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Author Topic:   Which Version of the Bible is the Word of God?
PaulK
Member
Posts: 12442
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 121 of 174 (499288)
02-18-2009 4:22 AM
Reply to: Message 119 by Peg
02-18-2009 3:30 AM


RE: Which One
quote:

it was at the temple in Jerusalem where many scrolls were located...perhaps even some of the original writings. Josephus would have been talking about these scrolls and the christians would have been quoting passages from these scrolls also

At the time Josephus was writing the Temple had been destroyed. There wouldn't have been anything left there.

And we know that Christians quoted from Greek translations, not from any "original" texts.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 119 by Peg, posted 02-18-2009 3:30 AM Peg has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 122 by Peg, posted 02-19-2009 6:42 AM PaulK has responded

    
Peg
Member (Idle past 2281 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 122 of 174 (499543)
02-19-2009 6:42 AM
Reply to: Message 121 by PaulK
02-18-2009 4:22 AM


RE: Which One
At the time Josephus was writing the Temple had been destroyed.

the temple was destroyed in 70CE by the romans... Josephus reports that it was completely burned to the ground and the artifacts inside were carried off by Roman soldiers as booty

so there were scrolls there before this time....these would be the scrolls that Jesus read from when he did his public readings...there is also evidence that the greek septuagaint version was in use because the Apostle Paul evidently uses this version in many of his quotes in his writings but not all.... this is evidence that more then that translation was in use at the time.

a portion of Isiah was found among the Dead Sea Scrolls written in a pre-Masoretic Hebrew script and has been dated toward the end of the second century B.C.E.

so these early scrolls were obviously in use in Jesus day.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 121 by PaulK, posted 02-18-2009 4:22 AM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 123 by PaulK, posted 02-19-2009 6:54 AM Peg has responded

    
PaulK
Member
Posts: 12442
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 123 of 174 (499546)
02-19-2009 6:54 AM
Reply to: Message 122 by Peg
02-19-2009 6:42 AM


RE: Which One
quote:

the temple was destroyed in 70CE by the romans... Josephus reports that it was completely burned to the ground and the artifacts inside were carried off by Roman soldiers as booty

So your assertion that Josephus was writing about scrolls kept at the Temple was false.

quote:

so there were scrolls there before this time....these would be the scrolls that Jesus read from when he did his public readings...

Really ? Where is your evidence that Jesus ever obtained a scroll from the Temple ?

quote:

...there is also evidence that the greek septuagaint version was in use because the Apostle Paul evidently uses this version in many of his quotes in his writings but not all.... this is evidence that more then that translation was in use at the time

I think that you'll find that all early Christian writers used the Septuagint.

You do realise that the Septuagint differs from the Masoretic text - and not just as a result of the translation ?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 122 by Peg, posted 02-19-2009 6:42 AM Peg has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 124 by Peg, posted 02-19-2009 6:51 PM PaulK has responded

    
Peg
Member (Idle past 2281 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 124 of 174 (499683)
02-19-2009 6:51 PM
Reply to: Message 123 by PaulK
02-19-2009 6:54 AM


RE: Which One
PaulK writes:

So your assertion that Josephus was writing about scrolls kept at the Temple was false.

not at all

the scrolls were housed there for centuries before the place was destroyed in 70ce

PaulK writes:

Really ? Where is your evidence that Jesus ever obtained a scroll from the Temple ?

In the Jewish synagogues there was a public reading of a portion of the Law on the Sabbath and they still do this today.
It was Jesus custom to do this just as all other male jews did it.

Luke 4:16 'And he came to Naz′a·reth, where he had been reared; and, according to his custom on the sabbath day, he entered into the synagogue, and he stood up to read. 17 So the scroll of the prophet Isaiah was handed him...'

Obviously scrolls were available for public readings...otherwise they would not have had public readings.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 123 by PaulK, posted 02-19-2009 6:54 AM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 125 by PaulK, posted 02-20-2009 1:40 AM Peg has responded

    
PaulK
Member
Posts: 12442
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 125 of 174 (499729)
02-20-2009 1:40 AM
Reply to: Message 124 by Peg
02-19-2009 6:51 PM


RE: Which One
quote:

not at all

the scrolls were housed there for centuries before the place was destroyed in 70ce


That doesn't mean that they were still there AFTER 70ce, when Josephus was writing.
Don't you think that the fact that the Temple was a burnt-out ruin makes it an unlikely place to keep valuable scrolls ?

quote:

In the Jewish synagogues there was a public reading of a portion of the Law on the Sabbath and they still do this today.
It was Jesus custom to do this just as all other male jews did it.

The scrolls used today don't come from the Temple. As far as I know they are usually kept at the synagogue in question. What makes you think that it was any different in Jesus' day ?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 124 by Peg, posted 02-19-2009 6:51 PM Peg has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 126 by Peg, posted 02-20-2009 2:10 AM PaulK has responded

    
Peg
Member (Idle past 2281 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 126 of 174 (499731)
02-20-2009 2:10 AM
Reply to: Message 125 by PaulK
02-20-2009 1:40 AM


RE: Which One
PaulK writes:

That doesn't mean that they were still there AFTER 70ce, when Josephus was writing.
Don't you think that the fact that the Temple was a burnt-out ruin makes it an unlikely place to keep valuable scrolls ?

i dont beleive i ever said that they were there after.

we are talking about Jesus day which was up to 33 CE... that is before 70ce

and biblical scrolls were not only kept at jerusalem, they had synagogues all over the place... i dont know what your point is


This message is a reply to:
 Message 125 by PaulK, posted 02-20-2009 1:40 AM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 127 by PaulK, posted 02-20-2009 2:21 AM Peg has responded

    
PaulK
Member
Posts: 12442
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 127 of 174 (499732)
02-20-2009 2:21 AM
Reply to: Message 126 by Peg
02-20-2009 2:10 AM


RE: Which One
quote:

i dont beleive i ever said that they were there after.

we are talking about Jesus day which was up to 33 CE... that is before 70ce


Wrong. We are talking about the time when Josephus wrote the work in question, That is AFTER 70CE.

quote:

and biblical scrolls were not only kept at jerusalem, they had synagogues all over the place... i dont know what your point is

My point is that there is no reason to believe your assertion that Jesus read from a scroll taken from the Temple.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 126 by Peg, posted 02-20-2009 2:10 AM Peg has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 128 by Peg, posted 02-20-2009 2:56 AM PaulK has responded

    
Peg
Member (Idle past 2281 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 128 of 174 (499739)
02-20-2009 2:56 AM
Reply to: Message 127 by PaulK
02-20-2009 2:21 AM


RE: Which One
why dont you ask the jews
This message is a reply to:
 Message 127 by PaulK, posted 02-20-2009 2:21 AM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 129 by PaulK, posted 02-20-2009 3:49 AM Peg has responded

    
PaulK
Member
Posts: 12442
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 129 of 174 (499742)
02-20-2009 3:49 AM
Reply to: Message 128 by Peg
02-20-2009 2:56 AM


RE: Which One
quote:

why dont you ask the jews

I have a better idea. Why don't you just admit that you were wrong.

Josephus was not talking about scrolls stored at the Temple, because he was speaking of the situation as it was at the time he wrote - and the Temple had been destroyed by then (your OWN date for the time of writing is c100CE).

It is highly unlikely that Jesus read from a scroll held at the Temple - and nothing in the Bible says that he ever did.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 128 by Peg, posted 02-20-2009 2:56 AM Peg has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 130 by Peg, posted 02-20-2009 4:36 AM PaulK has responded

    
Peg
Member (Idle past 2281 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 130 of 174 (499745)
02-20-2009 4:36 AM
Reply to: Message 129 by PaulK
02-20-2009 3:49 AM


RE: Which One
PaulK writes:

Josephus was not talking about scrolls stored at the Temple, because he was speaking of the situation as it was at the time he wrote - and the Temple had been destroyed by then (your OWN date for the time of writing is c100CE).

It is highly unlikely that Jesus read from a scroll held at the Temple - and nothing in the Bible says that he ever did.

You do understand what a historian is
you know that historians write history

here is a link, where you can read his writings
http://www.sacred-texts.com/jud/josephus/

I quote a scripture earlier that records that Jesus had the custom of reading aloud at the temple on the sabbath

look into some jewish sites, you'll see they still do this today.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 129 by PaulK, posted 02-20-2009 3:49 AM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 131 by PaulK, posted 02-20-2009 4:55 AM Peg has responded

    
PaulK
Member
Posts: 12442
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 131 of 174 (499746)
02-20-2009 4:55 AM
Reply to: Message 130 by Peg
02-20-2009 4:36 AM


RE: Which One
quote:

You do understand what a historian is
you know that historians write history

Josephus was not just a historian. Now if you want to provide more of the quote to support your claim then please go ahead. But don't expect me to look through all Jospehus work to try to find evidence that you should have provided in the first place.

quote:

I quote a scripture earlier that records that Jesus had the custom of reading aloud at the temple on the sabbath

No you didn't. It had him reading aloud in a synagogue, not the Temple.

Instead of making up excuse after excuse to try to pretend you are right why don't you just make the effort to get things right in the first place ?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 130 by Peg, posted 02-20-2009 4:36 AM Peg has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 132 by Peg, posted 02-20-2009 5:43 AM PaulK has responded
 Message 135 by anglagard, posted 02-21-2009 3:40 AM PaulK has not yet responded

    
Peg
Member (Idle past 2281 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 132 of 174 (499748)
02-20-2009 5:43 AM
Reply to: Message 131 by PaulK
02-20-2009 4:55 AM


RE: Which One
PaulK writes:

No you didn't. It had him reading aloud in a synagogue, not the Temple.

Instead of making up excuse after excuse to try to pretend you are right why don't you just make the effort to get things right in the first place ?

my apologies on that one, your right, it was at Nazareth that the scripture i quoted was in reference to

while the bible may be inerrant, i certainly am not


This message is a reply to:
 Message 131 by PaulK, posted 02-20-2009 4:55 AM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 133 by PaulK, posted 02-20-2009 7:37 AM Peg has responded

    
PaulK
Member
Posts: 12442
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.5


Message 133 of 174 (499753)
02-20-2009 7:37 AM
Reply to: Message 132 by Peg
02-20-2009 5:43 AM


RE: Which One
The Bible is not inerrant and you're not even nearly inerrant - even though you constantly give the impresion that you think that you are.

Now do you intended to support your claims about Josephus ? Or are you taking the attitude all-too-typical of creationists that you must be right unless proven wrong (even though you have no evidence for your assertion whatsoever).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 132 by Peg, posted 02-20-2009 5:43 AM Peg has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 134 by Peg, posted 02-21-2009 2:41 AM PaulK has responded

    
Peg
Member (Idle past 2281 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 134 of 174 (499846)
02-21-2009 2:41 AM
Reply to: Message 133 by PaulK
02-20-2009 7:37 AM


RE: Which One
In Against Apion Book 1 "I SUPPOSE that by my books of the Antiquity of the Jews, most excellent Epaphroditus, have made it evident to those who peruse them, that our Jewish nation is of very great antiquity...
"For we have not an innumerable multitude of books among us, disagreeing from and contradicting one another, [as the Greeks have,] but only twenty-two books, (8) which contain the records of all the past times; which are justly believed to be divine; and of them five belong to Moses, which contain his laws and the traditions of the origin of mankind till his death"

He is talking about the scrolls of the Hebrew scriptures located at the city where he lived, Jerusalem.

"And this is our practice not only in Judea, but wheresoever any body of men of our nation do live; and even there an exact catalogue of our priests' marriages is kept; I mean at Egypt and at Babylon, or in any other place of the rest of the habitable earth, whithersoever our priests are scattered; for they send to Jerusalem the ancient names of their parents in writing"

this shows that the jews kept records and those records were sent to jerusalem and administered by the priests

In book 6 of War of the jews he reports that Titus gave the command to 'burn and to plunder the city' and that the soldiers 'set fire to the repository of the archives ...and to the council house... '

if you want more evidence for the records & sacred writings of the jews being housed at the temple, use that link and read Josephus's writings.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 133 by PaulK, posted 02-20-2009 7:37 AM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 136 by PaulK, posted 02-21-2009 3:46 AM Peg has responded

    
anglagard
Member (Idle past 51 days)
Posts: 2157
From: Big Spring, TX, USA
Joined: 03-18-2006


Message 135 of 174 (499848)
02-21-2009 3:40 AM
Reply to: Message 131 by PaulK
02-20-2009 4:55 AM


Josephus, the Amazing Technicolor Turncoat
PaulK writes:

Josephus was not just a historian.

As we both know, he was also a turncoat and traitor of the first rank.

For the edification of the reader, from wiki:

quote:
Those who have viewed Josephus as a traitor and informer have also questioned his credibility as a historian — dismissing his works as Roman propaganda or as a personal apologetic, aimed at rehabilitating his reputation in history.

Considering his personal history, count me among the ranks of the above. This guy was no Thucydides, more like using Benedict Arnold as an 'unbiased' source on the American Revolution.

Edited by anglagard, : subtitle


Read not to contradict and confute, not to believe and take for granted, not to find talk and discourse, but to weigh and consider - Francis Bacon

The more we understand particular things, the more we understand God - Spinoza


This message is a reply to:
 Message 131 by PaulK, posted 02-20-2009 4:55 AM PaulK has not yet responded

    
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