Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
1 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,818 Year: 3,075/9,624 Month: 920/1,588 Week: 103/223 Day: 1/13 Hour: 0/1


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   The Existence of Jesus Christ
hooah212002
Member (Idle past 802 days)
Posts: 3193
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 346 of 378 (573728)
08-12-2010 3:17 PM
Reply to: Message 345 by John 10:10
08-12-2010 3:12 PM


Re: Magic Transformation of the Unrepentant
So, Apothecus is right. He just used different words than you. The evidence can only be seen if you make the "leap of faith", so to speak. There is no evidence that is available to non-believers.

"A still more glorious dawn awaits
Not a sunrise, but a galaxy rise
A morning filled with 400 billion suns
The rising of the milky way"
-Carl Sagan

This message is a reply to:
 Message 345 by John 10:10, posted 08-12-2010 3:12 PM John 10:10 has not replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 347 of 378 (573757)
08-12-2010 4:36 PM
Reply to: Message 345 by John 10:10
08-12-2010 3:12 PM


Re: Magic Transformation of the Unrepentant
John 10:10 writes:
This gospel is available to all God is calling to Himself, to the "whosoever wills" of this world, not the "whosoeverwont's" of this world.
I'm afraid that's a two-edged sword, son. You might not be the one that God is calling. You might be the one who's blind.
That's why the science forums want evidence that everybody can see.

Life is like a Hot Wheels car. Sometimes it goes behind the couch and you can't find it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 345 by John 10:10, posted 08-12-2010 3:12 PM John 10:10 has not replied

Apothecus
Member (Idle past 2411 days)
Posts: 275
From: CA USA
Joined: 01-05-2010


Message 348 of 378 (573884)
08-12-2010 11:21 PM
Reply to: Message 345 by John 10:10
08-12-2010 3:12 PM


Re: Magic Transformation of the Unrepentant
There is nothing magic about the brains of the unrepentant, they are just blind...
So, John, what exactly happens to the heart (brain) of a believer of 35 years who ceases to believe? (And no offense, but please, in advance, spare me your pity for "losing my faith". Honestly, it was both the hardest and best thing that ever happened to me.)
Is it a "reverse transformation"? Suddenly, everything that had once been revealed to me is now veiled? Or had I not, nor had I ever been as True a Scotsman as one such as you?
It didn't feel like anything special happened to me during the time I stopped believing. I certainly don't believe I have less knowledge than I did when I was a true believer. Quite the opposite, in fact. Obviously I must have unconsciously "lost" something during my deconversion which either I never knew I had, or, upon losing "it", underwent some sort of selective amnesia for anything pertaining to revelation.
Beats me. How would I know, right?
Anyway, I'd be interested in your views of my situation...
Have a good one.

"My own suspicion is that the Universe is not only queerer than we suppose, but queerer than we can suppose. J.B.S Haldane 1892-1964

This message is a reply to:
 Message 345 by John 10:10, posted 08-12-2010 3:12 PM John 10:10 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 349 by John 10:10, posted 08-14-2010 3:41 PM Apothecus has replied

John 10:10
Member (Idle past 2996 days)
Posts: 766
From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA
Joined: 02-01-2006


Message 349 of 378 (574199)
08-14-2010 3:41 PM
Reply to: Message 348 by Apothecus
08-12-2010 11:21 PM


Transformation of the repentant
If you are genuinely interested, I will give you my views.
Let's start with "Suddenly, everything that had once been revealed to me is now veiled."
Revealed is a very powerful truth word. What exactly was revealed to you that is now veiled?
If you would rather carry on in private messaging, do so. Otherwise, we can do so here.
Blessings

This message is a reply to:
 Message 348 by Apothecus, posted 08-12-2010 11:21 PM Apothecus has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 350 by Theodoric, posted 08-14-2010 4:49 PM John 10:10 has not replied
 Message 351 by hooah212002, posted 08-14-2010 5:37 PM John 10:10 has not replied
 Message 352 by Apothecus, posted 08-14-2010 10:04 PM John 10:10 has replied

Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 350 of 378 (574206)
08-14-2010 4:49 PM
Reply to: Message 349 by John 10:10
08-14-2010 3:41 PM


I think not
Otherwise, we can do so here.
No, because that would just continue your multitude of off topic posts.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 349 by John 10:10, posted 08-14-2010 3:41 PM John 10:10 has not replied

hooah212002
Member (Idle past 802 days)
Posts: 3193
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 351 of 378 (574210)
08-14-2010 5:37 PM
Reply to: Message 349 by John 10:10
08-14-2010 3:41 PM


Re: Transformation of the repentant
So you admittedly have no hard evidence?
I can equivocate jesus/god to a fart. I can feel a fart but cannot prove that fart until I actually do so. However, once I do fart, there is evidence. So there is more evidence for a fart than there is the abrahamic god/savior. I could say "I have to fart". You might say "prove it". I couldn't. However, once I actually do produce said bowel movement, there is proof. Can you produce equal evidence for your god or for jesus?

"A still more glorious dawn awaits
Not a sunrise, but a galaxy rise
A morning filled with 400 billion suns
The rising of the milky way"
-Carl Sagan

This message is a reply to:
 Message 349 by John 10:10, posted 08-14-2010 3:41 PM John 10:10 has not replied

Apothecus
Member (Idle past 2411 days)
Posts: 275
From: CA USA
Joined: 01-05-2010


Message 352 of 378 (574231)
08-14-2010 10:04 PM
Reply to: Message 349 by John 10:10
08-14-2010 3:41 PM


Re: Transformation of the repentant
Hey J10:10,
If you are genuinely interested, I will give you my views.
No, I'm genuinely interested and I'd rather do it here than PM. I'm curious, since I've never gotten a direct, succinct answer.
Revealed is a very powerful truth word.
I can remember all kinds of stuff from when I was a believer. Heck, I can remember loads of worship, vacation bible school, youth fellowship, bible study, missions, church choir...I ate it all up. I assume since the Holy Spirit was with me and, in my heart (brain), I accepted Jesus as my personal Savior, I believed in Creation, the GOE, the Fludde, Exodus, the whale, death/resurrection, etc... that this was "revelation". Am I incorrect? Because I sure thought I knew it all back then.
What exactly was revealed to you that is now veiled?
Hey John, how the hell should I know? Apparently since only those endowed with the Holy Spirit can ascertain the meaning associated with a strictly literal interpretation of a God-inspired bible, shouldn't I have lost all of it when I deconverted?
You tell me...these are your beliefs.

"My own suspicion is that the Universe is not only queerer than we suppose, but queerer than we can suppose. J.B.S Haldane 1892-1964

This message is a reply to:
 Message 349 by John 10:10, posted 08-14-2010 3:41 PM John 10:10 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 353 by John 10:10, posted 08-15-2010 9:33 PM Apothecus has replied

John 10:10
Member (Idle past 2996 days)
Posts: 766
From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA
Joined: 02-01-2006


Message 353 of 378 (574433)
08-15-2010 9:33 PM
Reply to: Message 352 by Apothecus
08-14-2010 10:04 PM


Re: Transformation of the repentant
Hey J10:10,
If you are genuinely interested, I will give you my views.
No, I'm genuinely interested and I'd rather do it here than PM. I'm curious, since I've never gotten a direct, succinct answer.
Revealed is a very powerful truth word.
I can remember all kinds of stuff from when I was a believer. Heck, I can remember loads of worship, vacation bible school, youth fellowship, bible study, missions, church choir...I ate it all up. I assume since the Holy Spirit was with me and, in my heart (brain), I accepted Jesus as my personal Savior, I believed in Creation, the GOE, the Fludde, Exodus, the whale, death/resurrection, etc... that this was "revelation". Am I incorrect? Because I sure thought I knew it all back then.
What exactly was revealed to you that is now veiled?
Hey John, how the hell should I know? Apparently since only those endowed with the Holy Spirit can ascertain the meaning associated with a strictly literal interpretation of a God-inspired bible, shouldn't I have lost all of it when I deconverted?
You tell me...these are your beliefs.
Yes, I too believe in most of the things you mention above, but one more thing is needed.
What happened at some point in your life when everything you assumed you believed in no longer made sense, you began to lose your beliefs, and you deconverted?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 352 by Apothecus, posted 08-14-2010 10:04 PM Apothecus has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 354 by Apothecus, posted 08-16-2010 8:59 AM John 10:10 has replied

Apothecus
Member (Idle past 2411 days)
Posts: 275
From: CA USA
Joined: 01-05-2010


(1)
Message 354 of 378 (574499)
08-16-2010 8:59 AM
Reply to: Message 353 by John 10:10
08-15-2010 9:33 PM


Re: Transformation of the repentant
Thanks for the reply, J10:10.
...but one more thing is needed.
What happened at some point in your life when everything you assumed you believed in no longer made sense, you began to lose your beliefs, and you deconverted?
*lies back*
Well, doctor, I don't think there was any one defining moment which marked my refusal to take on faith the many things I found silly, unreasonable, or downright false. Gradually, after plently of soul searching (and actual searching), I just looked at the absence of major differences between any other historical religion (Greek, Roman, Mayan, etc...) and Christianity and concluded, rationally, that I couldn't be honest with myself and still believe it any longer.
In short, the cognitive dissonance was deafening. Simple as that.
Your turn. In your mind, at this point in time, your eyes (as a devout believer) are as wide open and receptive to the truth of Christianity as they'll ever be. Mine were once like yours. Am I now like an old broken AM radio which, while it worked fine to tune into Savage Nation at one point, no longer functions at that particular station on the dial?
Like I said, I don't feel any different, and it certainly seems like I have all the same knowledge and memories from that point in my life. But I must have changed in some way, yes? If not, then believers' circular claims (that the only way for an individual to ever truly understand Christianity and all that it entails is to fully and completely accept Jesus as his savior) fall flat.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 353 by John 10:10, posted 08-15-2010 9:33 PM John 10:10 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 355 by John 10:10, posted 08-16-2010 11:28 AM Apothecus has replied

John 10:10
Member (Idle past 2996 days)
Posts: 766
From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA
Joined: 02-01-2006


Message 355 of 378 (574530)
08-16-2010 11:28 AM
Reply to: Message 354 by Apothecus
08-16-2010 8:59 AM


Re: Transformation of the repentant
Apothecus,
Thanks for being open and honest with me, unlike some others at this forum who put down the messenger instead of having a real message dialogue. Yes, it's my turn.
I have gone through all the things you once believed were true, and much much more. I grew in up a Christian home, attending a large Baptist church until I graduated from high school. At the age of 9, I made a profession of Jesus as my Savoir and was water baptized. In college I drifted far from my Christian roots, spending 5 years partying as a frat boy, but still graduated with a degree in Engineering Physics, and then went on to 45 year career in the nuclear energy business. I married the love of my life at 23, and made the commitment to get back to my Christian roots. From then until I was 29 I grew in knowledge of the Bible, but I cannot say Jesus as a person was very real to me. We moved to CA when I was 26, and joined a Baptist church. For 3 years I did everything I could "do" in the church; choir, taught SS class, visitation, revivals, etc. But nothing "I" did brought me into the intimate relationship with the Jesus of the Bible other Christians seemed to have. In fact, the more I tried to make Christianity real to me, the further away God seemed to be. Then I went through a month of what some call "the dark night of the soul" where God completely withdrew Himself from me. In despair I went to the pastor, explained my desperation to him, asked for prayer, but in truth he could offer me no relief for my soul in desperate need of a real God. But I did not give up and leave the church. Then one evening a short time later as I went out on visitation with another guy in the church to visit those who had recently visited the church, God did something totally unexpected or asked for. For 2 hours I/we witnessed to our faith in Jesus to the father of the two boys who had visited our church. He was somewhat familiar with Catholicism, but not familiar evangelical Christianity. When we got to the home, I was still the same person in desperate need of a real God of today, not just a historical God of the Bible. But the more we told the father about the God of the Bible, something began to happen inside of me. By the time we left 2 hours later, we felt like we were floating through the air on the way back to the church. When we got back to to the church, we were jumping up and down and praising God for who He is, not for who He was. We realized that God had just filled/baptized us with the gift of the Holy Spirit to be His witnesses as He said he would in Acts 1:5. Since that night 39 years ago, I have been on a life long quest to really know this God of the Bible who became real to me for the first time.
My favorite Bible verse during this 39 year quest to know God is Phil 3:10,
"That I may know Him and the power of His resurrection and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death."
This is my testimony in a nutshell.
Blessings
Edited by John 10:10, : No reason given.
Edited by John 10:10, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 354 by Apothecus, posted 08-16-2010 8:59 AM Apothecus has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 356 by Apothecus, posted 08-18-2010 3:00 PM John 10:10 has replied

Apothecus
Member (Idle past 2411 days)
Posts: 275
From: CA USA
Joined: 01-05-2010


(1)
Message 356 of 378 (574951)
08-18-2010 3:00 PM
Reply to: Message 355 by John 10:10
08-16-2010 11:28 AM


Re: Transformation of the repentant
Hello John10:10,
Thanks for your detailed and thoughtful description of your journey ... seems like an interesting one.
But I'm not sure if your testimony was intended to be presented as a parallel to my own in order to highlight ... something? If so, then I can't but feel like you're missing the point.
Then I went through a month of what some call "the dark night of the soul" where God completely withdrew Himself from me.
It should be clear by this statement that our situations are strikingly different. You were greatly dismayed at what you perceived to be God's withdrawal from your life, and desperately sought to find him again, yes? My own experience was more of an "awakening" to a world where nothing is preordained, biblical free will is nonexistant, and while many portions of the bible may very well be factual historically speaking, most (IMO) are relegated to the myth bin. It was refreshing to come to the understanding that I was free to choose my own moral path and not be guided or constrained by the overlooming threat of damnation and judgement. I'll admit that there was a momentary pang of regret that, according to my belief, I wouldn't spend eternity (!) with those whom I loved in life after I died. But just for one short moment...(can you imagine spending eternity with anyone???) And I can tell you that after experiencing that epiphany, I've never looked back.
Testimonials aside, my question (as ever) remains unanswered. I'm sure even though you thought God left you at one point, you did not leave him, and your unwavering faith in him meant that no "mark" was left when you finally found him again. In other words, you didn't "lose" any type of spiritual "insight" into your faith in that interim which you subsequently reacquired, correct?
So my question, again, is since many fundamentalists I've spoken with claim a degree of "spiritual (magic) understanding" follows accepting Christ as one's savior (an understanding that, according to them, is "unattainable" by the unrepentant), I assume the reverse is true as well. Did I lose something in my deconversion?
Because it sure seems quite the opposite...
Have a good one.

"My own suspicion is that the Universe is not only queerer than we suppose, but queerer than we can suppose. J.B.S Haldane 1892-1964

This message is a reply to:
 Message 355 by John 10:10, posted 08-16-2010 11:28 AM John 10:10 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 357 by John 10:10, posted 08-18-2010 10:57 PM Apothecus has replied

John 10:10
Member (Idle past 2996 days)
Posts: 766
From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA
Joined: 02-01-2006


Message 357 of 378 (575128)
08-18-2010 10:57 PM
Reply to: Message 356 by Apothecus
08-18-2010 3:00 PM


Re: Transformation of the repentant
Hi again Apothecus,
Quite the quantrary, during my "dark night of the soul" experience, I doubted everything I thought I knew about this God of the Bible, especially whether I ever really knew Him personally and the salvation He supposedly gives. Since then I've read many stories about men and women who have gone before that have had similar experiences as mine. Their testimonies and mine as well say that God does this not to make our spiritual journey difficult, but to try our faith to see if we're willing to walk on "naked faith" until "faith as a substance" comes.
The key for me and for many like me is that faith is not only the substance of what we believe is true (Heb 11:1), faith is a Person where God gives to us the gift of His Spirit so that the Spirit takes the words of Jesus as recorded in the Bible and discloses them to us (John 14:17, 16:13-15). So yes, as you say to some degree
quote:
"spiritual (magic) understanding" follows accepting Christ as one's savior (an understanding that, according to them, is "unattainable" by the unrepentant).
Did you lose something in your deconversion? Quite possibly you did for Gen 6:3 says this, "My Spirit will not strive with man forever." If there is absolutely no desire on your part to know this God of the Bible and to re-enter into a relationship with Him, then after 35 years of believing in the God of the Bible, you have lost something. Can whatever you lost be re-gained? Yes, you can, but just re-gaining what you lost would be of no help to you. It didn't help you then from turning your back on this God of the Bible, and it won't help you now.
When you read my testimony, the thing that made the real difference in my life is what God did for me, giving me the "fulness of His Spirit." During my first 29 years, I certainly had a measure of real faith and a measure of God's Spirit. But during the last 39 years, I have moved into such a "knowing faith" that I could no more doubt the reality of God than I could doubt my 45 year marriage relationship with my wife.
Heb 11:6 says this, "And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him."
Why are some rewarded for seeking Him, and some do not seem to be rewarded for seeking Him? If I could answer this question, we could shut down all the Bible Forums and many churches, and everyone could come and listen to me.
But this one truth I do know,
"The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance." 2 Peter 3:9
and to faith in Him.
Blessings
Edited by John 10:10, : changed word

This message is a reply to:
 Message 356 by Apothecus, posted 08-18-2010 3:00 PM Apothecus has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 358 by Apothecus, posted 08-24-2010 10:23 PM John 10:10 has replied

Apothecus
Member (Idle past 2411 days)
Posts: 275
From: CA USA
Joined: 01-05-2010


Message 358 of 378 (576649)
08-24-2010 10:23 PM
Reply to: Message 357 by John 10:10
08-18-2010 10:57 PM


Re: Transformation of the repentant
Thanks J10:10,
Quite the quantrary, during my "dark night of the soul" experience, I doubted everything I thought I knew about this God of the Bible, especially whether I ever really knew Him personally and the salvation He supposedly gives.
I think you're being dodgy. Doubting is different from what could be called "supernatural amnesia".
1. Do you believe one who has never "known" God or accepted Jesus as his savior has not the ability to understand His plan for salvation, etc, etc...?
2. Has one lost this understanding one once had as a believer, if one no longer believes?
Did you lose something in your deconversion? Quite possibly you did for Gen 6:3 says this, "My Spirit will not strive with man forever." If there is absolutely no desire on your part to know this God of the Bible and to re-enter into a relationship with Him, then after 35 years of believing in the God of the Bible, you have lost something.
Ah. So as ever, I won't get a satisfactory response. It seems to me to be a bit contradictory for the extremely devout (I'm not accusing you of this) I've come across to claim that those who haven't accepted Jesus as personal savior can't hope to understand, comprehend, or accept anything ranging from alleged biblical archeological "evidence" to examples of God's "Moral Code" in society. According to these folks, until you do so, a veil will ever obscure your view of the "real world."
I'm sorry, but I'm throwing the BS flag.
Thanks for the effort, J10:10, but your argument was unconvincing. Honestly, the key veil in this case was the one which was lifted at the time of my deconversion.
But thank you, all the same.
Have a good one.

"My own suspicion is that the Universe is not only queerer than we suppose, but queerer than we can suppose. J.B.S Haldane 1892-1964

This message is a reply to:
 Message 357 by John 10:10, posted 08-18-2010 10:57 PM John 10:10 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 359 by John 10:10, posted 08-26-2010 9:46 AM Apothecus has seen this message but not replied

John 10:10
Member (Idle past 2996 days)
Posts: 766
From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA
Joined: 02-01-2006


Message 359 of 378 (576886)
08-26-2010 9:46 AM
Reply to: Message 358 by Apothecus
08-24-2010 10:23 PM


Re: Transformation of the repentant
Apothecus,
You asked,
quote:
Do you believe one who has never "known" God or accepted Jesus as his savior has not the ability to understand His plan for salvation, etc, etc...?
Yes, I believe they do when the Father draws them to the salvation that's in Christ Jesus (John 6:44).
quote:
Has one lost this understanding one once had as a believer, if one no longer believes?
Yes, I believe they do because the Spirit of God may no longer be striving with them.
quote:
Ah. So as ever, I won't get a satisfactory response. It seems to me to be a bit contradictory for the extremely devout (I'm not accusing you of this) I've come across to claim that those who haven't accepted Jesus as personal savior can't hope to understand, comprehend, or accept anything ranging from alleged biblical archeological "evidence" to examples of God's "Moral Code" in society. According to these folks, until you do so, a veil will ever obscure your view of the "real world."
I probably will never be able to give you a satisfactory response as to why you turned from what you believed for 35 years. I will say this, you are by far the exception, not the rule. Many truths of the Bible can be clearly understood by both unbelievers and Believers alike, such as God's moral codes. But when it comes to understanding who God is, and entering into relationship with Him, it takes the "measure of faith" God has given to every man (Rom 12:3). I believe some reject this measure of faith in the beginning, and never look back. I believe others start down the journey of faith, and then turn back. You are by far the exception to have done this after 35 years.
As I shared earlier, the experience I received after walking somewhat shakily with God for 20 years that made Him so real to me was the infilling of the Holy Spirit. Since then I have never doubted who God is or my relationship with Him. Does this mean my life has been all peaches and cream since then? No, it doesn't!
quote:
"Through many tribulations we must enter the kingdom of God." (Acts 14:22)
I hope the veil that was lifted at the time of your deconversion provides everything you are looking for in this life.
Blessings

This message is a reply to:
 Message 358 by Apothecus, posted 08-24-2010 10:23 PM Apothecus has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 360 by jar, posted 08-26-2010 9:48 AM John 10:10 has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 360 of 378 (576888)
08-26-2010 9:48 AM
Reply to: Message 359 by John 10:10
08-26-2010 9:46 AM


Spirited Burritos
John 10:10 writes:
As I shared earlier, the experience I received after walking somewhat shakily with God for 20 years that made Him so real to me was the infilling of the Holy Spirit.
How did you test and confirm that it was the Holy Spirit and not an exceptional burrito?
What does this have to do with the existence of Jesus Christ?
Edited by jar, : fix subtitle

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 359 by John 10:10, posted 08-26-2010 9:46 AM John 10:10 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 361 by John 10:10, posted 08-26-2010 1:52 PM jar has replied

Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024