Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
4 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,806 Year: 3,063/9,624 Month: 908/1,588 Week: 91/223 Day: 2/17 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   The Existence of Jesus Christ
Apothecus
Member (Idle past 2410 days)
Posts: 275
From: CA USA
Joined: 01-05-2010


Message 343 of 378 (573245)
08-10-2010 2:08 PM
Reply to: Message 342 by jar
08-10-2010 10:45 AM


Re: I am confused.
What Mr. 10:10 is trying to get across to us is that the brains of the unrepentant exhibit some sort of Magick Transformation at the moment we accept the Lord into our hearts (brains). Prior to the metaphysical "switch" flipping, the lack of Holy Spirit would have prohibited us from enjoying a higher plane of spiritual understanding, in which certain questionable, unreasonable, irrational, or just plain confusing subjects suddenly become crystal clear. Or so the mountebanks say.
Unfortunately, this upgrade is only available to certain Christians and the delusional.
Have a good one.

"My own suspicion is that the Universe is not only queerer than we suppose, but queerer than we can suppose. J.B.S Haldane 1892-1964

This message is a reply to:
 Message 342 by jar, posted 08-10-2010 10:45 AM jar has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 345 by John 10:10, posted 08-12-2010 3:12 PM Apothecus has replied

Apothecus
Member (Idle past 2410 days)
Posts: 275
From: CA USA
Joined: 01-05-2010


Message 348 of 378 (573884)
08-12-2010 11:21 PM
Reply to: Message 345 by John 10:10
08-12-2010 3:12 PM


Re: Magic Transformation of the Unrepentant
There is nothing magic about the brains of the unrepentant, they are just blind...
So, John, what exactly happens to the heart (brain) of a believer of 35 years who ceases to believe? (And no offense, but please, in advance, spare me your pity for "losing my faith". Honestly, it was both the hardest and best thing that ever happened to me.)
Is it a "reverse transformation"? Suddenly, everything that had once been revealed to me is now veiled? Or had I not, nor had I ever been as True a Scotsman as one such as you?
It didn't feel like anything special happened to me during the time I stopped believing. I certainly don't believe I have less knowledge than I did when I was a true believer. Quite the opposite, in fact. Obviously I must have unconsciously "lost" something during my deconversion which either I never knew I had, or, upon losing "it", underwent some sort of selective amnesia for anything pertaining to revelation.
Beats me. How would I know, right?
Anyway, I'd be interested in your views of my situation...
Have a good one.

"My own suspicion is that the Universe is not only queerer than we suppose, but queerer than we can suppose. J.B.S Haldane 1892-1964

This message is a reply to:
 Message 345 by John 10:10, posted 08-12-2010 3:12 PM John 10:10 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 349 by John 10:10, posted 08-14-2010 3:41 PM Apothecus has replied

Apothecus
Member (Idle past 2410 days)
Posts: 275
From: CA USA
Joined: 01-05-2010


Message 352 of 378 (574231)
08-14-2010 10:04 PM
Reply to: Message 349 by John 10:10
08-14-2010 3:41 PM


Re: Transformation of the repentant
Hey J10:10,
If you are genuinely interested, I will give you my views.
No, I'm genuinely interested and I'd rather do it here than PM. I'm curious, since I've never gotten a direct, succinct answer.
Revealed is a very powerful truth word.
I can remember all kinds of stuff from when I was a believer. Heck, I can remember loads of worship, vacation bible school, youth fellowship, bible study, missions, church choir...I ate it all up. I assume since the Holy Spirit was with me and, in my heart (brain), I accepted Jesus as my personal Savior, I believed in Creation, the GOE, the Fludde, Exodus, the whale, death/resurrection, etc... that this was "revelation". Am I incorrect? Because I sure thought I knew it all back then.
What exactly was revealed to you that is now veiled?
Hey John, how the hell should I know? Apparently since only those endowed with the Holy Spirit can ascertain the meaning associated with a strictly literal interpretation of a God-inspired bible, shouldn't I have lost all of it when I deconverted?
You tell me...these are your beliefs.

"My own suspicion is that the Universe is not only queerer than we suppose, but queerer than we can suppose. J.B.S Haldane 1892-1964

This message is a reply to:
 Message 349 by John 10:10, posted 08-14-2010 3:41 PM John 10:10 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 353 by John 10:10, posted 08-15-2010 9:33 PM Apothecus has replied

Apothecus
Member (Idle past 2410 days)
Posts: 275
From: CA USA
Joined: 01-05-2010


(1)
Message 354 of 378 (574499)
08-16-2010 8:59 AM
Reply to: Message 353 by John 10:10
08-15-2010 9:33 PM


Re: Transformation of the repentant
Thanks for the reply, J10:10.
...but one more thing is needed.
What happened at some point in your life when everything you assumed you believed in no longer made sense, you began to lose your beliefs, and you deconverted?
*lies back*
Well, doctor, I don't think there was any one defining moment which marked my refusal to take on faith the many things I found silly, unreasonable, or downright false. Gradually, after plently of soul searching (and actual searching), I just looked at the absence of major differences between any other historical religion (Greek, Roman, Mayan, etc...) and Christianity and concluded, rationally, that I couldn't be honest with myself and still believe it any longer.
In short, the cognitive dissonance was deafening. Simple as that.
Your turn. In your mind, at this point in time, your eyes (as a devout believer) are as wide open and receptive to the truth of Christianity as they'll ever be. Mine were once like yours. Am I now like an old broken AM radio which, while it worked fine to tune into Savage Nation at one point, no longer functions at that particular station on the dial?
Like I said, I don't feel any different, and it certainly seems like I have all the same knowledge and memories from that point in my life. But I must have changed in some way, yes? If not, then believers' circular claims (that the only way for an individual to ever truly understand Christianity and all that it entails is to fully and completely accept Jesus as his savior) fall flat.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 353 by John 10:10, posted 08-15-2010 9:33 PM John 10:10 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 355 by John 10:10, posted 08-16-2010 11:28 AM Apothecus has replied

Apothecus
Member (Idle past 2410 days)
Posts: 275
From: CA USA
Joined: 01-05-2010


(1)
Message 356 of 378 (574951)
08-18-2010 3:00 PM
Reply to: Message 355 by John 10:10
08-16-2010 11:28 AM


Re: Transformation of the repentant
Hello John10:10,
Thanks for your detailed and thoughtful description of your journey ... seems like an interesting one.
But I'm not sure if your testimony was intended to be presented as a parallel to my own in order to highlight ... something? If so, then I can't but feel like you're missing the point.
Then I went through a month of what some call "the dark night of the soul" where God completely withdrew Himself from me.
It should be clear by this statement that our situations are strikingly different. You were greatly dismayed at what you perceived to be God's withdrawal from your life, and desperately sought to find him again, yes? My own experience was more of an "awakening" to a world where nothing is preordained, biblical free will is nonexistant, and while many portions of the bible may very well be factual historically speaking, most (IMO) are relegated to the myth bin. It was refreshing to come to the understanding that I was free to choose my own moral path and not be guided or constrained by the overlooming threat of damnation and judgement. I'll admit that there was a momentary pang of regret that, according to my belief, I wouldn't spend eternity (!) with those whom I loved in life after I died. But just for one short moment...(can you imagine spending eternity with anyone???) And I can tell you that after experiencing that epiphany, I've never looked back.
Testimonials aside, my question (as ever) remains unanswered. I'm sure even though you thought God left you at one point, you did not leave him, and your unwavering faith in him meant that no "mark" was left when you finally found him again. In other words, you didn't "lose" any type of spiritual "insight" into your faith in that interim which you subsequently reacquired, correct?
So my question, again, is since many fundamentalists I've spoken with claim a degree of "spiritual (magic) understanding" follows accepting Christ as one's savior (an understanding that, according to them, is "unattainable" by the unrepentant), I assume the reverse is true as well. Did I lose something in my deconversion?
Because it sure seems quite the opposite...
Have a good one.

"My own suspicion is that the Universe is not only queerer than we suppose, but queerer than we can suppose. J.B.S Haldane 1892-1964

This message is a reply to:
 Message 355 by John 10:10, posted 08-16-2010 11:28 AM John 10:10 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 357 by John 10:10, posted 08-18-2010 10:57 PM Apothecus has replied

Apothecus
Member (Idle past 2410 days)
Posts: 275
From: CA USA
Joined: 01-05-2010


Message 358 of 378 (576649)
08-24-2010 10:23 PM
Reply to: Message 357 by John 10:10
08-18-2010 10:57 PM


Re: Transformation of the repentant
Thanks J10:10,
Quite the quantrary, during my "dark night of the soul" experience, I doubted everything I thought I knew about this God of the Bible, especially whether I ever really knew Him personally and the salvation He supposedly gives.
I think you're being dodgy. Doubting is different from what could be called "supernatural amnesia".
1. Do you believe one who has never "known" God or accepted Jesus as his savior has not the ability to understand His plan for salvation, etc, etc...?
2. Has one lost this understanding one once had as a believer, if one no longer believes?
Did you lose something in your deconversion? Quite possibly you did for Gen 6:3 says this, "My Spirit will not strive with man forever." If there is absolutely no desire on your part to know this God of the Bible and to re-enter into a relationship with Him, then after 35 years of believing in the God of the Bible, you have lost something.
Ah. So as ever, I won't get a satisfactory response. It seems to me to be a bit contradictory for the extremely devout (I'm not accusing you of this) I've come across to claim that those who haven't accepted Jesus as personal savior can't hope to understand, comprehend, or accept anything ranging from alleged biblical archeological "evidence" to examples of God's "Moral Code" in society. According to these folks, until you do so, a veil will ever obscure your view of the "real world."
I'm sorry, but I'm throwing the BS flag.
Thanks for the effort, J10:10, but your argument was unconvincing. Honestly, the key veil in this case was the one which was lifted at the time of my deconversion.
But thank you, all the same.
Have a good one.

"My own suspicion is that the Universe is not only queerer than we suppose, but queerer than we can suppose. J.B.S Haldane 1892-1964

This message is a reply to:
 Message 357 by John 10:10, posted 08-18-2010 10:57 PM John 10:10 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 359 by John 10:10, posted 08-26-2010 9:46 AM Apothecus has seen this message but not replied

Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024