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Author Topic:   Aliens and the Bible
Ihategod
Member (Idle past 4012 days)
Posts: 235
Joined: 08-15-2007


Message 1 of 147 (418186)
08-26-2007 9:32 PM


I've been watching some documentaries on UFO's and have become aware of the reality of UFO's. As for the aliens, I thought I would propose this to the intelligent folks at the EvC.

It seems that there is ample evidence for unmarked, unidentifiable aircraft.

http://www.ufoevidence.org/photographs/photohome.asp

vallee_phys_toc

http://www.temporaldoorway.com/ufo/report/561111.htm

However, the evidence for alien life is based on some perhaps sketchy hearsay and evidence.

My position is thus: There are many planets in many solar systems in Jesus' vast creation that house life in abundance and perhaps they are without the filth of sin.

So, here's why I think this.
In SCENES BEYOND THE GRAVE; VISIONS OF MARIETTA DAVIS an angel explains a view of the cosmos while on the way to the first heaven.
"'Behold,' said she, 'the countless, planetary hosts. Mark the rolling orbs, suns, and systems of suns, moving in silence and harmony. The vast expanse is occupied and peopled with universes, constructed in infinite wisdom. These are inhabited by holy beings, happy and immortal, though varied in degree of development and refined spirituality.'"

Also I think maybe when it says "Sons of God" in the bible this might refer to these other creatures.
http://whatsaiththescripture.com/Jehovah/About.Marietta.Davis.html

Tell me what you guys think, and propose other reading material that correlates or contradicts this theory. Is their life on other planets and if so what are the implications?

Please no rude arrogant remarks.

Edited by Admin, : Fix links.


Replies to this message:
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Admin
Director
Posts: 12565
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002


Message 2 of 147 (418487)
08-28-2007 12:37 PM


Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.
    
jar
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Posts: 30934
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 3 of 147 (418489)
08-28-2007 12:53 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Ihategod
08-26-2007 9:32 PM


Life somewhere other than Earth?
Is their life on other planets and if so what are the implications?

Honestly, no one knows yet.

However all the evidence seems to point to the things necessary for there to be life exist in abundance everywhere we look. In the only example we do have so far of life, this planet, everywhere we look we find life.

But so far there is no evidence of either intelligent or technological life anywhere in the universe other than Earth.

That does not mean it does not exist, only that so far there is no evidence that it does exist.

Based on the one sample we do have, this earth again, the odds that something like humans exist, critters that posses a high level of technology, the probabilities seem to be almost zero. In the four plus billion years the earth has existed and out of the literally billions of different life forms that exist and have existed, only one has developed a high level of technology and even that, only in the very most recent few decades has been at a level where detection might be possible.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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Taz
Member (Idle past 1274 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 4 of 147 (418494)
08-28-2007 1:39 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Ihategod
08-26-2007 9:32 PM


Before I say anything, I must explain something about myself. When I talk to people about trivial things, I tend to talk with the same attitude background as they do. For example, when I talk to jar, I will assume that the universe and the Earth are billions of years old. When I talk to a christian, I will assume that god created everything. When I talk to a christian creationist, I will assume that god created everything 6 thousand years ago.

With that said, the bible never really mentioned anything extraterrestrial other than angels and demons. If there are indeed UFO's or technologically advance alien races out there, we have to assume that they were not at the center of creation and that they are either angels or demons. Anything we can learn about them will have to be done through actual contact and communication.


Disclaimer:

Occasionally, owing to the deficiency of the English language, I have used he/him/his meaning he or she/him or her/his or her in order to avoid awkwardness of style.

He, him, and his are not intended as exclusively masculine pronouns. They may refer to either sex or to both sexes!


This message is a reply to:
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Phat
Member
Posts: 11652
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 5 of 147 (418500)
08-28-2007 2:11 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Ihategod
08-26-2007 9:32 PM


Demonic Manifestations
Given the low level of proability that Aliens could travel this far merely to scare some Kansas farmer and examine him for reasons unknown, and assuming that 10% of reported alien encounters could be said to be credible, many fundamentalists believe that aliens are in reality demonic manifestations.

(Fewer believe that they could be Angelic manifestations.

Now if only we can determine whether Angels and Demons exist! :rolleyes:


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Larni
Member
Posts: 3967
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 6 of 147 (418580)
08-29-2007 3:26 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Ihategod
08-26-2007 9:32 PM


I would be pretty strange if somewhere out there in space at some point in the universes history there were no other intelligent beings, but the chances of them coinciding with us (in terms of being near in space and time) is much smaller.

You say that you have become aware of the reality of UFO: and you go on to speculate that they are with out sin. What inferences do you draw from this?

Implications? Life on other planets would be a strong arguement for life being nothing special in that it can occur away from Earth. Earth becomes decentralised and 'one of many' locations of life. Also, having no non-earth life creation myth rather argues that if any creation myth was valid it would include non-earth life. As far as I can recall, the only creation myths that do this are the Sumerian and Scientology creation myths.

It also seems to me that if there are aliens flitting around the less sophistocated areas of the world they either would or would not have a conception of a god. Now, if they had a conception of a god but it did not match your conception of a god, what effect would that have?

Of course, if they turned up talking about Enki or Ea that would shake things up a bit.

Edited by Larni, : Alternative endings, deleted scenes, commentary by director/producer, interactive menu.


This message is a reply to:
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CK
Member (Idle past 2110 days)
Posts: 3221
Joined: 07-04-2004


Message 7 of 147 (418586)
08-29-2007 6:07 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by Phat
08-28-2007 2:11 PM


Re: Demonic Manifestations
Let's face it - if you have the technology to get across the universe, I'm pretty sure that you wouldn't be bothered if a few low-intelligence apes saw you.

It would be like us hiding from ants.


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nator
Member (Idle past 152 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 8 of 147 (418588)
08-29-2007 7:11 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Ihategod
08-26-2007 9:32 PM


Hi Vashgun,

This is just a brief post to invite you to participate in a thread that deals with the implications of your stance on the ToE.

I very much hope to see you here.

Edited by nator, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
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macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1910 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 9 of 147 (418630)
08-29-2007 1:21 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Ihategod
08-26-2007 9:32 PM


if there is life on other planets, i'm sure the implications with someday include war. we'll have this brilliant idea that they're out to get us and we'll try to annihilate them. happens all the time here, why would it be different with other planets?

if one were to assume the judaic creation myth(s) true and consider the implications of these myths on other planets, i'd assume that god would be sonsistent in his creation and create decision making creatures capable of becoming falible. and, i'd imagine they'd end up in the same boat we are. and maybe they'll declare war on us first.

the other possibility is that maybe they are without sin. if this is the case, we could introduce sin and death to them. or perhaps they are immune. the first would, i imagine, carry a great eternal toll.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Ihategod, posted 08-26-2007 9:32 PM Ihategod has not yet responded

  
Ihategod
Member (Idle past 4012 days)
Posts: 235
Joined: 08-15-2007


Message 10 of 147 (419307)
09-02-2007 1:34 AM


asdfk
The hypotheses are great keep 'em coming!

I noticed how no one has really entertained the idea of UFO's and read and experienced the links I have provided. This is classical evolutionary thought: If it sounds impossible, it is. Give no credence to that which is supernatural, etc.

Please leave your religion at the door on this topic and focus on the implications of the parameters set forth.


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ringo
Member
Posts: 15797
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 11 of 147 (419352)
09-02-2007 11:10 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by Ihategod
09-02-2007 1:34 AM


Vashgun writes:

Give no credence to that which is supernatural, etc.

If UFOs are photographable, how can they be supernatural?


“Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place” -- Joseph Goebbels
-------------
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Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC
This message is a reply to:
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nator
Member (Idle past 152 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 12 of 147 (419354)
09-02-2007 11:23 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Ihategod
08-26-2007 9:32 PM


Vashgun, I looked a the "best" flying saucer photographs from one of your links.

A number of them look like photos of things thrown into the air. Others are so blurry there is no way to tell what they are.

Also, how do you know any or all of them aren't just PhotoShop images?

Lastly, how do any of these images translate to the existence of life on other planets? That is intelligent, and far more technologically advanced than we are? And can more or less defy the principles of physics?

quote:
Please no rude arrogant remarks.

Physician, heal thyself.


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Ihategod
Member (Idle past 4012 days)
Posts: 235
Joined: 08-15-2007


Message 13 of 147 (419625)
09-03-2007 9:21 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by nator
09-02-2007 11:23 AM


http://youtube.com/watch?v=jUGnspymZto

Also, how do you know any or all of them aren't just PhotoShop images?

Some of course have been around before the induction of the photoshop program.

Lastly, how do any of these images translate to the existence of life on other planets? That is intelligent, and far more technologically advanced than we are? And can more or less defy the principles of physics?

If it is flying saucers, that can move extremely fast as is documented , then it would be logical to assume that those who can defy the laws of physics and gravity must be relatively intelligent.

Check this out:
http://www.ufoarea.com/video_fastwalkers2006.html


This message is a reply to:
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Taz
Member (Idle past 1274 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 14 of 147 (419630)
09-03-2007 10:03 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by Ihategod
09-02-2007 1:34 AM


Re: asdfk
Vashgun writes:

I noticed how no one has really entertained the idea of UFO's and read and experienced the links I have provided. This is classical evolutionary thought: If it sounds impossible, it is. Give no credence to that which is supernatural, etc.


Let me be frank. The reason most of us do not persue the so-called UFO phenomenon is because it's a dead-end road to take, just like ID. Here is why, and I'll explain it in a couple sentences or so.

So, let us assume that these flying saucers (aka UFO's) are indeed alien crafts and the fact that these aliens have not simply landed somewhere with a lot of people and say "I come in peace" or some other greetings should tell us that they are sufficiently advance enough to avoid detection by our current technology. Now what?

Assuming that these are alien crafts (when I say alien, I mean extraterrestrial intelligence), how does it help us to advance our knowledge by assuming it without anything else to go on beside blurry images and incredible abduction and anal probing stories?

The scientific approach to this phenomenon, like any other phenomenon, is to scrutinize it and see if it stands up against proper scrutiny.

Please leave your religion at the door on this topic and focus on the implications of the parameters set forth.

Ok, if you insist that we leave our "religion" at the door, perhaps you should do the same? How do you know these "beings" are angelic and perfect in nature?


Disclaimer:

Occasionally, owing to the deficiency of the English language, I have used he/him/his meaning he or she/him or her/his or her in order to avoid awkwardness of style.

He, him, and his are not intended as exclusively masculine pronouns. They may refer to either sex or to both sexes!


This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by Ihategod, posted 09-02-2007 1:34 AM Ihategod has not yet responded

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 15 of 147 (419655)
09-04-2007 1:19 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Ihategod
08-26-2007 9:32 PM


Implausibility and Improbability
Hello, Vashgun:

...have become aware of the reality of UFO's

What reality is this? Before you can become 'aware of the reality' of something, that something must first be real. Now, speaking in the simplest sense of the word UFO—unidentified flying object—I suppose you could say that there are indeed things in the sky flying around that aren't often identifiable. But in the more specific meaning of UFO—alien visitor spacecraft hovering over Earth—, I highly doubt such things exist. We've all seen photos like yours before, so those certainly aren't going to convince us. No; you'll need images that are a little better than blobs on blue backgrounds that could just be scratches on the lens for all we can tell. You're also going to have to find more credible sources for your argument, since the majority of UFO sighters are sleep-deprived pilots and the severely uneducated. No evidence of alien spacecraft has yet stood up to the scrutiny required to allow us to scientifically declare them as real.

Is their life on other planets and if so what are the implications?

I'm going to give you some quotes from my physics text book of last year (good thing I didn't sell it, yet), and hopefully it should help you understand the improbability of your argument:

quote:
First, life probably exists all over the universe; second, nearly all of it is probably single-cellular. But we're unable to form any conclusions about intelligent life, or technological life.1
...
[It] is much easier for simple single-celled life to originate than it is for that life to develop into multicellular forms. Indeed, some scientists have argued that, while simple life forms are common in the universe, complex life is rare because it depends on many special factors.2

The author then goes on to analyse a series of these factors and concludes from them:

quote:
So it is plausible that intelligence should eventually appear on most planets having multicellular life. Bust most experts recognize that the great majority of life-supporting planets probably harbor only single-celled organisms. So a plausible high estimate might be that intelligence arises on 1% of those planets harboring life.... Combining these figures with our previous estimates, our heigh estimate is that intelligent life has arisen at some 2 × 108 (200 million) places in our galaxy...3

Now, that is just a high estimate regarding the existence of extraterrestrial intelligent life. But why is it not likely to have visited our little rock? The author of my textbook gives the following reason:

quote:
[Enrico] Fermi suggested only three plausible reasons for the absence of visitations: Either (1) interstellar travel is impossible, (2) interstellar travel is always judged not to be worth the effort, or (3) technological civilizations don't survive long enough for interstellar travel to happen. But Fermi and his friends that at lunch that day felt that interstellar travel is possible.... The second suggestion seems plausible only if we assume that the number of technological civilizations is very small. For if there have been, as Fermi believed, many such civilizations, then it's implausible that every one of them would regard space travel and colonization to be not worth the effort. If even a single civilization opted for colonization, the galaxy should be entirely colonized soon (within only a few million years) thereafter.
Fermi's third suggestion, that technological civilizations don't survive long enough for interstellar travel to happen, is called the short-lifetime hypothesis.... Our galaxy is about 13 billion years old.
So stars formed, burned, and died in our galaxy for 8 billion years before our 5-billion-year-old sun was born. If there have been previous technological civilizations, most of them should have become technological long ago.... [Let's] assume, for illustration, that technological civilizations developed on 1000 planets, a number that Fermi would have considered plausible. If 1000 civilizations have cropped up at various times during the entire 13-billion-year history of our galaxy, then on average one would start up every 13 million years.... This means that the most recent technological civilization preceding ours would, on average, have started some 13 million years ago! ... Unless the typical technological civilization survives for millions of years, we would expect that no other such civilizations are still around, even assuming that many have arisen.4

The author then discusses the available evidence—us—and decides that given the inability of our own species to fix problems that are bound to lead to our extinction, it's rather probable to believe that there is little, if any, life in our galaxy old enough for "interstellar travel," either having gone extinct long ago, or having arisen too recently to be much further advanced than us.5

For all of these reasons, I'd say that "the reality of UFO's" is anything but.

My position is thus: There are many planets in many solar systems in Jesus' vast creation that house life in abundance and perhaps they are without the filth of sin.

Yep, we've established that there are many planets with life in abundance, but we were only able to show that life to be single-cellular, which would make me wonder if it's really possible to judge the sinfulness of a bacterium. And you really haven't presented any convincing evidence to the contrary—either showing intelligent life, or showing God to care about bacteria.

Also I think maybe when it says "Sons of God" in the bible this might refer to these other creatures.
http://whatsaiththescripture.com/Jehovah/About.Marietta.Davis.html

What evidence do you have that the Sons of God are anything other than the followers of God in general? The source you linked to doesn't support any such notion that they are specifically extraterrestrial life forms. Do you have any other evidence that would lead us to believe that the writers of the Bible were referring to extraterrestrials when they wrote "Sons of God"?

So, here's why I think this.
In SCENES BEYOND THE GRAVE; VISIONS OF MARIETTA DAVIS an angel explains a view of the cosmos while on the way to the first heaven.
"'Behold,' said she, 'the countless, planetary hosts. Mark the rolling orbs, suns, and systems of suns, moving in silence and harmony. The vast expanse is occupied and peopled with universes, constructed in infinite wisdom. These are inhabited by holy beings, happy and immortal, though varied in degree of development and refined spirituality.'"

As for the reasons I've cited above, where are all these beings? Hell, if these creatures are immortal, then the short-lifetime hypothesis shouldn't have any meaning to their existence and they should've been here by now. Not just in the blips and dots that you talk of, but in an all out massive encounter. When the Europeans came across the Americas, they didn't keep showing up one ship at a time; they sent word back and their relatives came in massive numbers. Of all the useless rocks in the area, don't you think us and our planet would at least interest the aliens enough to come and investigate on a little bit larger of a scale?

Now, I don't want to be seen as rude or arrogant, so instead of calling your idea all-out malarkey, I'll just say that it's seemingly improbable ;).

Jon

__________
1 Art Hobson, Physics: Concepts and Connections 4th ed., 282.
2 Ibid., 281.
3 Ibid., 281.
4 Ibid., 287.
5 Ibid., 288.


In considering the Origin of Species, it is quite conceivable that a naturalist... might come to the conclusion that each species had not been independently created, but had descended, like varieties, from other species. - Charles Darwin On the Origin of Species
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ ____ _ _ _ _ _ _ _

En el mundo hay multitud de idiomas, y cada uno tiene su propio significado. - I Corintios 14:10
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ ____ _ _ _ _ _ _ _

A devout people with its back to the wall can be pushed deeper and deeper into hardening religious nativism, in the end even preferring national suicide to religious compromise. - Colin Wells Sailing from Byzantium


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