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Author Topic:   The "Circle of the Earth"
Force
Inactive Member


Message 256 of 307 (433275)
11-10-2007 10:23 PM
Reply to: Message 243 by ringo
11-06-2007 4:38 PM


Re: The circle of the earth
Ringo,
ringo writes:
Metaphors, by definition, are made up
I realize that when you read literature you have to read what it says to understand it. However, when one understands the processes the Bible has been through to reach our time, one also understands that we don't have the original literature. Thus, in anycase, one can't read the Bible and accept what it says as the original and true meaning. However, in my belief, the metaphores remain. Examples: GOD CREATED EVERYTHING. JESUS CAME, AND GOD IS EXALTED.
In reference to Isaiah 40:22 you ask what is the metaphore? "God is being exalted" What am I saying? Don't look to much into what you read when reading the Bible. We have no fact in what Isaiah was really describing and even the typical perception on what the hebrews thought("hebrew cosmology") of the universe is theoretical.
Edited by trossthree, : deletion - addition
Edited by trossthree, : No reason given.

Thank you

This message is a reply to:
 Message 243 by ringo, posted 11-06-2007 4:38 PM ringo has not replied

Force
Inactive Member


Message 257 of 307 (433922)
11-13-2007 4:00 PM
Reply to: Message 252 by Brian
11-08-2007 7:25 AM


Re: The circle of the earth
Brian,
I am sure it could.

Thank you

This message is a reply to:
 Message 252 by Brian, posted 11-08-2007 7:25 AM Brian has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 258 by Brian, posted 11-14-2007 4:43 PM Force has replied

Brian
Member (Idle past 4981 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 258 of 307 (434141)
11-14-2007 4:43 PM
Reply to: Message 257 by Force
11-13-2007 4:00 PM


Re: The circle of the earth
I am sure it could.
And I am equally sure that many won't see how this proves there is something God cannot do!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 257 by Force, posted 11-13-2007 4:00 PM Force has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 259 by Force, posted 11-14-2007 4:56 PM Brian has replied

Force
Inactive Member


Message 259 of 307 (434144)
11-14-2007 4:56 PM
Reply to: Message 258 by Brian
11-14-2007 4:43 PM


Re: The circle of the earth
Brian,
If God created a ROCK it can't lift then it can't lift the rock. Did I miss your point?
Edited by trossthree, : No reason given.
Edited by trossthree, : No reason given.
Edited by trossthree, : No reason given.
Edited by trossthree, : No reason given.

Thank you

This message is a reply to:
 Message 258 by Brian, posted 11-14-2007 4:43 PM Brian has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 260 by Brian, posted 11-14-2007 5:03 PM Force has replied

Brian
Member (Idle past 4981 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 260 of 307 (434146)
11-14-2007 5:03 PM
Reply to: Message 259 by Force
11-14-2007 4:56 PM


Re: The circle of the earth
Well, if God CAN make a rock that is too heavy for Him to lift then He won't be able to lift that rock, hence there is something that God cannot do. If He CAN lift the rock then He cannot create a rock that is too heavy for Him to lift.
The claim that God can do anything is just silly.
Of course we don't have to use this argument because the Bible tells us that God cannot defeat people who have iron chariots.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 259 by Force, posted 11-14-2007 4:56 PM Force has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 261 by Force, posted 11-14-2007 5:07 PM Brian has replied

Force
Inactive Member


Message 261 of 307 (434149)
11-14-2007 5:07 PM
Reply to: Message 260 by Brian
11-14-2007 5:03 PM


Re: The circle of the earth
Brian,
Only if you read the Bible and interprete it literally. Please reference the scripture you're talking about for me. Oh, and my only argument is that if God created a ROCK it could not lift physically. I am sure God could devise a way to LIFT IT. Which means GOD created something that it could not lift and lifted it. Which defeats any of your points on GOD having something it can't do.
Edited by trossthree, : No reason given.

Thank you

This message is a reply to:
 Message 260 by Brian, posted 11-14-2007 5:03 PM Brian has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 262 by Brian, posted 11-14-2007 5:20 PM Force has replied

Brian
Member (Idle past 4981 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 262 of 307 (434151)
11-14-2007 5:20 PM
Reply to: Message 261 by Force
11-14-2007 5:07 PM


Re: The circle of the earth
I am sure God could devise a way to LIFT IT.
If He can devise a way to lift it He has failed to create a rock too heavy for Him to lift!!
Which defeats any of your points on GOD having something it can't do.
Oh to have the mind of a fundy.
If God HAD to devise something to lift the rock then it means that HE cannot lift it, HE has to employ something to do what He cannot. Come on mate, this is a well known paradox, dont fry your brain over it.
Judges 1:19
The LORD was with the men of Judah. They took possession of the hill country, but they were unable to drive the people from the plains, because they had iron chariots.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 261 by Force, posted 11-14-2007 5:07 PM Force has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 263 by Force, posted 11-14-2007 5:31 PM Brian has replied

Force
Inactive Member


Message 263 of 307 (434153)
11-14-2007 5:31 PM
Reply to: Message 262 by Brian
11-14-2007 5:20 PM


Re: The circle of the earth
Brian,
I knew you were going to say that. God would not be lifting the rock. God would be devising a way to lift the rock. For example there are rocks I can't lift. However, I am sure I could devise a way to lift the rock. Such as devising a hyster to lift the rock that I can't lift. Thus I didn't lift the rock the Hyster did. I simply controlled the Hyster to LIFT the rock. The context of your question relies on God doing the lifting. The context of mine relies on a device to lift the rock. Thus God created a ROCK it can't lift. Then God created a way to lift the rock. Meaning there is nothing GOD can't do. To be honest I don't care if God could create a rock it could not lift or not be able to. My understanding of GOD is not bound by such limited understandings.
P.S. I read Judges 1:19 and it seems that the understanding is that the people GOD lead could not drive out the chariots of iron.
Edited by trossthree, : No reason given.
Edited by trossthree, : No reason given.
Edited by trossthree, : No reason given.
Edited by trossthree, : No reason given.

Thank you

This message is a reply to:
 Message 262 by Brian, posted 11-14-2007 5:20 PM Brian has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 264 by Brian, posted 11-14-2007 5:38 PM Force has replied
 Message 265 by Brian, posted 11-14-2007 5:47 PM Force has replied

Brian
Member (Idle past 4981 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 264 of 307 (434157)
11-14-2007 5:38 PM
Reply to: Message 263 by Force
11-14-2007 5:31 PM


Re: The circle of the earth
Then God created a way to lift the rock.
Why did God have to create a way to lift the rock?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 263 by Force, posted 11-14-2007 5:31 PM Force has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 266 by Force, posted 11-14-2007 5:48 PM Brian has replied

Brian
Member (Idle past 4981 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 265 of 307 (434159)
11-14-2007 5:47 PM
Reply to: Message 263 by Force
11-14-2007 5:31 PM


Re: The circle of the earth
P.S. I read Judges 1:19 and it seems that the understanding is that the people GOD lead could not drive out the chariots of iron.
Well, the KJV, the Bible that Jesus used, makes it clear that it is God who could not drive out the chariots.
And the LORD was with Judah; and he drave out the inhabitants of the mountain; but could not drive out the inhabitants of the valley, because they had chariots of iron.
He drove out the inhabitants of the mountain, but couldn't drive out the inhabitants of the valley, thus God is useless.
I think this is an excellent verse that demonstrates that Yahweh was a fictional character invented by Isralite philosophers. it seems obvious that when the Israelites were so overpowered by the iron chariots that they could not imagine anyone defeating them, even God.
God has served His purpose, it is an outdated and worthless concept.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 263 by Force, posted 11-14-2007 5:31 PM Force has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 267 by Force, posted 11-14-2007 5:51 PM Brian has replied

Force
Inactive Member


Message 266 of 307 (434160)
11-14-2007 5:48 PM
Reply to: Message 264 by Brian
11-14-2007 5:38 PM


Re: The circle of the earth
Brian,
Your original question was: Can God make a rock that is too heavy for Him to move?
The context of the question is assuming God is doing the moving.
P.S. God created a ROCK it can't move.
Edited by trossthree, : No reason given.

Thank you

This message is a reply to:
 Message 264 by Brian, posted 11-14-2007 5:38 PM Brian has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 268 by Brian, posted 11-15-2007 3:36 AM Force has not replied

Force
Inactive Member


Message 267 of 307 (434162)
11-14-2007 5:51 PM
Reply to: Message 265 by Brian
11-14-2007 5:47 PM


Re: The circle of the earth
Brian,
The context of judges 1:19 is a sub context of judges 1:8. My only other argument is that the Bible should not be interpreted literally. We don't have the autographs which means we don't have the original writing. Who knows what was removed/added to the contexts of any scriptures.
OOC:
My only advice is to remove the limitations of your thinking. I am a believer in Science. I agree with Big Bang, Abiogenesis, and Evolution. I, although, believe Science will one day understand God and also other forms of life that are outside of Biology.
Edited by trossthree, : limitations....
Edited by trossthree, : err

Thank you

This message is a reply to:
 Message 265 by Brian, posted 11-14-2007 5:47 PM Brian has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 269 by Brian, posted 11-15-2007 7:33 AM Force has replied

Brian
Member (Idle past 4981 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 268 of 307 (434254)
11-15-2007 3:36 AM
Reply to: Message 266 by Force
11-14-2007 5:48 PM


Re: The circle of the earth
The context of the question is assuming God is doing the moving.
P.S. God created a ROCK it can't move.
Thus there is something that God cannot do.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 266 by Force, posted 11-14-2007 5:48 PM Force has not replied

Brian
Member (Idle past 4981 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 269 of 307 (434278)
11-15-2007 7:33 AM
Reply to: Message 267 by Force
11-14-2007 5:51 PM


Re: The circle of the earth
The context of judges 1:19 is a sub context of judges 1:8.
Of course it is, and is also a sub context of the Book of Exodus, The Book of Joshua, and many other books. The context is that when Israel (the nation) went into battle God was either with them or was not. Logically to the Israelites, if they won a battle then God was with them, if they lost then naturally God was not with them, and they would have to find a reason why.
For example, it was clear that God was with Joshua and his armies when they obliterated Jericho and every living thing in the city, including women and innocent little children and babies. As Joshua 6:2 informs us:
And the LORD said unto Joshua, See, I have given into thine hand Jericho, and the king thereof, and the mighty men of valour.
Israelites didn’t take credit for victories for themselves, it was God that was given the credit.
Even more supportive is Joshua 6:16:
And it came to pass at the seventh time, when the priests blew with the trumpets, Joshua said unto the people, Shout; for the
LORD hath
given you the city.
Israel did not win her battles, Yahweh the warrior won the battles, this was the Israelite perception of warfare.
And when they didn’t win a battle then God wasn’t with them, I mean He who can do anything simply cannot be defeated, and we know the consequences when a defeat happens, someone is going to pay.
Unfortunately for the innocent sons and daughters of a certain Achan, the very next battle did not go the Israelites way.
When they had defeated Jericho, an army of Israelites marched on to Ai, where they had their butts soundly kicked. So why did this happen if God was with them? Well He couldn’t have been with them because they lost so something must have displeased God. Lo and behold we have the culprit, wee Achan had stolen some of the treasure that was earmarked for Yahweh:
Joshua 7:1
But the Israelites acted unfaithfully in regard to the devoted things; Achan son of Carmi, the son of Zimri, the son of Zerah, of the tribe of Judah, took some of them. So the LORD's anger burned against Israel.
Thus we have an excuse for Israel failing to take the city of Ai, Achan had angered God. So God, in His usual barbaric style, orders the execution of not only Achan, but his sons and daughters too (as well as everything he had owned).
Joshua 7:23-25
Then Joshua, together with all Israel, took Achan son of Zerah, the silver, the robe, the gold wedge, his sons and daughters, his cattle, donkeys and sheep, his tent and all that he had, to the Valley of Achor. Joshua said, "Why have you brought this trouble on us? The LORD will bring trouble on you today."
Then all Israel stoned him, and after they had stoned the rest, they burned them.
How do we know that this pleased God? Well He then went with the Israelites to Ai and they won the battle.
God even joined in some battles For example, in one battle He killed more Amorites with hail than the Israelites could kill with their swords!
Joshua 10:11
As the Amorites retreated down the road from Beth-horon, the LORD destroyed them with a terrible hailstorm from heaven that continued until they reached Azekah. The hail killed more of the enemy than the Israelites killed with the sword.
Joshua makes it clear that God is the champion, Israel doesn’t win without God’s help.
Joshua 3:10
And Joshua said, Hereby ye shall know that the living God is among you, and that he will without fail drive out from before you the Canaanites, and the Hittites, and the Hivites, and the Perizzites, and the Girgashites, and the Amorites, and the Jebusites.
God was with Judah when he failed to defeat the iron chariots, the text makes this clear. If God was NOT with Judah then we would have an explanation why, as we do in the Book of Judges, things go wrong for Israel.
My only other argument is that the Bible should not be interpreted literally.
None of it?
You mean that Jesus didn’t literally rise from the dead three days after He died?
David did not literally rule over a united monarchy?
God did not literally kill the firstborn of every Egyptian family?
Jesus did not literally bring Lazarus back to life?
Do I take nothing in the Bible literally?
We don't have the autographs which means we don't have the original writing. Who knows what was removed/added to the contexts of any scriptures.
Well this depends on which version of the scriptures you read. Yes we have no original texts, we do not know who wrote any of the Old Testament books, we do not know who wrote the Gospels, but we do have different versions of some of the same books, and we can see many differences.
But the idea that God fought for Israel is not confined to one or two verses, it is a continuous thread throughout the Hebrew Bible, so it is difficult to believe that all of the references are late additions.
My only advice is to remove the limitations of your thinking.
I don’t have any limitations to my thinking, I am extremely open
minded, but not that open minded that my brain has fallen out.
I am a believer in Science. I agree with Big Bang, Abiogenesis, and Evolution.
I notice you didn’t list philosophy, which explains why you cannot see a problem with the rock/lifting paradox.
But, what you believe has no relevance to the accuracy or interpretation of the Hebrew Bible. Big Bang, evolution has nothing to do with ancient near eastern history and the contents of the Bible. You may scrape science into it as a tool of archaeology, but apart from that your beliefs are immaterial.
I, although, believe Science will one day understand God and also other forms of life that are outside of Biology.
Why does science HAVE to understand God? God is outside the realms of scientific enquiry, who actually cares about God? God is a useless concept, utterly devoid of any purpose. It would serve no good purpose to waste vast amounts of human time and resources looking for God, if we found Him what difference would it make?
If science ”proved’ that God existed and that God was Allah as revealed in the Qur’an, then Christians would still not accept that. They would come up with some fantasy that would keep Yahweh alive, just as they have always done. They would say that the scientists have been misled by Satan, and that Satan has fooled the scientists into thinking that Allah was real and all other gods are now untrue.
People who believe in fairytale characters will always find some excuse to keep that character alive.
God only exists in the mind of the believer, other than that God is a completely worthless entity.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 267 by Force, posted 11-14-2007 5:51 PM Force has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 270 by Force, posted 11-15-2007 6:34 PM Brian has replied

Force
Inactive Member


Message 270 of 307 (434407)
11-15-2007 6:34 PM
Reply to: Message 269 by Brian
11-15-2007 7:33 AM


Re: The circle of the earth
Brian,
Eh. Wow. I tripped your trigger. LOL. Oh, and not one single part of the Bible should be interpreted literally. Jesus may very well be a metaphore. Jesus may very well never have existed. However, I choose to believe in Jesus =).
The fact that the biblical manuscripts/translations available fail to have 100% congruence indicates that there is error in biblical scriptures. Who is to say what context of any part of the Bible is the original meaning? I mean, like I said, we simply don't have the autographs of the Bible.
The point I am trying to make is that the IDEA of God creating a ROCK that it can't move is simply retarded. The question relies on GOD doing the physical movement. If God devised a way to move the rock, such as using a hyster to move the rock, then God is not moving the rock. If I said there is nothing I can't do I am GOD. Then you asked me: Can you create a rock that you can't move? Then I created a ROCK I can't move. I knew this because I tried to move it solo. That would show that I am not GOD? That I am limited to what I can do? wrong. Now all I have to do is devise a way to move the rock, and that does not mean I did not create a ROCK that I can't move. Your metaphore is simply for simple minds. Ponder this: Remove the limit of trusting in things that are only possible. Try to believe in things that are impossible. Accept possibility the impossible. You seem to sure to me and it's annoying. Ofcourse, if you want to limit your self to simply believing that Science is absolute or Philosophy is absolute or both then that is your choice. Just remember you're choosing to believe these things and in which case it's what you want to believe. Which is no different then anyone else. Including people like me: FUNDY'S. LOL. Remember KISS. a paradox? LOL.
P.S. Not even Isaiah 40:22 should be interpreted literally. We could not understand it literally even if we wanted to. We don't have the autographs of the Bible. KISS.
Edited by trossthree, : No reason given.
Edited by trossthree, : No reason given.

Thank you

This message is a reply to:
 Message 269 by Brian, posted 11-15-2007 7:33 AM Brian has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 271 by ringo, posted 11-15-2007 6:49 PM Force has replied
 Message 280 by Brian, posted 11-16-2007 2:45 PM Force has replied

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