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Author Topic:   The Existence of Jesus Christ
ramoss
Member (Idle past 612 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 301 of 378 (569346)
07-21-2010 1:37 PM
Reply to: Message 298 by GDR
07-21-2010 12:00 PM


Re: Bump for GDR
Did he? Do you have any evidence of this beyond his claims? Paul also admitted that he stretched the truth, and made some claims about being a student of Rabbi Gamiel, which is odd , since all his theology is in direct conflict with what Gameil would have taught.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 298 by GDR, posted 07-21-2010 12:00 PM GDR has not replied

GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 302 of 378 (569364)
07-21-2010 3:22 PM


wiki
This wiki article goes well beyond anything that I would have knowledge of, so if any of you are genuinely interested here it is. It is very interesting by the way.
Historicity of Jesus

Replies to this message:
 Message 303 by Theodoric, posted 07-21-2010 3:32 PM GDR has replied

Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 303 of 378 (569365)
07-21-2010 3:32 PM
Reply to: Message 302 by GDR
07-21-2010 3:22 PM


Re: wiki
From the wiki you mention.
\
quote:
The lines of evidence used to establish Jesus' historical existence include the New Testament documents, theoretical source documents that may lie behind the New Testament, statements from the early Church Fathers, brief references in histories produced decades or centuries later by pagan and Jewish sources, gnostic documents, and early Christian creeds.
Notice that there is nothing contemporary.. The New testament can't be used as evidence to prove itself. Everything else is decades or centuries later.
Again I ask. Where is all of this evidence you mentioned in the other thread? Are you willing to admit you have none? You are not providing any as of yet.

Facts don\'t lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

This message is a reply to:
 Message 302 by GDR, posted 07-21-2010 3:22 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 305 by GDR, posted 07-21-2010 4:31 PM Theodoric has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 304 of 378 (569372)
07-21-2010 3:42 PM
Reply to: Message 298 by GDR
07-21-2010 12:00 PM


Re: Bump for GDR
The vast majority of folk did not believe Paul.
It really is that simple.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 298 by GDR, posted 07-21-2010 12:00 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 306 by GDR, posted 07-21-2010 4:33 PM jar has replied

GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 305 of 378 (569381)
07-21-2010 4:31 PM
Reply to: Message 303 by Theodoric
07-21-2010 3:32 PM


Re: wiki
Theodoric writes:
Notice that there is nothing contemporary.. The New testament can't be used as evidence to prove itself. Everything else is decades or centuries later.
To the best of my knowledge newspapers weren't around back then. I don't know of anything that was wriotten except what was written after the fact.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 303 by Theodoric, posted 07-21-2010 3:32 PM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 307 by Theodoric, posted 07-21-2010 4:40 PM GDR has not replied

GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 306 of 378 (569382)
07-21-2010 4:33 PM
Reply to: Message 304 by jar
07-21-2010 3:42 PM


Re: Bump for GDR
jar writes:
The vast majority of folk did not believe Paul.
It really is that simple.
Where is the evidence for that?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 304 by jar, posted 07-21-2010 3:42 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 308 by crashfrog, posted 07-21-2010 4:42 PM GDR has not replied
 Message 309 by Theodoric, posted 07-21-2010 4:43 PM GDR has not replied
 Message 312 by jar, posted 07-21-2010 5:30 PM GDR has not replied

Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 307 of 378 (569384)
07-21-2010 4:40 PM
Reply to: Message 305 by GDR
07-21-2010 4:31 PM


Re: wiki
I don't know of anything that was written except what was written after the fact.
Decades and centuries after the fact. I will take this as your admission that you spoke incorrectly when you stated the following
GDR writes:
I believe that the historical evidence for the bodily resurrection of Jesus is much stronger than for the argument against it...
I also contend that there is at least as much empirical evidence about Jesus, (if you call historical literature as empirical evidence), as there is for any other historical figure.
Message 102
It seems you have no evidence at all.

Facts don\'t lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

This message is a reply to:
 Message 305 by GDR, posted 07-21-2010 4:31 PM GDR has not replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 308 of 378 (569385)
07-21-2010 4:42 PM
Reply to: Message 306 by GDR
07-21-2010 4:33 PM


Re: Bump for GDR
Where is the evidence for that?
How popular is Christianity in the Middle East these days?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 306 by GDR, posted 07-21-2010 4:33 PM GDR has not replied

Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 309 of 378 (569386)
07-21-2010 4:43 PM
Reply to: Message 306 by GDR
07-21-2010 4:33 PM


Evidence
Where is the evidence for that?
That Christianity was a minor cult for generations should be evidence enough.

Facts don\'t lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

This message is a reply to:
 Message 306 by GDR, posted 07-21-2010 4:33 PM GDR has not replied

GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 310 of 378 (569387)
07-21-2010 4:49 PM


You guys define the rules for what constitutes evidence and you don't follow them yourselves.

Replies to this message:
 Message 311 by Theodoric, posted 07-21-2010 4:56 PM GDR has not replied
 Message 313 by ringo, posted 07-21-2010 5:36 PM GDR has not replied

Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 311 of 378 (569388)
07-21-2010 4:56 PM
Reply to: Message 310 by GDR
07-21-2010 4:49 PM


You need to explain what the problem is
If you have a problem with the evidence presented you need to clearly articulate what that problem is. I and I am sure others are unable to read your mind and know what your objections are. So quit being cryptic and tell us what is wrong with the evidence presented.
If the majority of people in the years after 36 C.E. believed Paul, then there would have been a groundswell of christianity at this time. This is not seen. There is no historical record of this happening. Also, there would have been some sort of mention in chronicles of the time. If the majority of people believed Paul there would have been huge social and political ramifications. We see none.
That is the evidence. Care to refute it? Evidence is presented. The ball is in your court.
Edited by Theodoric, : spelling

Facts don\'t lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

This message is a reply to:
 Message 310 by GDR, posted 07-21-2010 4:49 PM GDR has not replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 312 of 378 (569392)
07-21-2010 5:30 PM
Reply to: Message 306 by GDR
07-21-2010 4:33 PM


Re: Bump for GDR
The evidence is that until Christianity became a State Religion it remained a minor Jewish Sect.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 306 by GDR, posted 07-21-2010 4:33 PM GDR has not replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 313 of 378 (569393)
07-21-2010 5:36 PM
Reply to: Message 310 by GDR
07-21-2010 4:49 PM


GDR writes:
You guys define the rules for what constitutes evidence and you don't follow them yourselves.
Oh, come on. What you're talking about is hearsay at best and second-hand or third-hand hearsay at that. The "evidence" that you've suggested would be laughed out of any court in the land.

I rode off into the sunset, went all the way around the world and now I\'m back where I started.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 310 by GDR, posted 07-21-2010 4:49 PM GDR has not replied

GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 314 of 378 (569396)
07-21-2010 5:48 PM


If nothing else the Bible is an historical document which you can either accept as evidence or reject in the same way. It exists. You can say that you don't believe there is justfication for accepting it or not. Frankly it doesn't matter to me if you do or you don't; I am interested in discussion and am not really concerned with scoring debating points.
There are all sorts of things in life that we can consider and decide what it is we believe. I accept certain things in life as do all of us. Faith in nothing is still faith.

Replies to this message:
 Message 315 by crashfrog, posted 07-21-2010 6:01 PM GDR has replied
 Message 325 by Kapyong, posted 07-23-2010 6:33 PM GDR has not replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 315 of 378 (569397)
07-21-2010 6:01 PM
Reply to: Message 314 by GDR
07-21-2010 5:48 PM


If nothing else the Bible is an historical document which you can either accept as evidence or reject in the same way.
So is Time Magazine. But a claim in Time Magazine that something happened in 33 AD isn't evidence.
The Bible is a historical document, to be sure, but it's not a contemporary document to the events that it claims to describe.
That's its critical weakness, and the reason that it can't reasonably be taken as evidence for any of the events it describes.
I am interested in discussion and am not really concerned with scoring debating points.
So let's discuss the evidence for the existence and resurrection of Jesus Christ, which you led us to believe was "overwhelming." You accepted that the resurrection of Christ would surely be an "extraordinary" event. Doesn't such an event require extraordinary evidence to support it? To say that Jesus Christ existed is not at all the same as saying Julius Caesar existed, because nobody claims Caesar as lord and savior, or claims he did miracles on the floor of the Roman Senate.
But there's mountains more evidence for the existence of Caesar than for the existence of Jesus. For instance, Caesar's face is on the money printed during his reign. His name appears in all manner of records and contemporary writings, just as Obama's name appears all over the news, now. That's what it looks like when revolutionary, influential figures actually exist - the overall curve of "name-checking" is highest during the period where they're alive, active, and prominent, and then drops off as they fade from the public eye. That's true now and it was true in AD 33's largest bureaucratic society.
But for mythical figures, it's exactly the opposite. During the time they're supposed to have lived there's nothing - because they didn't exist yet. It's only at a decades'-remove from the supposed time of their existence that word begins to spread. And that's precisely the pattern we see with Jesus - the earliest accounts of his ministry are decades after he died, and years after any potential disconfirming witnesses have fallen into obscurity or death. The earliest accounts of his miracles are eight decades after he supposedly did them.
That's not a historical pattern that supports existence. It's a pattern that is most consistent with mythical figures, like Merlin and the knights of the Round Table, the Greek heroes of myth, or Kilroy, of the famous "Kilroy was here."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 314 by GDR, posted 07-21-2010 5:48 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 316 by GDR, posted 07-21-2010 7:00 PM crashfrog has replied

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