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Author Topic:   For Wolf - Prophecy, Coincidence, or Made Up?
CK
Member (Idle past 4149 days)
Posts: 3221
Joined: 07-04-2004


Message 61 of 113 (231704)
08-10-2005 4:39 AM


BUMP FOR TAL
Any chance we will see this "evidence" soon?

  
Wolf
Inactive Member


Message 62 of 113 (231767)
08-10-2005 9:14 AM
Reply to: Message 59 by Rahvin
08-09-2005 7:59 PM


Amazing how so many other beliefs parallel those of the Christian faith. Of course you know it was Satan who came along and confused the people so they would not know who the true savior was right? My guess Christianity is a thief of those religions made law by Constantine. I saw a National Geographic show where there was evidence of a meteor that struck the ground about the same time Constantine went to war with his rival, hence his god given sign...
I wonder where Christianity would be right now had Constantine not made it the Empires Official religion.

"A Dwarf on a Giants Shoulder sees the Furthest of the Two!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 59 by Rahvin, posted 08-09-2005 7:59 PM Rahvin has not replied

  
Wolf
Inactive Member


Message 63 of 113 (231795)
08-10-2005 10:17 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Tal
08-09-2005 1:44 PM


Tal I will have to say I agree with Jar on that first passage, I looked over the other ones and don't see it like you do. Different times different people. If he did exist he knew the OT well and fulfilled them himself. Or the storyteller fulfilled it. From my understanding 30 silver was not very much money. That was (memory failing) either one weeks pay or a months pay for a sons labor on his fathers farm. Hardly worth giving up the Messiah for.
It's hard for me to understand how someone can believe in stories written by people thousands of years ago. Their way of life and knowledge of the world was severally lacking compared to ours. Curses were taken very seriously. Why is Christianity right and not other religions of today? Or other religions that are now considered myth? Where is God now? I would say there is more sin now, than during the supposed great flood. Also look up Deucalion, why is the story about him myth and not Noah? Historians wrote about Mithra so it must be true as well. If not why is Jesus, which Josephus writings about him have been brought into serious question.
**Edit**
What about the other Gospels that have been found. Why are they not official? Why do the Dead Sea scrolls that date up to about 70 CE, make no mention of Jesus?
**Edit 2**
L. Michael White:
Professor of Classics and Director of the Religious Studies Program University of Texas at Austin
From a historical perspective what we really know about the life of Jesus is very, very limited depending on which gospel you read. His actual career may be something less then one year and maybe even as little as only a few months, whereas in John's Gospel his career is nearly three years long. So there are these kinds of historical discrepancies among the gospels themselves. They range from the way his birth occurred to the actual day on which he was executed and even to the kinds of teachings and miracles that he performs throughout his career. As a result we begin to see that the gospels themselves are not as useable as historical information as we might have hoped.
This message has been edited by Wolf, 08-10-2005 07:32 AM
This message has been edited by Wolf, 08-10-2005 07:40 AM

"A Dwarf on a Giants Shoulder sees the Furthest of the Two!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Tal, posted 08-09-2005 1:44 PM Tal has not replied

  
CK
Member (Idle past 4149 days)
Posts: 3221
Joined: 07-04-2004


Message 64 of 113 (231802)
08-10-2005 10:27 AM


Summary of presented evidence

  
jar
Member (Idle past 415 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 65 of 113 (231806)
08-10-2005 10:39 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Tal
08-09-2005 1:44 PM


Since Tal seems to have abandoned yet another thread
let's look at the second claimed prophecy. Tal claims that Micah5:2 is a prophecy that Jesus will be born in Bethlehem.
Unfortuantely, if you read Micah 5 it doesn't say that. Istead it prdicts that a Military leader will come from the Clan (not the city) of Bethelehem. That ruler will be one that conquers Assyria by the sword, a war lord and certyainly not a character like Jesus.
So the score is two prophecies claimed, neither supported.
Micah 5:
A Promised Ruler From Bethlehem
1 Marshal your troops, O city of troops, [a]
for a siege is laid against us.
They will strike Israel's ruler
on the cheek with a rod.
2 "But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah,
though you are small among the clans [ b] of Judah,
out of you will come for me
one who will be ruler over Israel,
whose origins [c] are from of old,
from ancient times. [d] "
3 Therefore Israel will be abandoned
until the time when she who is in labor gives birth
and the rest of his brothers return
to join the Israelites.
4 He will stand and shepherd his flock
in the strength of the LORD,
in the majesty of the name of the LORD his God.
And they will live securely, for then his greatness
will reach to the ends of the earth.
5 And he will be their peace.
Deliverance and Destruction
When the Assyrian invades our land
and marches through our fortresses,
we will raise against him seven shepherds,
even eight leaders of men.
6 They will rule [e] the land of Assyria with the sword,
the land of Nimrod with drawn sword. [f]
He will deliver us from the Assyrian
when he invades our land
and marches into our borders.
7 The remnant of Jacob will be
in the midst of many peoples
like dew from the LORD,
like showers on the grass,
which do not wait for man
or linger for mankind.
8 The remnant of Jacob will be among the nations,
in the midst of many peoples,
like a lion among the beasts of the forest,
like a young lion among flocks of sheep,
which mauls and mangles as it goes,
and no one can rescue.
9 Your hand will be lifted up in triumph over your enemies,
and all your foes will be destroyed.
10 "In that day," declares the LORD,
"I will destroy your horses from among you
and demolish your chariots.
11 I will destroy the cities of your land
and tear down all your strongholds.
12 I will destroy your witchcraft
and you will no longer cast spells.
13 I will destroy your carved images
and your sacred stones from among you;
you will no longer bow down
to the work of your hands.
14 I will uproot from among you your Asherah poles [g]
and demolish your cities.
15 I will take vengeance in anger and wrath
upon the nations that have not obeyed me."

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Tal, posted 08-09-2005 1:44 PM Tal has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 66 by Tal, posted 08-10-2005 10:54 AM jar has replied

  
Tal
Member (Idle past 5698 days)
Posts: 1140
From: Fort Bragg, NC
Joined: 12-29-2004


Message 66 of 113 (231813)
08-10-2005 10:54 AM
Reply to: Message 65 by jar
08-10-2005 10:39 AM


Not at your conveniece Jar
I've already covered what category you fall in jar. No need for me to respond to your posts further.

"Why not go to war just for oil? We need oil. What do Hollywood celebrities imagine fuels their private jets? How do they think their cocaine is delivered to them?"
--Ann Coulter

This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by jar, posted 08-10-2005 10:39 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 67 by jar, posted 08-10-2005 11:06 AM Tal has not replied
 Message 68 by CK, posted 08-10-2005 11:06 AM Tal has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 415 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 67 of 113 (231816)
08-10-2005 11:06 AM
Reply to: Message 66 by Tal
08-10-2005 10:54 AM


Let's see if Tal can support ANY of his assertions.
Tal, you have a habit of posting incorrect and inaccurate cut&paste jobs, then when they are challenged you simply wander off to spam some other thread.
You started this thread. I responded to your OP. I have shown that the first two prophecies you quoted were incorrect.
Let's look at number three and number 4.
You claim "Be hated without cause Isaiah 49:7 and Psalms 69:4"
Is Isaiah 49 about Jesus?
Look at the final verse.
26 I will make your oppressors eat their own flesh;
they will be drunk on their own blood, as with wine.
Then all mankind will know
that I, the LORD, am your Savior,
your Redeemer, the Mighty One of Jacob."
Does that sound like Jesus? Not in my opinion.
Isaiah 49 is a lament in exile and a predition that Israel will rise again.
Psalm 69 is also a general lament. Here it is in its entirety.
Psalm 69
For the director of music. To the tune of "Lilies." Of David.
1 Save me, O God,
for the waters have come up to my neck.
2 I sink in the miry depths,
where there is no foothold.
I have come into the deep waters;
the floods engulf me.
3 I am worn out calling for help;
my throat is parched.
My eyes fail,
looking for my God.
4 Those who hate me without reason
outnumber the hairs of my head;
many are my enemies without cause,
those who seek to destroy me.
I am forced to restore
what I did not steal.
5 You know my folly, O God;
my guilt is not hidden from you.
6 May those who hope in you
not be disgraced because of me,
O Lord, the LORD Almighty;
may those who seek you
not be put to shame because of me,
O God of Israel.
7 For I endure scorn for your sake,
and shame covers my face.
8 I am a stranger to my brothers,
an alien to my own mother's sons;
9 for zeal for your house consumes me,
and the insults of those who insult you fall on me.
10 When I weep and fast,
I must endure scorn;
11 when I put on sackcloth,
people make sport of me.
12 Those who sit at the gate mock me,
and I am the song of the drunkards.
13 But I pray to you, O LORD,
in the time of your favor;
in your great love, O God,
answer me with your sure salvation.
14 Rescue me from the mire,
do not let me sink;
deliver me from those who hate me,
from the deep waters.
15 Do not let the floodwaters engulf me
or the depths swallow me up
or the pit close its mouth over me.
16 Answer me, O LORD, out of the goodness of your love;
in your great mercy turn to me.
17 Do not hide your face from your servant;
answer me quickly, for I am in trouble.
18 Come near and rescue me;
redeem me because of my foes.
19 You know how I am scorned, disgraced and shamed;
all my enemies are before you.
20 Scorn has broken my heart
and has left me helpless;
I looked for sympathy, but there was none,
for comforters, but I found none.
21 They put gall in my food
and gave me vinegar for my thirst.
22 May the table set before them become a snare;
may it become retribution and [a] a trap.
23 May their eyes be darkened so they cannot see,
and their backs be bent forever.
24 Pour out your wrath on them;
let your fierce anger overtake them.
25 May their place be deserted;
let there be no one to dwell in their tents.
26 For they persecute those you wound
and talk about the pain of those you hurt.
27 Charge them with crime upon crime;
do not let them share in your salvation.
28 May they be blotted out of the book of life
and not be listed with the righteous.
29 I am in pain and distress;
may your salvation, O God, protect me.
30 I will praise God's name in song
and glorify him with thanksgiving.
31 This will please the LORD more than an ox,
more than a bull with its horns and hoofs.
32 The poor will see and be glad
you who seek God, may your hearts live!
33 The LORD hears the needy
and does not despise his captive people.
34 Let heaven and earth praise him,
the seas and all that move in them,
35 for God will save Zion
and rebuild the cities of Judah.
Then people will settle there and possess it;
36 the children of his servants will inherit it,
and those who love his name will dwell there.
So as it stands right now, four alleged prophecies examined and none stand up to scrutiny.
This message has been edited by jar, 08-10-2005 10:06 AM

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 66 by Tal, posted 08-10-2005 10:54 AM Tal has not replied

  
CK
Member (Idle past 4149 days)
Posts: 3221
Joined: 07-04-2004


Message 68 of 113 (231817)
08-10-2005 11:06 AM
Reply to: Message 66 by Tal
08-10-2005 10:54 AM


Evidence - coming soon in a motion picture
This message has been edited by Charles Knight, 10-Aug-2005 11:07 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 66 by Tal, posted 08-10-2005 10:54 AM Tal has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 69 by CK, posted 08-10-2005 1:21 PM CK has not replied

  
CK
Member (Idle past 4149 days)
Posts: 3221
Joined: 07-04-2004


Message 69 of 113 (231894)
08-10-2005 1:21 PM
Reply to: Message 68 by CK
08-10-2005 11:06 AM


TAL = DODGER
any date when you plan to provide the evidence for the thread YOU start?
I realise that you are busy trying to avoid the issue on other threads but just an idea of the year would be helpful 2006? 2007?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 68 by CK, posted 08-10-2005 11:06 AM CK has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 70 by Brian, posted 08-10-2005 1:58 PM CK has replied

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 4980 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 70 of 113 (231914)
08-10-2005 1:58 PM
Reply to: Message 69 by CK
08-10-2005 1:21 PM


Re: TAL = DODGER
I think the thread is a waste of time, Tal will regurgitate boring old arguments, we will refute them, Tal doesnt have the intelligence to understand what is going on, so we are wasting our time.
He is only going to post bull from Macdowell and other equally dense apologists.
I will prophesise that Tal's arguments will be on par with that of a 12 year old.
Brian.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by CK, posted 08-10-2005 1:21 PM CK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 71 by CK, posted 08-10-2005 2:16 PM Brian has not replied

  
CK
Member (Idle past 4149 days)
Posts: 3221
Joined: 07-04-2004


Message 71 of 113 (231926)
08-10-2005 2:16 PM
Reply to: Message 70 by Brian
08-10-2005 1:58 PM


Tal keeps evading the issue and the THREAD
yeah - he's still posting on other threads but he seems to be too ashamed to come back and admit he's got nothing - it's what we've come to expect.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 70 by Brian, posted 08-10-2005 1:58 PM Brian has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 72 by Tal, posted 08-10-2005 2:33 PM CK has not replied

  
Tal
Member (Idle past 5698 days)
Posts: 1140
From: Fort Bragg, NC
Joined: 12-29-2004


Message 72 of 113 (231936)
08-10-2005 2:33 PM
Reply to: Message 71 by CK
08-10-2005 2:16 PM


Re: Tal keeps evading the issue and the THREAD
Do ya'll have ADD?
Patience children. Go play with some blocks to occupy yourselves.

Charles Knight has no patience...
"Why not go to war just for oil? We need oil. What do Hollywood celebrities imagine fuels their private jets? How do they think their cocaine is delivered to them?"
--Ann Coulter

This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by CK, posted 08-10-2005 2:16 PM CK has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 74 by Brian, posted 08-10-2005 2:43 PM Tal has not replied

  
AdminAsgara
Administrator (Idle past 2323 days)
Posts: 2073
From: The Universe
Joined: 10-11-2003


Message 73 of 113 (231937)
08-10-2005 2:35 PM


Moderator Request for Tal
Tal, you bring up an OT issue on a coffe house thread, it is suggested that you take it to the PNT > Accuracy and Inerrancy fora.
You do as suggested and then refuse to address any responses to that thread. Why even bring up an issue if you are going to blatantly refuse to discuss it?

AdminAsgara Queen of the Universe

http://asgarasworld.bravepages.com http://perditionsgate.bravepages.com

Replies to this message:
 Message 75 by Tal, posted 08-10-2005 2:46 PM AdminAsgara has replied

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 4980 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 74 of 113 (231942)
08-10-2005 2:43 PM
Reply to: Message 72 by Tal
08-10-2005 2:33 PM


Re: Tal keeps evading the issue and the THREAD
I have ADHD, and I need a laugh, so hurry up.
Or, would you rather I posted the evidence for 1-4 for you?
Brian.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 72 by Tal, posted 08-10-2005 2:33 PM Tal has not replied

  
Tal
Member (Idle past 5698 days)
Posts: 1140
From: Fort Bragg, NC
Joined: 12-29-2004


Message 75 of 113 (231944)
08-10-2005 2:46 PM
Reply to: Message 73 by AdminAsgara
08-10-2005 2:35 PM


Re: Moderator Request for Tal
Am I on a time limit? What's the rush? We aren't going to magically turn into humdragonwhales tomorrow.

Charles Knight has no patience...
"Why not go to war just for oil? We need oil. What do Hollywood celebrities imagine fuels their private jets? How do they think their cocaine is delivered to them?"
--Ann Coulter

This message is a reply to:
 Message 73 by AdminAsgara, posted 08-10-2005 2:35 PM AdminAsgara has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 76 by Rahvin, posted 08-10-2005 2:53 PM Tal has replied
 Message 77 by AdminAsgara, posted 08-10-2005 2:53 PM Tal has not replied

  
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