The Existence of Jesus Christ

Rawel Singh writes,Firstly is this statement by Jesus "Somebody hath touched me: for I perceive that virtue is gone out of me" (Luke 8:46).Jesus declared He could only do the things He saw His heavenly Father doing (John 5:19). When this woman reached out in faith and touched Jesus believing that she would be healed, God the Father worked through Jesus and healed her without Jesus' direct action.Secondly when some people mocked at him, after his crucifixion he lamented "My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken me" Matthew 27:46 & Mark 15:34). If the gospel is the word of God, Jesus had been forsaken by God. Is this true?These words were spoken by Jesus as He hung on the cross. In order for Jesus to take away the sin of the world (John 1:29), the sin of the world had to laid upon Him. When the sin of the world was laid upon Him, God the father forsook Jesus, thus the cry of Jesus, "My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken Me?" This was the only time in all of eternity that Jesus was separated from God the Father.BlessingsThis message has been edited by John 10:10, 03-15-2006 01:43 PM

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The evil one comes to steal, kill and destroy; but I Jesus have come that you might have eternal Life and have eternal Life more abundantly - John 10:10

Jesus was exalted to the right hand of God the Father and given Lord position in the Godhead only after He completed His mission on the cross (Acts 2:32-36).To suggest some of the things you are suggesting is to misunderstand the words of Jesus.The words Jesus spoke "are spirit and are life" (John 6:63).Many disciples of Jesus no longer walked with Jesus after He said these words.Many today cannot walk with Jesus as Lord.Blessings

First of all, it's not me but the Scriptures that declare:"Therefore let all the house of Israel know for certain that God has made Him both Lord and Christ--this Jesus whom you crucified." (Acts 2:36).Since Jesus was already Christ before this event, the position of Lord was not His but was God the Father's position. God the Father then gave this honor position to Jesus as a result of completing His atoning mission to earth.True salvation is in acknowledging Jesus as Lord, and in confessing Him as Lord of your life.After Jesus spoke the words of John 6 to a great number of His disciples, many could no longer accept what commitment to these words meant, and no longer walked with Him.Many today will accept Jesus as a great man, but will not accept Jesus as Lord God.Blessings

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The evil one comes to steal, kill and destroy; but I Jesus have come that you might have eternal Life and have eternal Life more abundantly - John 10:10

Rawel Singh writes,"The real issues have still not been addressed."Since you have stated your position regarding the truthfulness of Bible Scriptures, the only thing I will address are these words of Jesus in John 5:39-40,"You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me; and you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have eternal life."I do not believe most people who come to this web site believe there is such a thing as "eternal life." Most certainly do not believe nor have they received the eternal life that Jesus gives to those who come to Him.Blessings

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The evil one comes to steal, kill and destroy; but I Jesus have come that you might have eternal Life and have eternal Life more abundantly - John 10:10

This message has been edited by John 10:10, 03-17-2006 02:16 PM

The questions you are asking must be addressed in a different topic thread, as well as the question "What does it mean to walk with Jesus as Lord." When I try to answer these questions here, I am told this is off topic. The answers given by others do not come close to explaining Biblically what is meant.Blessings

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The evil one comes to steal, kill and destroy; but I Jesus have come that you might have eternal Life and have eternal Life more abundantly - John 10:10

The writer, Paul, who did mention the Lord Jesus Christ declared this in Acts 2:32 "This Jesus God raised up again, to which we are all witnesses.
33 "Therefore having been exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He has poured forth this which you both see and hear.
34 "For it was not David who ascended into heaven, but he himself says : 'THE LORD SAID TO MY LORD, "SIT AT MY RIGHT HAND,
35 UNTIL I MAKE YOUR ENEMIES A FOOTSTOOL FOR YOUR FEET."'
36 "Therefore let all the house of Israel know for certain that God has made Him both Lord and Christ -this Jesus whom you crucified."
37 Now when they heard this, they were pierced to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, "Brethren , what shall we do ?"
38 Peter said to them, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins ; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
39 "For the promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off, as many as the Lord our God will call to Himself."I doubt if any of the writers you have mentioned asked the right question written in verse 37 and then followed through with the right answer given by Peter in verses 38-39.For this reason, they and you ignore the truth of who the Lord Jesus is, and the promise He gives to those who repent of their sins and honor Jesus as Lord.

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How is this evidence for the existence of Jesus Christ?

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I think most unbelievers at this forum are somewhat familiar with the causality principle. Causality is the relationship between an event (the cause) and a second event (the effect), where the second event is a consequence of the first.When applied to sinners who repent according to Acts 2:38-39, they/we receive the gift of God's Holy Spirit.The proof is in the pudding for those who repent.Blessings

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How is any of that relevant or evidence of Jesus?

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Since the Lord Jesus gives the gift of the Holy Spirit to sinners who repent of their sins and are baptized in His name for the forgiveness of their sins, how would you know if this occurs? Are you like one of those Paul met in Acts 19:2? If so, Paul said,"John baptized with the baptism of repentance, telling the people to believe in Him who was coming after him, that is, in Jesus." When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they began speaking with tongues and prophesying. (verses 4-6)

Most unbelievers at this forum believe in the causality principle when it comes to scientific principles, but reject it when it comes to spiritual principles.

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WHY?

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Because Biblical spiritual principles are for those who believe and receive the truth of WHO JESUS IS.

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The evidence of WHO JESUS IS is given to those who believe, not to skeptics and unbelievers.

There is nothing magic about the brains of the unrepentant, they are just blind, as Paul declares in 2 Cor 4,3 And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing,
4 in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.This gospel is available to all God is calling to Himself, to the "whosoever wills" of this world, not the "whosoeverwont's" of this world.

If you are genuinely interested, I will give you my views.Let's start with "Suddenly, everything that had once been revealed to me is now veiled."Revealed is a very powerful truth word. What exactly was revealed to you that is now veiled?If you would rather carry on in private messaging, do so. Otherwise, we can do so here.Blessings

Yes, I too believe in most of the things you mention above, but one more thing is needed.What happened at some point in your life when everything you assumed you believed in no longer made sense, you began to lose your beliefs, and you deconverted?

Apothecus,Thanks for being open and honest with me, unlike some others at this forum who put down the messenger instead of having a real message dialogue. Yes, it's my turn.I have gone through all the things you once believed were true, and much much more. I grew in up a Christian home, attending a large Baptist church until I graduated from high school. At the age of 9, I made a profession of Jesus as my Savoir and was water baptized. In college I drifted far from my Christian roots, spending 5 years partying as a frat boy, but still graduated with a degree in Engineering Physics, and then went on to 45 year career in the nuclear energy business. I married the love of my life at 23, and made the commitment to get back to my Christian roots. From then until I was 29 I grew in knowledge of the Bible, but I cannot say Jesus as a person was very real to me. We moved to CA when I was 26, and joined a Baptist church. For 3 years I did everything I could "do" in the church; choir, taught SS class, visitation, revivals, etc. But nothing "I" did brought me into the intimate relationship with the Jesus of the Bible other Christians seemed to have. In fact, the more I tried to make Christianity real to me, the further away God seemed to be. Then I went through a month of what some call "the dark night of the soul" where God completely withdrew Himself from me. In despair I went to the pastor, explained my desperation to him, asked for prayer, but in truth he could offer me no relief for my soul in desperate need of a real God. But I did not give up and leave the church. Then one evening a short time later as I went out on visitation with another guy in the church to visit those who had recently visited the church, God did something totally unexpected or asked for. For 2 hours I/we witnessed to our faith in Jesus to the father of the two boys who had visited our church. He was somewhat familiar with Catholicism, but not familiar evangelical Christianity. When we got to the home, I was still the same person in desperate need of a real God of today, not just a historical God of the Bible. But the more we told the father about the God of the Bible, something began to happen inside of me. By the time we left 2 hours later, we felt like we were floating through the air on the way back to the church. When we got back to to the church, we were jumping up and down and praising God for who He is, not for who He was. We realized that God had just filled/baptized us with the gift of the Holy Spirit to be His witnesses as He said he would in Acts 1:5. Since that night 39 years ago, I have been on a life long quest to really know this God of the Bible who became real to me for the first time.My favorite Bible verse during this 39 year quest to know God is Phil 3:10,"That I may know Him and the power of His resurrection and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death."This is my testimony in a nutshell.BlessingsEdited by John 10:10, : No reason given.Edited by John 10:10, : No reason given.

Hi again Apothecus,Quite the quantrary, during my "dark night of the soul" experience, I doubted everything I thought I knew about this God of the Bible, especially whether I ever really knew Him personally and the salvation He supposedly gives. Since then I've read many stories about men and women who have gone before that have had similar experiences as mine. Their testimonies and mine as well say that God does this not to make our spiritual journey difficult, but to try our faith to see if we're willing to walk on "naked faith" until "faith as a substance" comes.The key for me and for many like me is that faith is not only the substance of what we believe is true (Heb 11:1), faith is a Person where God gives to us the gift of His Spirit so that the Spirit takes the words of Jesus as recorded in the Bible and discloses them to us (John 14:17, 16:13-15). So yes, as you say to some degree

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"spiritual (magic) understanding" follows accepting Christ as one's savior (an understanding that, according to them, is "unattainable" by the unrepentant).

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Did you lose something in your deconversion? Quite possibly you did for Gen 6:3 says this, "My Spirit will not strive with man forever." If there is absolutely no desire on your part to know this God of the Bible and to re-enter into a relationship with Him, then after 35 years of believing in the God of the Bible, you have lost something. Can whatever you lost be re-gained? Yes, you can, but just re-gaining what you lost would be of no help to you. It didn't help you then from turning your back on this God of the Bible, and it won't help you now.When you read my testimony, the thing that made the real difference in my life is what God did for me, giving me the "fulness of His Spirit." During my first 29 years, I certainly had a measure of real faith and a measure of God's Spirit. But during the last 39 years, I have moved into such a "knowing faith" that I could no more doubt the reality of God than I could doubt my 45 year marriage relationship with my wife.Heb 11:6 says this, "And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him."Why are some rewarded for seeking Him, and some do not seem to be rewarded for seeking Him? If I could answer this question, we could shut down all the Bible Forums and many churches, and everyone could come and listen to me.But this one truth I do know,"The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance." 2 Peter 3:9and to faith in Him.BlessingsEdited by John 10:10, : changed word