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Author Topic:   Aliens and the Bible
anglagard
Member
Posts: 2184
From: Socorro, New Mexico USA
Joined: 03-18-2006


Message 106 of 147 (420791)
09-09-2007 3:29 PM
Reply to: Message 103 by Ihategod
09-09-2007 2:59 PM


Skeptic? You Bet!
HEWG writes:

You are really annoying.

Thanks, I like being compared to a gadfly.

Supplementing a definition for your argument is weak and pathetic. How does evolution infer that things progress yet get worse? That's oxymoronic.

From: http://mw1.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/evolution

quote:
3: the process of working out or developing

This definition is one that may be applicable to linguistics. Thanks for the unexpected support of my position in this matter.

there is no way that anyone else can distinguish your 'flights of fancy' from the ravings of an inmate at a lunatic asylum.

Under what standard are you calling upon to judge anybody? How do you know that people who experience paranormal activity are lunatics? I think your uber-skepticism is lunacy.

I did not say that anyone who thinks they experience paranormal activity is a lunatic. I said that without any supporting evidence how can one honestly tell the difference.

This is what I mean by reading comprehension problems.

My mother claims to have ESP and gets messages from aliens. Based upon this, she has been diagnosed as having dementia. She is confined to a rest home to keep her from wandering off and getting run over by a truck. Therefore the diagnosis is for her own physical safety.

If someone else claims to have ESP and gets messages from aliens, what condition am I supposed to compare this to based upon my personal experience?

Not all claims concerning the nature of reality are equally valid according to human experience and history. Agree or disagree?


Read not to contradict and confute, not to believe and take for granted, not to find talk and discourse, but to weigh and consider - Francis Bacon

The more we understand particular things, the more we understand God - Spinoza


This message is a reply to:
 Message 103 by Ihategod, posted 09-09-2007 2:59 PM Ihategod has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 107 by Ihategod, posted 09-09-2007 4:54 PM anglagard has responded

    
Ihategod
Member (Idle past 3925 days)
Posts: 235
Joined: 08-15-2007


Message 107 of 147 (420812)
09-09-2007 4:54 PM
Reply to: Message 106 by anglagard
09-09-2007 3:29 PM


Re: Skeptic? You Bet!
quote:3: the process of working out or developing

This definition is one that may be applicable to linguistics. Thanks for the unexpected support of my position in this matter.

When you originally used evolution, you meant the progression of the language. Which was what I called into question, you found a small out,
congratulations.

http://mw1.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/develop

Evolution means literally to progress. I would like to know how something can evolve yet digress?

I said that without any supporting evidence how can one honestly tell the difference.

So we should not believe anybody that doesn't have supporting evidence? This would be a sad existence devoid of trusting relationships.

My mother claims to have ESP and gets messages from aliens. Based upon this, she has been diagnosed as having dementia. She is confined to a rest home to keep her from wandering off and getting run over by a truck. Therefore the diagnosis is for her own physical safety.

The story sets up another straw man, in that you seem to be indicating that all people who see things are labeled lunatics for health reasons. However, most people who claim supernatural experiences (not just alien encounters) are not a liability to a certain community.

If someone else claims to have ESP and gets messages from aliens, what condition am I supposed to compare this to based upon my personal experience?

Yes, because like the God you try to be you know everything. Nothing comes to the truth except through anglagard.

Not all claims concerning the nature of reality are equally valid according to human experience and history. Agree or disagree?

I agree and disagree because I think I know what your implying. It's like the argument that a person needs to be validated by a certain university to be able to do science. And a person needs to have a certain IQ and reasoning ability to be able to have any actual experience and that experience needs to be validated to be considered. Is this what you are implying?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 106 by anglagard, posted 09-09-2007 3:29 PM anglagard has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 108 by anglagard, posted 09-09-2007 5:55 PM Ihategod has responded
 Message 109 by molbiogirl, posted 09-09-2007 8:03 PM Ihategod has not yet responded
 Message 114 by Dr Adequate, posted 09-10-2007 1:12 PM Ihategod has not yet responded

  
anglagard
Member
Posts: 2184
From: Socorro, New Mexico USA
Joined: 03-18-2006


Message 108 of 147 (420834)
09-09-2007 5:55 PM
Reply to: Message 107 by Ihategod
09-09-2007 4:54 PM


Re: Skeptic? You Bet!
HEWG writes:

When you originally used evolution, you meant the progression of the language.

The evolution of English from old, to middle, to modern, may be termed a progression I guess as long as it is understood there is no grounds for a subjective judgment of 'better' or 'worse' and there is no final goal as a result of this progression.

Evolution means literally to progress.

To you maybe, but there are several definitions depending upon context.

I would like to know how something can evolve yet digress?

This thread is evolving, that is changing over time due to environmental factors, yet this specific topic appears to be a digression. :)

So we should not believe anybody that doesn't have supporting evidence? This would be a sad existence devoid of trusting relationships.

Trust is earned, through evidence of trustworthiness. Not everyone feels empty because they didn't buy the Brooklyn Bridge from that well-dressed, smooth-talkin' guy.

The story sets up another straw man, in that you seem to be indicating that all people who see things are labeled lunatics for health reasons. However, most people who claim supernatural experiences (not just alien encounters) are not a liability to a certain community.

Well, if someone claims to see something extraordinary, like fairies, they better have more evidence then their unsupported claim of personal trustworthiness for me to consider them anything other than delusional or dishonest. But of course that is my skeptical mind at work, the one that is not taken in by bridge salesmen.

Yes, because like the God you try to be you know everything. Nothing comes to the truth except through anglagard.

I have never claimed to be God or to know everything. I only claim that it is better to use critical thinking to evaluate the reliability of information rather than just believe every outlandish claim regardless of evidence.

Rather you seem to claim to know what I think even when I explicitly deny that is my position. I say you are the one claiming such great and godlike psychic powers, you know what I think without me having ever said anything at all about the subject, such as when you claimed I believe humans are 'better' than aliens.

I agree and disagree because I think I know what your implying. It's like the argument that a person needs to be validated by a certain university to be able to do science.

A person has to use the methods of science to do science, it's as simple as that.

And a person needs to have a certain IQ and reasoning ability to be able to have any actual experience and that experience needs to be validated to be considered. Is this what you are implying?

No, I am saying that anyone who claims to own the Brooklyn Bridge better not only have the deed but also the evidence to convince my lawyer they actually own said bridge.

But thanks for asking what I think for a change instead of telling me what I think.

Edited by anglagard, : remove extra word


Read not to contradict and confute, not to believe and take for granted, not to find talk and discourse, but to weigh and consider - Francis Bacon

The more we understand particular things, the more we understand God - Spinoza


This message is a reply to:
 Message 107 by Ihategod, posted 09-09-2007 4:54 PM Ihategod has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 110 by Ihategod, posted 09-10-2007 12:32 AM anglagard has responded

    
molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 536 days)
Posts: 1909
From: MO
Joined: 06-06-2007


Message 109 of 147 (420867)
09-09-2007 8:03 PM
Reply to: Message 107 by Ihategod
09-09-2007 4:54 PM


Linguistic Evolution
When you originally used evolution, you meant the progression of the language. Which was what I called into question, you found a small out,
congratulations.

Linguistic evolution is a field of study.

wiki writes:

Evolutionary linguistics is the scientific study of the origins and development of language.

OFF TOPIC - Please Do Not Respond to this message by continuing in this vein.
Take comments concerning this warning to the Moderation Thread.
AdminPD

Edited by AdminPD, : Warning


This message is a reply to:
 Message 107 by Ihategod, posted 09-09-2007 4:54 PM Ihategod has not yet responded

  
Ihategod
Member (Idle past 3925 days)
Posts: 235
Joined: 08-15-2007


Message 110 of 147 (420882)
09-10-2007 12:32 AM
Reply to: Message 108 by anglagard
09-09-2007 5:55 PM


Re: Skeptic? You Bet!
We can discuss the evolution of language on another thread.

Trust is earned, through evidence of trustworthiness. Not everyone feels empty because they didn't buy the Brooklyn Bridge from that well-dressed, smooth-talkin' guy.

So should I screen the fireman that comes to rescue my family for his intent? The intent of Christianity is to better a person through knowledge and interaction with the Creator. Why reject this? Because of your perceptions of physical reality which are fundamentally misguided?

Well, if someone claims to see something extraordinary, like fairies, they better have more evidence then their unsupported claim of personal trustworthiness for me to consider them anything other than delusional or dishonest. But of course that is my skeptical mind at work, the one that is not taken in by bridge salesmen.

Because you think you know how reality works? If everyone saw fairies but you, would you think your the one who was delusional? I've experienced the reality of God, I understand why people don't want to believe. I used to be one of those who didn't believe until I saw, and then the wool was pulled from my eyes. You are the one taken by the bridge salesman, not me.

No, I am saying that anyone who claims to own the Brooklyn Bridge better not only have the deed but also the evidence to convince my lawyer they actually own said bridge.

Classic. What end is there in this type of skepticism? What do you gain by trying to prove everything?
Mark 8:36 For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?

I'm not trying to pull teeth, but sincerely want people to know that the possibilities are endless. Why question when you can believe? If something disproves your faith move on in humility.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 108 by anglagard, posted 09-09-2007 5:55 PM anglagard has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 111 by crashfrog, posted 09-10-2007 1:50 AM Ihategod has responded
 Message 128 by anglagard, posted 09-11-2007 10:26 PM Ihategod has responded

  
crashfrog
Inactive Member


Message 111 of 147 (420887)
09-10-2007 1:50 AM
Reply to: Message 110 by Ihategod
09-10-2007 12:32 AM


Re: Skeptic? You Bet!
Why question when you can believe?

You people just can't help it, can you? Can't help but give away the game. You don't believe because you know; you believe because you want it to be true.

You've revealed everything, HEWG; your belief is nothing more than a cynical exercise in wishful thinking.

Why question when we can believe? Because only the profoundly incurious and weak think that faith is better than inquiry.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 110 by Ihategod, posted 09-10-2007 12:32 AM Ihategod has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 112 by Ihategod, posted 09-10-2007 12:19 PM crashfrog has not yet responded

  
Ihategod
Member (Idle past 3925 days)
Posts: 235
Joined: 08-15-2007


Message 112 of 147 (420954)
09-10-2007 12:19 PM
Reply to: Message 111 by crashfrog
09-10-2007 1:50 AM


Re: Skeptic? You Bet!
You people just can't help it, can you? Can't help but give away the game. You don't believe because you know; you believe because you want it to be true.

I wouldn't believe if I didn't know. You are the one who lacks the experience. If you knew what I truly spoke of, you wouldn't be arguing against.

Oh how I desperately want God to exist! Is that what you think? Friend I would be glad to believe that life is meaningless and there won't be a judgement again. I thought once, that was freedom and the tools and fools in religion were delusional. Then I had an experience like the deepest love and an ocean of peace wash me of my sins. It was beautiful, and my eyes were opened for the first time. And when I came back down to earth and looked around, it was like Plato's cave. No one will believe me, hell sometimes I don't think anyone can, but it's part of the responsibility to God to witness.

I don't want it to be true anymore than you do, however, it is and it is a tough reality. But knowing that justice will eventually prevail is a wonderful thought. Faith is the most important element of human existence. We can move mountains, lift cars, walk on water, heal others, levitate, do all of these things. Skepticism only begets lack of healthy spirituality and a darkness to the fullness of Him who made us in his image.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 111 by crashfrog, posted 09-10-2007 1:50 AM crashfrog has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 113 by AdminPD, posted 09-10-2007 12:43 PM Ihategod has not yet responded

  
AdminPD
Inactive Administrator


Message 113 of 147 (420961)
09-10-2007 12:43 PM
Reply to: Message 112 by Ihategod
09-10-2007 12:19 PM


Warning - Topic Drift
Participants please review Message 1 for a refresher on the topic question:

Is their life on other planets and if so what are the implications?

Please stick to the topic and argue the position not the person.

Also a reminder that this thread is in the science forum and evidence is crucial for support or at least reasoned argumentation.

Please direct any comments concerning this Admin msg to the Moderation Thread.

Any response in this thread will receive a 24 hour timeout.

Thank you Purple


This message is a reply to:
 Message 112 by Ihategod, posted 09-10-2007 12:19 PM Ihategod has not yet responded

  
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 16035
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 114 of 147 (420966)
09-10-2007 1:12 PM
Reply to: Message 107 by Ihategod
09-09-2007 4:54 PM


Evolution means literally to progress.

No it doesn't.

I would like to know how something can evolve yet digress?

And apparently you don't know what "digress" means either.

It means to go off topic.

Which reminds me ... those aliens in the Bible?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 107 by Ihategod, posted 09-09-2007 4:54 PM Ihategod has not yet responded

  
ElOne
Junior Member (Idle past 3938 days)
Posts: 23
Joined: 09-05-2007


Message 115 of 147 (421151)
09-11-2007 10:14 AM
Reply to: Message 88 by Shtop
09-07-2007 6:01 PM


Re: Aliens and the flood
Please explain how PE is an indication of alien intervention when life on earth gets in trouble. Don't forget to quote relevant Bible verses.
The mechanism of DNA itself is very complex, the how and why is still not understood. It took a lot of "study and invention" to uncover what we know. Both of these are indications of "intelligence". But... once "discovered" it can be manipulated "relatively" easily and "relatively" simply. Looking at the fossil evidence, it doesn't seem to indicate that manipulation took place continually over long periods of time, slowly changing specia through adaptation. Instead, it seems to indicate, as PE asserts, that once a species was established, nothing happened for millions of years, until change was "in order"; for whatever reasons; including a global disaster, that may have killed off the "reigning" specia. Darwin did show that ToE is valid for making changes within a species for its survival.
The death of most of the specia on earth "would" open opportunities for the fortunate survivors and allow, if the opportunity existed, for them to increase their numbers exponentially. This exponential growth does not logically lead to the creation of new species. There has to be another mechanism involved. And we are now seeing that chromosomal manipulation shows evidence of being a valid alternative. The longevity gene has been discovered in mice; manipulating it is a matter of turning a gene on or off. (For Biblical reference: Gen 6: 3 where the longevity gene was switched off).
Another indication that "alien" intervention is involved is the distribution of chromosomes in different animal species. If it were a development from the simple to the more complex, the number would steadily increase as the new species became more complex. But that is not the case. Aulacantha, a protozoa, has 1600 chromosomes; domestic and wild dogs have 50, 64 and 73 (depending on the species); wild and domestic cattle have 12, 20 and 60 (again depending on the species). Man has 46!! How can ToE account for these anomalies? It can be explained by "gene splicing" to create new species, which would require intelligence and technology. Hence, alien intervention. (Another Biblical reference: Gen. 1: 20, 23 and 24).

Edited by ElOne, : I didnt use the proper syntax for quoting text


This message is a reply to:
 Message 88 by Shtop, posted 09-07-2007 6:01 PM Shtop has not yet responded

    
ElOne
Junior Member (Idle past 3938 days)
Posts: 23
Joined: 09-05-2007


Message 116 of 147 (421155)
09-11-2007 10:31 AM
Reply to: Message 82 by Vacate
09-07-2007 11:55 AM


Re: Aliens and the flood
Do you have any proof that we are near "the end", if not then how do you know that this language, at this time is conductive to a correct interpretation? (or a better understood interpretation of meaning
Biblical scholars are looking all the time for signs and post them on the web. They are not all going to be these "earth shaking" signs that cannot be mistaken. Some are going to be "subtle". To me the most absurd sign is the one predicting that the lion will lie down with the lamb. Everyone, including me, thought this was going to be an overall change in animal behavior; but not necessarily so. Last year a wildlife photographer in Africa witnessed a female lion that saved a young goat (lamb) when its mother had been killed. The lioness protected the lamb from other lions for about two weeks before she was distracted and the lamb was killed. Everything about this event goes against the natural predator instinct of the lioness. Whether you like it or not it fullfills Scriptural Prophecy.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by Vacate, posted 09-07-2007 11:55 AM Vacate has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 117 by jar, posted 09-11-2007 10:56 AM ElOne has responded
 Message 126 by Vacate, posted 09-11-2007 2:05 PM ElOne has not yet responded
 Message 127 by Dr Adequate, posted 09-11-2007 9:01 PM ElOne has not yet responded

    
jar
Member
Posts: 30845
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 117 of 147 (421163)
09-11-2007 10:56 AM
Reply to: Message 116 by ElOne
09-11-2007 10:31 AM


the Mental Masturbation called Biblical Prophecy
Except of course for the fact that a young goat is a kid not a lamb and the authors of the original story also differentiated between sheep and goats. The fact that some apocryphal story about a lioness and a kid could be twisted to claim it fulfills some prophecy of the "Lion lying down with a Lamb" just shows the absurd lengths and metal gymnastics that folk will go to to claim prophecy fulfillment.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 116 by ElOne, posted 09-11-2007 10:31 AM ElOne has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 118 by ElOne, posted 09-11-2007 11:17 AM jar has responded

  
ElOne
Junior Member (Idle past 3938 days)
Posts: 23
Joined: 09-05-2007


Message 118 of 147 (421165)
09-11-2007 11:17 AM
Reply to: Message 117 by jar
09-11-2007 10:56 AM


Re: the Mental Masturbation called Biblical Prophecy
Except of course for the fact that a young goat is a kid not a lamb and the authors of the original story also differentiated between sheep and goats.
The Hebrew word interpreted as lamb is hX translitersted Seh given the Strong's number: 7716 OT and makes no "distinction" between sheep or goat, just a member of a flock. Your ignorance is astounding. Atleast if you are going to take a stand on something provide "some" credible evidence. Name calling, ridicule and intimidation are not evidence.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 117 by jar, posted 09-11-2007 10:56 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 119 by jar, posted 09-11-2007 11:25 AM ElOne has responded

    
jar
Member
Posts: 30845
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 119 of 147 (421168)
09-11-2007 11:25 AM
Reply to: Message 118 by ElOne
09-11-2007 11:17 AM


Re: the Mental Masturbation called Biblical Prophecy
Sorry but that does not even stand up to reason. The folk writing the Bible certainly knew the difference between Sheep and Goats and they differentiated between them all the time.

But the gymnastics goes even further in accepting some apocryphal story and using it as a foundation to support a preconceived version of a story.

This is also the same issue as the Aliens in the Bible. It is "Theology based on any shit I can make up."


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 118 by ElOne, posted 09-11-2007 11:17 AM ElOne has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 120 by ElOne, posted 09-11-2007 11:41 AM jar has responded

  
ElOne
Junior Member (Idle past 3938 days)
Posts: 23
Joined: 09-05-2007


Message 120 of 147 (421169)
09-11-2007 11:41 AM
Reply to: Message 119 by jar
09-11-2007 11:25 AM


Re: the Mental Masturbation called Biblical Prophecy
How can it not stand up to reason? I used the original Hebrew word and its meaning. You havent shown any evidence to nullify my assertion! Just your unwillingness to accept it. Show some evidence to suport your claim.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 119 by jar, posted 09-11-2007 11:25 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 121 by jar, posted 09-11-2007 11:46 AM ElOne has responded
 Message 122 by ringo, posted 09-11-2007 11:59 AM ElOne has not yet responded

    
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