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Author
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Topic: The Existence of Jesus Christ
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Theodoric
Member Posts: 9197 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: 08-15-2005 Member Rating: 3.2
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Roman death records of Jesus
Message 5 Catholic Scientist I know this is an old post, but in it you say
I've also heard, though I couldn't find, that there are Roman death records of the crucifixtion of Jesus. Did you ever find a source for this? If you did I am sure that they are not actual records, because if they were it would be the historical and religious news of the millennium. Just curious as to what the real data is that they are using to claim such a thing.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 5 by New Cat's Eye, posted 05-27-2005 6:33 PM | | New Cat's Eye has not replied |
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Theodoric
Member Posts: 9197 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: 08-15-2005 Member Rating: 3.2
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Message 294 of 378 (569300)
07-21-2010 10:39 AM
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Bump for GDR
GDR writes: I am as well except that there are only so many hours in the day and it can suck up a lot of time. In addition every time I get in these discussions it turns into a debate over the nuances of one word or another, which I find frustrating and time wasting. I love discussing these things, but I'm less keen on a debate just for the sake of the debate. Though it seems you may be unwilling to present you claims of evidence for Jesus Christ, here is a thread already up and running. No need to start a new thread. Come on show us what you and Mr Wright have.
Facts don\'t lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 295 by GDR, posted 07-21-2010 11:26 AM | | Theodoric has replied |
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Theodoric
Member Posts: 9197 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: 08-15-2005 Member Rating: 3.2
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Message 299 of 378 (569327)
07-21-2010 12:05 PM
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Reply to: Message 295 by GDR
07-21-2010 11:26 AM
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Re: Bump for GDR
Paul's early writings, including Romans, were written within 20 to 25 years of the resurrection. Did Paul ever meet this person? No. That Paul thought Jesus was real is not evidence. There is also a school of thought that Paul never thought of Jesus as a living person of this earthy plain. Earl Doherty makes a very convincing case for this in
Jesus: Neither God Nor Man
The Case for a Mythical Jesus As I said there would be many around at that time who would have been able to point out that Paul was off base.
A number of issues wrong with this. First of all there is no evidence for this. Paul does not talk about the events mentioned in the gospels. Why would they point out something that isn't even presented. How do you know no one did? Finally, Paul was not preaching and writing in Jerusalem. There were no newspaper, no internet. Why would people in Jerusalem even know or care if someone was making up stories about a nobody from a quarter century earlier? As I suspected. No evidence just assertions. Josephus, Josephus. There is lots of contextual evidence that this is an interpolation or a forgery. Even if it is an actual writing of Josephus, it is not evidence. It is a passing reference of what other people believe about some guy in the past. It is not contemporary. If you are so inclined to understand why using Josephus is a bad move. Try reading this.
JOSEPHUS UNBOUND
Reopening the Josephus Question So what we learn is even though you claim there is lots of evidence, there is in fact no evidence. There is absolutely no contemporary, extra-biblical evidence for the existence of Jesus Christ. Would you agree with that?
Facts don\'t lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 295 by GDR, posted 07-21-2010 11:26 AM | | GDR has not replied |
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Theodoric
Member Posts: 9197 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: 08-15-2005 Member Rating: 3.2
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Message 300 of 378 (569328)
07-21-2010 12:06 PM
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Reply to: Message 298 by GDR
07-21-2010 12:00 PM
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Re: Bump for GDR
Paul may or may not have met Jesus but he certainly had considerable contact with those that had. Again I ask. Where is your evidence? Show us this evidence.
Facts don\'t lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 298 by GDR, posted 07-21-2010 12:00 PM | | GDR has not replied |
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Theodoric
Member Posts: 9197 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: 08-15-2005 Member Rating: 3.2
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Message 303 of 378 (569365)
07-21-2010 3:32 PM
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Reply to: Message 302 by GDR
07-21-2010 3:22 PM
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Re: wiki
From the wiki you mention. \ quote:
The lines of evidence used to establish Jesus' historical existence include the New Testament documents, theoretical source documents that may lie behind the New Testament, statements from the early Church Fathers, brief references in histories produced decades or centuries later by pagan and Jewish sources, gnostic documents, and early Christian creeds.
Notice that there is nothing contemporary.. The New testament can't be used as evidence to prove itself. Everything else is decades or centuries later. Again I ask. Where is all of this evidence you mentioned in the other thread? Are you willing to admit you have none? You are not providing any as of yet.
Facts don\'t lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 302 by GDR, posted 07-21-2010 3:22 PM | | GDR has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 305 by GDR, posted 07-21-2010 4:31 PM | | Theodoric has replied |
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Theodoric
Member Posts: 9197 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: 08-15-2005 Member Rating: 3.2
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Message 307 of 378 (569384)
07-21-2010 4:40 PM
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Reply to: Message 305 by GDR
07-21-2010 4:31 PM
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Re: wiki
I don't know of anything that was written except what was written after the fact.
Decades and centuries after the fact. I will take this as your admission that you spoke incorrectly when you stated the following
GDR writes: I believe that the historical evidence for the bodily resurrection of Jesus is much stronger than for the argument against it... I also contend that there is at least as much empirical evidence about Jesus, (if you call historical literature as empirical evidence), as there is for any other historical figure.
Message 102 It seems you have no evidence at all.
Facts don\'t lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 305 by GDR, posted 07-21-2010 4:31 PM | | GDR has not replied |
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Theodoric
Member Posts: 9197 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: 08-15-2005 Member Rating: 3.2
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Message 309 of 378 (569386)
07-21-2010 4:43 PM
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Reply to: Message 306 by GDR
07-21-2010 4:33 PM
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Evidence
Where is the evidence for that? That Christianity was a minor cult for generations should be evidence enough.
Facts don\'t lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 306 by GDR, posted 07-21-2010 4:33 PM | | GDR has not replied |
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Theodoric
Member Posts: 9197 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: 08-15-2005 Member Rating: 3.2
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Message 311 of 378 (569388)
07-21-2010 4:56 PM
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Reply to: Message 310 by GDR
07-21-2010 4:49 PM
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You need to explain what the problem is
If you have a problem with the evidence presented you need to clearly articulate what that problem is. I and I am sure others are unable to read your mind and know what your objections are. So quit being cryptic and tell us what is wrong with the evidence presented. If the majority of people in the years after 36 C.E. believed Paul, then there would have been a groundswell of christianity at this time. This is not seen. There is no historical record of this happening. Also, there would have been some sort of mention in chronicles of the time. If the majority of people believed Paul there would have been huge social and political ramifications. We see none. That is the evidence. Care to refute it? Evidence is presented. The ball is in your court. Edited by Theodoric, : spelling
Facts don\'t lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 310 by GDR, posted 07-21-2010 4:49 PM | | GDR has not replied |
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Theodoric
Member Posts: 9197 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: 08-15-2005 Member Rating: 3.2
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Message 317 of 378 (569409)
07-21-2010 7:02 PM
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Reply to: Message 316 by GDR
07-21-2010 7:00 PM
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As was stated on the other thread. There is no evidence in that link.
Facts don\'t lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 316 by GDR, posted 07-21-2010 7:00 PM | | GDR has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 318 by hERICtic, posted 07-21-2010 7:18 PM | | Theodoric has not replied | | | Message 319 by GDR, posted 07-21-2010 7:18 PM | | Theodoric has replied |
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Theodoric
Member Posts: 9197 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: 08-15-2005 Member Rating: 3.2
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Message 320 of 378 (569416)
07-21-2010 7:23 PM
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Reply to: Message 319 by GDR
07-21-2010 7:18 PM
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[qc]there is no evidence that is irrefutable.[/qs] Drop the last 3 words and you are correct. There is NO evidence. If there were you would present some. You are the one that claimed huge amounts of evidence. So far you have presented nothing.
Facts don\'t lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 319 by GDR, posted 07-21-2010 7:18 PM | | GDR has not replied |
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Theodoric
Member Posts: 9197 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: 08-15-2005 Member Rating: 3.2
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Message 331 of 378 (571862)
08-02-2010 7:35 PM
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Reply to: Message 329 by Kapyong
07-23-2010 10:54 PM
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Welcome back
I have you previous post to this bookmarked for reference when I need this info. A great summation of the subject. I use it quite often. Thanks
Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 329 by Kapyong, posted 07-23-2010 10:54 PM | | Kapyong has not replied |
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Theodoric
Member Posts: 9197 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: 08-15-2005 Member Rating: 3.2
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I am confused.
How is this evidence for the existence of Jesus Christ?
Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
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Theodoric
Member Posts: 9197 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: 08-15-2005 Member Rating: 3.2
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ok I am not confused. You are.
So what you have is something less than mumbo-jumbo. How about trying to focus on the topic.
Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 336 by John 10:10, posted 08-03-2010 3:05 PM | | John 10:10 has not replied |
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Theodoric
Member Posts: 9197 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: 08-15-2005 Member Rating: 3.2
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Still confused
What does this have to do with the non-existence of Jesus Christ? Are you confirming that you have no evidence, other than a book of questionable provenance, with multiple errors and out right lies and forgeries?
Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 341 by John 10:10, posted 08-10-2010 10:39 AM | | John 10:10 has not replied |
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Theodoric
Member Posts: 9197 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: 08-15-2005 Member Rating: 3.2
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I think not
Otherwise, we can do so here. No, because that would just continue your multitude of off topic posts.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 349 by John 10:10, posted 08-14-2010 3:41 PM | | John 10:10 has not replied |
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