Citing Middle Eastern Prophecy Being Fulfilled

I'd sy the modern Palestinians are a conglomeration of all the various peoples who have occupied the area for the last 4000 or so years, Egyptians, Hittites, Israelis, Assyrians, Chaldeans, Persians, Macedonians, Romans, Arabs & Turks + probably a number of other peoples.

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There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other WT Young, 2002Who gave anyone the authority to call me an authority on anything. WT Young, 1969

An interesting titbit for consideration;

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The genetic profile of Palestinians has, for the first time, been studied by using human leukocyte antigen (HLA) gene variability and haplotypes. The comparison with other Mediterranean populations by using neighbor-joining dendrograms and correspondence analyses reveal that Palestinians are genetically very close to Jews and other Middle East populations, including Turks (Anatolians), Lebanese, Egyptians, Armenians and Iranians. Archaeologic and genetic data support that both Jews and Palestinians came from the ancient Canaanites, who extensively mixed with Egyptians, Mesopotamian and Anatolian peoples in ancient times. Thus, Palestinian-Jewish rivalry is based in cultural and religious, but not in genetic, differences.

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gn1a-fWlckJ:kinoko.c.u-tokyo.ac.jp/~duraid/stolen_science/The_Origin_of_Palestinians_and_Their_Genetic_Relatedness_With_Other_Mediterranean_Populations.pdf+palestinians+genetics&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=4&gl=uk&client=firefox-a]-->SourceThis is not the first or only study to reach such conclusions. Whoever the modern Palestinians are related to (lots of folks apparently) many Israelis, especially those with strong family ties to Jerusalem, are related to the same people.Mutate and Survive

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"The Bible is like a person, and if you torture it long enough, you can get it to say almost anything you'd like it to say." -- Rev. Dr. Francis H. Wade

The bottom line is that the prophecy is against:1. The latter day nation claiming their own land and Israel and in particular, the Holy places of Israel, i.e. Jerusalem.2. The land of Edom and the Palestinians are obviously the ones who come the closest for fulfillment. The prophecy has partially been fulfilled in that the ancient land of Edom is a wasteland and that there is indeed a bordering people claiming ownership of Israel.3. Of course we have the other corroborating evidence such as the phenomenal return and rebirth of the nation of Israel etc.Anyone who tries to deny fulfillment of prophecy here simply doesn't want to admit the truth.

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BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

I don't think this says a lot. Genetically the roots of Americans end up in nations far removed. The Edomites as well as other nations have roots in Esau and Ishmael who in turn have roots in Cannan etc. We have no samples of Edomite genes, to my knowledge, to perform a similar study. If we did, they would likely also link back to the Canaanites and/or others.

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BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

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The bottom line is that the prophecy is against:

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1. The latter day nation claiming their own land and Israel and in particular, the Holy places of Israel, i.e. Jerusalem.

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Ezekiel 35 doesn't say that it is against a latter day nation. It DOES say that it is against ancient Edom.

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2. The land of Edom and the Palestinians are obviously the ones who come the closest for fulfillment. The prophecy has partially been fulfilled in that the ancient land of Edom is a wasteland and that there is indeed a bordering people claiming ownership of Israel.

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Ancient Edom is clearly meant. If you want to argue for fulfilment you would do better to point out that there are no identifiable Edomites today. That people has vanished from history

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3. Of course we have the other corroborating evidence such as the phenomenal return and rebirth of the nation of Israel etc.

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Anyone who tries to deny fulfillment of prophecy here simply doesn't want to admit the truth.

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The TRUTH is that Ezekiel 35 is about ancient Edom. You have produced no evidence to draw any significant connection with the Palestinians and you have steadfastly ignored all inconvenient evidence - even going so far to assert that Gaza is "far" from the location of ancient Philistia ! You're a long way from the truth, Buz.

Zech12:2 "Behold, I am going to make Jerusalem a cup that causes reeling to all the peoples around; and when the siege is against Jerusalem, it will also be against Judah.
3 "It will come about in that day that I will make Jerusalem a heavy stone for all the peoples; all who lift it will be severely injured. And all the nations of the earth will be gathered against it.Zech 12:10 "I will pour out on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the Spirit of grace and of supplication, so that they will look on Me whom they have pierced; and they will mourn for Him, as one mourns for an only son, and they will weep bitterly over Him like the bitter weeping over a firstborn.Zech 13:9 "And I will bring the third part through the fire, Refine them as silver is refined, And test them as gold is tested. They will call on My name, And I will answer them; I will say, 'They are My people,' And they will say, 'The LORD is my God.' "Zech 14:3 Then the LORD will go forth and fight against those nations, as when He fights on a day of battle.
4 In that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, which is in front of Jerusalem on the east; and the Mount of Olives will be split in its middle from east to west by a very large valley, so that half of the mountain will move toward the north and the other half toward the south.
5 You will flee by the valley of My mountains, for the valley of the mountains will reach to Azel; yes, you will flee just as you fled before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Then the LORD, my God, will come, and all the holy ones with Him!If the Jews now living in the land of Israel are not the ones to whom the above prophesies will soon apply, then what future Jewish generation do you think it will apply?PS - The Jews are there to stay until the Lord returns.Blessings

This whole prophecy beginning with chapter 34 through 39 is a sequence of the events relative to the restoration of the messianic kingdom prophesied by numerous prophets, both OT and NT.1. See 34:23,24. Jehovah declares that the messiah, his servant, David will feed the restored Israel and feed them. It is repeated in 37:24 he says, "And David my servant shall be king over them and they all shall have one shepherd." CLEARLY MESSIANIC2. Then go to 38:8 we read, "...in the latter years you shalt come into the land that is brought back from the sword and is gathered out of many people...."3. 38:11 In the day of unwalled villages. Modern Israel is rife with them. Not so in ancient days.Anyone who can't see this as a prophecy of the end times of the Gentile age is either willfully ignoring the facts or too stubborn to admit the obvious. Edom is a desolation and any remnant descendents of them are the ones nearest to Edom who are claiming in these latter days two nations and Israels holy mountain exactly as prophesied.Israel is blossoming as prophesied and Edom is wasteland as prophesied. That's ,again, the bottom line. Yah sure, no evidence.. You wouldn't admit evidence to anything Biblical to save your soul. I pray the scales will fall off your eyeballs.

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BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

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If the Jews now living in the land of Israel are not the ones to whom the above prophesies will soon apply, then what future Jewish generation do you think it will apply?

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How can it be a prophecy when the event (or in this case, the state of Israel)is entirely man made?It's like Jack Ruby prophesying on the death of Lee Harvey Oswald.Edited by killinghurts, : No reason given.

1. All kingdoms including David's involved the work of man, but God ordained.2. The messianic prophecies indicate that the Jews will return in unbelief but when Jesus/messiah appears they will look upon him whom their for fathers killed and mourn over that fact. They will then have their eyes opened and receive the new birth, i.e. born again, i.e. born from above by God's Holy Spirit. This will all come about when Jesus appears in the clouds and his feet light upon the Mt of Olives to where he had ascended way back after he was resurrected from the dead.Ezekiel 36:26 says "A new heart also will I give you and a new spirit will I put within you; and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh and I will a heart of flesh. 27: And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and you shall keep my judgments and do them. 29: And I will also save you from all your uncleannesses;"It was by the providence of God that Israel became a nation, the messianic nation, after all of those centuries of global dispersion (miraculous/divine). It's all happening as prophesied and it all corroborates with many other prophecies relative to the end of the Gentile era, i.e latter days.

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BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

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All kingdoms including David's involved the work of man, but God ordained.

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I suppose the words "God ordained" is just fancy for "Gold told them to".. right?How do you know this to be true?Saudi Arabians believed they were acting in the name of Allah when they flew two planes into the WTC.. right?George Bush firmly believed he was acting in the name of God when he invaded Iraq.. right?Which in these decisions (if any) were "ordained by God"? Or is it more likely they simply used "the word of God" as a reason to act?I suggest the latter. It happens all the time.

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It was by the providence of God that Israel became a nation, the messianic nation, after all of those centuries of global dispersion (miraculous/divine).

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No, it was not by the providence of God, it was by the providence of the UN. They decided that the Jews should be given their homeland after the collapse of the Ottoman Empire, and it was done so out of their sentimental/emotional (or dare I say religious) attachment to the geographic location. i.e - it was MAN who invoked your interpretation of the prophecy, not God. If God magically teleported all the Jews to the same location, thenI would wholeheartedly believe what you have to say. But that did not happen.

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It's all happening as prophesied and it all corroborates with many other prophecies relative to the end of the Gentile era, i.e latter days.

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And when will that be exactly?You don't know do you.You will *not* give me a date will you. Ever.It's like me saying:"I prophecise that one day the world will end."It's going to come true isn't it...?If you want to prove your point, and predict with accuracy, you must specify a date, and the event must not be able to be acted out by man - don't you agree?

Killinghurts, the topic is about fulfilled prophecy in the Middle East. All I can do is cite the prophecies and note what we observe today relative to those prophecies. Then let each go and figure as to what they want to believe. If you fail to connect the dots, that's your problem.The 9/11 attackers were inspired by the Quran which teaches that Islam must dominate the world by force. The Bible says that Jesus/messiah will rule the world via the nation of Israel which Islam wants to destroy. The Bible also prophesies that an enemy state bordering Israel and other nations will seek to divide the land of Israel and some will claim Israel's holy mountain and the land of Israel.So far the prophecies are right on. Watch and see how coming events continue to vindicate the Biblical record as the truth and the divine.

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BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

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Killinghurts, the topic is about fulfilled prophecy in the Middle East. All I can do is cite the prophecies and note what we observe today relative to those prophecies. Then let each go and figure as to what they want to believe. If you fail to connect the dots, that's your problem.

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No it's not my problem - it's your problem. The onus is on you (the claimant) to prove to me that the bible fulfills prophecy. You clearly cannot do this with a specific date and time, and without intervention by humans.Until you can clearly tell me when an event will happen, you have absolutely no grounds to "connect the dots", as you put it.To me (and most others) a prophecy is a prediction of the future, not an examination of specific events in the past, in hindsight.So I say to you - go ahead, if you're that sure, please put us all out of our misery and predict the future. Give me an event that cannot be attributed to human intervention and give me the date, and I will gladly proclaim you are right and I am wrong.Edited by killinghurts, : Changed the sentence "without a specific date and time" to "with a specific date and time"

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This whole prophecy beginning with chapter 34 through 39 is a sequence of the events relative to the restoration of the messianic kingdom prophesied by numerous prophets, both OT and NT.

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So you assert. Of course if you are right it most likely means another failed prediction.

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1. See 34:23,24. Jehovah declares that the messiah, his servant, David will feed the restored Israel and feed them. It is repeated in 37:24 he says, "And David my servant shall be king over them and they all shall have one shepherd." CLEARLY MESSIANIC

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Ezekiel 34 has no clear connection to Ezekiel 35. Nor does Ezekiel 37.

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2. Then go to 38:8 we read, "...in the latter years you shalt come into the land that is brought back from the sword and is gathered out of many people...."

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And the significance of this is ?

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3. 38:11 In the day of unwalled villages. Modern Israel is rife with them. Not so in ancient days.

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In Ezkiel 38:11 the land that has known peace for a long time and is unprepared for war, and the unwalled villages are a sign of that. As such it is more fitting for times when villages would be walled for defence. Not for modern times where walls are no longer so important for warfare.No military general of modern times would regard unwalled villages as a sign of weakness as "Gog" does in Ezekiel 38.

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Anyone who can't see this as a prophecy of the end times of the Gentile age is either willfully ignoring the facts or too stubborn to admit the obvious.

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By which you mean that anybody who knows better must be slandered

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PaulK writes:

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Ancient Edom is clearly meant. If you want to argue for fulfillment you would do better to point out that there are no identifiable Edomites today. That people has vanished from history

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Edom is a desolation and any remnant descendents of them are the ones nearest to Edom who are claiming in these latter days two nations and Israels holy mountain exactly as prophesied.

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If Edom is a desolation then the prophecy has ALREADY been fulfilled and you are wrong.
You have produced no evidence that the Palestinians can be specifically identified as Edomites specifically. And your "prophecy" is a statement about the past.

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Yah sure, no evidence.. You wouldn't admit evidence to anything Biblical to save your soul. I pray the scales will fall off your eyeballs.

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Like I said you have produced no evidence of significance. Your two main lines of argument that the Palestinians are Edomites both fail. Your geographical argument is simply and obviously wrong. Your "prophetic" argument relies on an invented prophecy (and the assumption that if Buzsaw hasn't heard of something, God couldn't know of it either).And cut out the false accusations. They don't change the facts.

Of course you don't. Why let pesky reality intrude into your apocalyptic fantasy world? That isn't the point. What I am trying to tell you is that if modern Palestinians are descended from the Edomites, then so are the Israelis. The genetic evidence is that they are essentially the same people. Your silly argument that Palestinians are Edomites could just as easily (and just as wrongly) be applied to the Israelis, which kind of screws up the picture you are trying to paint.Your scenario simply makes no sense if both the Palestinians and Israelis are Edomites.Mutate and Survive

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"The Bible is like a person, and if you torture it long enough, you can get it to say almost anything you'd like it to say." -- Rev. Dr. Francis H. Wade

The Question:Can the Palestinians be identified specifically as Edomites to the extent that we can say that a prophecy directed against the Edomites is actually directed at the Palestinians ?The Problem:The last reference to the Edomites as a people - then called Idumaeans - has them sending a substantial force to support the Jews, in the Jewish Revolt of the 1st Century AD. After that, they vanish from history. We may infer that the defeat of the Revolt and the inevitable Roman reprisals at least partly explain their disappearance.Also, it must be noted that the reason the Idumaeans supported the Jews is that they had been converted to Judaism some time earlier. It is entirely possible, even likely, that the surviving Idumaeans were absorbed into the Jewish community (which, itself, suffered in consequence of the failed revolt).The supposed evidence:Geography:Edom is supposedly the "closest" kingdom to the current Palestinian territories. Even if this were true it would be insufficient to overcome the problems noted above. But it is not true. The wikipedia page on Palestine contains maps showing both the modern Palestinian territories and the ancient kingdosm of the region.This shows that:1) The Gaza strip is a portion of Philistia, the only part of Palestinian territory outside of ancient Israel or Judah.2) On a closest-point to closest-point basis Aram-Damascus appears to come closest to the West Bank, in the north. Ammon and Moab both appear to come closer than Edom, although Moab is seperated by the Dead Sea.Prophecy:35:10 is claimed to be a prediction that somehow refers to the Palestinians. However, if the Palestinians cannot be identified as Edomites it does not matter even if this minor detail fits - it is hardly something that uniquely identifies a people. Even worse there is no reason to suppose that it is any sort of prediction. It is given as something that HAD BEEN DONE to justify the predicted punishment. I have checked a good number of translations and not one translates Ezekiel 35:10 as referring to a future claim, rather than one which was past or current at the time of writing.We are left then with good historical reasons to deny the claim that the Palestinians are specifically Edomite, and nothing of significance to suggest that they are.Edited by PaulK, : No reason given.