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Author Topic:   What is the oldest religious text?
Dr Jack
Member
Posts: 3506
From: Leicester, England
Joined: 07-14-2003


Message 16 of 56 (197409)
04-07-2005 8:43 AM
Reply to: Message 15 by watta
04-07-2005 7:37 AM


Really? Cool. Is that a recent find? Or am I merely remembering incorrectly?
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watta
Inactive Member


Message 17 of 56 (197568)
04-07-2005 8:57 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by Dr Jack
04-07-2005 8:43 AM


My understanding is that it is from analysis of a few years ago,even more astonishing,and therefore controversial, is a claim I read in the press [and thus to be taken with a grain of salt or 2] that a site in the Kimberley has been suggested to be 80,000 years old or more.The report is a few years old and I haven't heard more.Of course rhat is a really old date ..aboriginal culture is truly amazing.Actually I would like to find out more about this myself but don't have the facilities.I might try to get more info..
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hoaryhead 
Inactive Suspended Member


Message 18 of 56 (238654)
08-30-2005 6:23 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by nator
03-19-2005 10:45 PM


Modern Reference Encyclopedia
1) Hinduism - c. 1500 BC.
2) Law of Moses - 1635-1594 BC.
3) Hierglypics - c. 3000 BC.
4) Cuneforms - c. 3300 BC.
5) Gen 5.1 - c. 4148 BC.

I have read a lot of claims by Atheists, even on this web site, that Hinduism was the oldest religion.
You can imagine my shock when I read that this is trashy talk.
The encyclopedias are compiled by Atheists too.

Egypy only has believed writings as early as 3000 BC.
The first pyramid is believed to be from about 2760 BC.

What does this say about the origin of man?
The evolutionists dating of origin of man is not sustained by any evidence; only theory.

Does thia prove a young earth?

hoaryhead


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Rahvin
Member (Idle past 777 days)
Posts: 3964
Joined: 07-01-2005


Message 19 of 56 (238665)
08-30-2005 7:22 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by hoaryhead
08-30-2005 6:23 PM


Re: Modern Reference Encyclopedia
Hoaryhead, all of the references people have been using are referenceds to the first time the beliefs were written down. By that standary, the Torah, along with it's Genesis account, are not as old as the writings of the religions mentioned.

Your derived date for Creation is just that - a derived date, not the verified date of the oldest text found.

If I write a book that describes the world 2 million years ago, does that mean the belief is 2 million years old? Certainly not.

All that can be proven is the age of the texts themselves. By that measurement, we can see that the Genesis story is by no means the first written religious text.

I have read a lot of claims by Atheists, even on this web site, that Hinduism was the oldest religion.
You can imagine my shock when I read that this is trashy talk.
The encyclopedias are compiled by Atheists too.

The source of an argument is irrelevant. It doesn't matter if the "encyclopedias were written by atheists." All that matters is the evidence, and you have provided none.

Do you have any evidence that the Judaic texts are older than the Hindu Rig Veda, or the Egyptian religious writings? Do you have evidence that the religious wall paintings made by the Australian Aboriginees are not 50,000-80,000 years old as others in this thread have claimed?

You can imagine my shock when I read that this is trashy talk.

And can you make a single post without making an ad hominem attack?

What does this say about the origin of man?
The evolutionists dating of origin of man is not sustained by any evidence; only theory.

Does thia prove a young earth?

Well, if the Aboriginal writings are indeed 50-80,000 years old, that would pretty much disprove the 6,000 year old Young Earth, wouldn't it?

As to the rest - the age of writings cannot determine the age of the Earth, except that obviously a text cannot be older than the planet itself. Your comment here is off-topic and irrelevant to this discussion.


Every time a fundy breaks the laws of thermodynamics, Schroedinger probably kills his cat.
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Brian
Member (Idle past 2549 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 20 of 56 (238836)
08-31-2005 5:35 AM
Reply to: Message 18 by hoaryhead
08-30-2005 6:23 PM


Re: Modern Reference Encyclopedia
2) Law of Moses - 1635-1594 BC.

Your evidence for this would be?

Gen 5.1 - c. 4148 BC.

Your evidence for this would be?

Surely even you do not think that Genesis was written over 6000 years ago :laugh:

Brian.


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Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by Phat, posted 08-31-2005 5:57 AM Brian has responded
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Phat
Member
Posts: 10053
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 21 of 56 (238844)
08-31-2005 5:57 AM
Reply to: Message 20 by Brian
08-31-2005 5:35 AM


Re: Modern Reference Encyclopedia
Brian! Wassup? Hey, when do you think that Genesis was written? (Orally communicated,originally)?
This message is a reply to:
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ramoss
Member
Posts: 3046
Joined: 08-11-2004
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 22 of 56 (238873)
08-31-2005 7:05 AM
Reply to: Message 21 by Phat
08-31-2005 5:57 AM


Re: Modern Reference Encyclopedia
It is based on the Ugartic bible.. so the story is much older than Judaism.. it was rewritten to be one god, rather than a number of gods though.
This message is a reply to:
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Brian
Member (Idle past 2549 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 23 of 56 (238883)
08-31-2005 7:25 AM
Reply to: Message 21 by Phat
08-31-2005 5:57 AM


Re: Modern Reference Encyclopedia
Hi Phat, how's it going?

We have to remember that the book of Genesis contains texts that were written down at various periods of time, probably over a period of about 700 years.

It is difficult to date anything in the early books of the OT, for example, take the Patriarchs, there is nothing in any of their stories that is unique to any one time period so we cannot really determine when the patriarchs were supposed to have lived. Although many people tend to use the Bible itself to date the Patriarchs, this is nothing other than circular reasoning.

One quick example of how difficult it is to date Genesis is the story of Joseph. The internal clues suggests a time of around 1000 BCE (United Monarchy period) for the invention of Joseph's tale. Josephs Egyptian name, Zaphenath-paneah (Genesis 41:45) has no exact parallel in extant Egyptian records, but names with a similar structure are attested to from the 21st Dynasty (about 1070-945 B.C.) and later. (McCarter, P. K. The Patriarchal Age in Shanks (Ed) Ancient Israel: A Short History from Abraham to the Roman Destruction of the Temple Prentice Hall: Biblical Archaeological Society, Englewood Cliffs; Washington DC. page 27).

I wouldn't date any book of the Old Testament to before the exilic period. Obviously parts of the bible are very old, 'The Song of Miriam' for example, has been dated by textual similarities in Ugaritic poetry to the 13th century BCE (Cross and Freedman: (1955) Song of Miriam, JNES 14, 237-250). But these older texts are mingled in with information that is far younger. An example of this would be the store city of Pithom in Ex. 1.11, however, the name Pithom was never used for a city before the Saite period, around 610 BCE.

Brian.


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RAZD
Member
Posts: 19220
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 24 of 56 (238888)
08-31-2005 7:42 AM
Reply to: Message 19 by Rahvin
08-30-2005 7:22 PM


Re: Modern Reference Encyclopedia
the "writings" on the walls of the caves in south France (Lasceaux and others) easily out-time hoaryheads universe and are consistently dated with a number of different methods.

while I don't claim they are "religious texts" (why such evidence is not mentioned before on this thread) they certainly were done by humans and they certainly disprove a "Young Earth" scenario.


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand

RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
{{{Buddha walks off laughing with joy}}}


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hoaryhead 
Inactive Suspended Member


Message 25 of 56 (238924)
08-31-2005 9:39 AM
Reply to: Message 20 by Brian
08-31-2005 5:35 AM


A Bible Timeline
"Mathematics is the most exact science known to man."

This statement has been published by a host of intelligent men; whom I have read over the last 56 years.

Anyone comprehending mathematics knows that this statement is true.

Babylon destroyed Jerusalem, and carried Judah captive in "the 19th year of Nebuchanezzar" (2Ki 25.6-10).

This is dated 588 BC. The 19th year begins after the 18th year.'
606 BC - 18 Years = 588 BC.

The rest is grade school reading comprehension, and grade school math.

Moses wrote from 1635 BC (Ex.) to 1594 BC (Deut.)

BIBLE TIME-LINE
By Sid Williams

OLD TESTAMENT.
1. Create the Heavens and the Earth (Physical) -- not dated.
2. Adam and Eve in Garden of Eden -- not dated.
3. Adams first year: 4148 BC (Hebrew MSS); 5614 BC (Septuagint)
4. 1656 years to the Flood: 4148 - 2492 BC
5. Promise to Abram: 2065 BC
6. 430 Years (Gal 3.17, Gen 15.13, Ex 12.40-41); 2065-1635 BC
7. 41 Years in Wilderness: 1635-1594 BC
8. 34 years driving out 7 Nations of Canaan: 1594-1560 BC
9. 450 years of Judges: 1560-1110 BC
10. Samuel judged Israel 20 years: 1110-1090 BC
11. 502.5 yrs kings of Israel & Judah: 1090- 588 BC
12. 70 years Babylonian captivity: 588-518 BC
13. Second temple built: 515 BC
14. Ezra governor of Jerusalem: 480-455 BC
15. Nehemiah governor of Jerusalem: 455-443 BC

PERIODS OF PROPHECY IN OLD TESTAMENT.
1. 70 Weeks of Daniel: 455 BC - AD 35
2. 1260 Days of Daniel: 1258 BC - AD 2
3. 1290 Days of Daniel: 1258 BC - AD 32
4. 1335 Days of Daniel: 1258 BC - AD 77
5. 2300 Days of Daniel: 167 BC - AD 77
6. Seven Shepherds and 8 Lower Princes of Micah: 539 BC - AD 32
7. Parable of 7 Days of Creation: 4148 BC - AD 77

NEW TESTAMENT.
1. Jesus born of Mary, in Bethlehem: 4 BC
2. Jesus 12 years of age: AD 8
3. Jesus dipped in Jordan River; 15th year of Tiberius: AD 28
4. Messiah cut off (crucified) in midst of week: AD. 32
5. Jesus resurrected, and ascended to Third Heaven: AD 32
6. Day of Pentecost: May of AD
7. Jesus confirmed the covenant in One Week: AD 28-35
8. Cornelius, and Gentiles added to Called-out: AD 35
9. First book of New Testament written: AD 53
10. Paul arrested in Jerusalem: AD 60
11. Paul arrived in Rome: AD 63.
12. Paul under house arrest for 2 years: AD 63-65
13. Jesus Revelation written: AD 67
14. Tribulation 10 Days: AD 67-77
15. Jesus gone in A Little and returned in A Little [Jn 16.16]: AD 32-77

REVELATION.
1. Five Months [Rev 9.5]: AD 632-782
2. An Hour, a Day, a Month, a Year [Rev 9.15]: AD 680-1071
3. Forty-two Months [Rev 11.2]: AD 600-1860
4. Armageddon [Rev 16.16]: AD 1830-1923
5. Fall of Babylon in One Day [Rev 18.2, 8]: June 1859-May 1860
6. Fall of Babylon in One Hour [Rev 18.2, 10]: Sept. 20, 1870.
7. Millennium [Rev 20.1-7]: AD 1859-1959
8. Gap of time of unknown length. Possible starts: AD 1960 and AD 1963.
9. Satan loosed A Little [Rev 20.3]. Period of 45 Years John 16.16. This is The Last Battle. Possibly AD 1959-2004; or, AD 1959-2015 (Relates to Fall of Babylon in One Day and One Hour (11 years; AD 1859-1870).
10. Unrecorded period of Seal on Satan is intimated by the operation of God after all previous Victories of God in Battle. For instance, punish all nations were the 12 Tribes of Israel followed by New Jerusalem. Fall of Babylon followed by the Millennium. Possibly, we will have a second Millennium; or, Hundred Years; or, a shorter period with the seal on Satan.
9. Resurrection [Rev 20.11-15]: Not dated.

hoaryhead


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Replies to this message:
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Nighttrain
Member (Idle past 1584 days)
Posts: 1512
From: brisbane,australia
Joined: 06-08-2004


Message 26 of 56 (238929)
08-31-2005 10:02 AM
Reply to: Message 25 by hoaryhead
08-31-2005 9:39 AM


Re: A Bible Timeline
4. 1656 years to the Flood: 4148 - 2492 BC

`ere we go,`ere we go, `ere we go-----again. What Flood?


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Rahvin
Member (Idle past 777 days)
Posts: 3964
Joined: 07-01-2005


Message 27 of 56 (238951)
08-31-2005 11:29 AM
Reply to: Message 25 by hoaryhead
08-31-2005 9:39 AM


Re: A Bible Timeline
Hoaryhead, your entire post is irrelevant to this discussion. Mathematically deirving dates talked about in the Bible is not what we are discussing. We are discussing the age of the texts themselves. As in, the age of the paper they were written on. The date these ideas were first written down.

We are not talking about the ideas themselves. Just because one book talks about events 4000 years ago doesn't make the text or even the belief system 4000 years old.

Yes, the beliefs may have been held before they were put into written form - that's not an unusual occurance. But the only way we can get a real date out of a belief system is to measure the age of its oldest text, whether it's the Torah, the Rig Veda, or Aboriginal cave paintings.

Please stop repeating yourself. We all heard you the first time, but your "mathematically derived" dates are not relevant to this discussion.

Oh, and by the way - math is only as accurate in an instance like this as its root assumptions. If any of the dates you used from the Bible are incorrect or the events you used as a starting point never happened (ie, the Flood), then all the math in the world is irrelevant.


Every time a fundy breaks the laws of thermodynamics, Schroedinger probably kills his cat.
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Brian
Member (Idle past 2549 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 28 of 56 (238962)
08-31-2005 12:18 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by hoaryhead
08-31-2005 9:39 AM


Re: A Bible Timeline
You do know that this entire post is nothing but circular reasoning?

Perhaps you don't, so allow me to explain.

Every date you have given has been supported by nothing other than biblical references, you have given no external references at all. You are claiming, for example, that the enslavement of the Hebrews in Egypt was 430 years based on NOTHING but a Bible reference. This is not acceptable, you cannot support one part of the Bible by citing another part of the Bible (not in an historical context anyway).

Apart from that, your source demonstrates a very poor understanding of the text, and we don't even have to examine every date to show this. One example is evidence enough to show the inaccuracy of this timeline, I will even use your own dates to demonstrate this.

Now, by your sources reckoning, the Israelite monarchy began in 1090 BCE, and ended in 588 BCE.

There is a terminal flaw here. If the 1090 date is correct we can work from there to discover when King Solomon came to power. Solomon's reign is very important for dating the Exodus, and your source dates the Exodus to 1635 BCE.

So, the first King of Israel was Saul, who reigned for forty years.

Acts 13:21 21Then the people asked for a king, and he gave them Saul son of Kish, of the tribe of Benjamin, who ruled forty years.

This would mean that David came to power in 1050, he also reigned for forty years.

1 Kings 2:10-12

Then David rested with his fathers and was buried in the City of David. He had reigned forty years over Israelseven years in Hebron and thirty-three in Jerusalem. So Solomon sat on the throne of his father David, and his rule was firmly established.

This then informs us that Solomon must have came to the throne around 1010 BCE, since we have had two reigns of forty years, the most exact science known to man tells us that two times forty is eighty, and 1090 minus 80 is 1010.

Here is where the terminal problem can be found.

1 Kings 6:1

In the four hundred and eightieth year after the Israelites had come out of Egypt, in the fourth year of Solomon's reign over Israel, in the month of Ziv, the second month, he began to build the temple of the LORD.

This says that in the fourth year of his reign Solomon began to build the Temple. It also informs us that 480 years before the building of the Temple began, the Israelites came out of Egypt.

What does the most exact science tell us about the date of the Exodus according to this verse?

Well, 1010 minus the 4 years of Solomon's reign that had elapsed, gives us a date of 1006 for the beginning of the building of the Temple.

Now, add the 480 years of 1 Kings 6:1 on to 1006 and you get 1486 BCE for the Exodus.

Your source is inaccurate, and I am willing to bet that the book you took it from is quite an old book because this date of 1635 was abandonned about a century ago. Either that or your source hasn't done their (there's that word again) homework.

The reat of the post is drivel, and unsupported. if you wish to promote these dates at least include some external evidence.

If you wish to discuss any other dates let me know. For example, the 450 year period of the Judges is an incredible mess, as is the 34 years of the conquest, we can discuss why if you wish.

Finally, what I thought was amusing, I am absolutey terrible at maths, my mental arithmetic is extremely good though, and I have a problem with this date:

1. Jesus born of Mary, in Bethlehem: 4 BC
2. Jesus 12 years of age: AD 8

How can 5 plus 8 equal 12?

Didn't we have a year 0, did we go from 1 BCE to 1 CE?

Keep up the good work, you are highly entertaining.

Brian.


This message is a reply to:
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hoaryhead 
Inactive Suspended Member


Message 29 of 56 (238967)
08-31-2005 12:24 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by Nighttrain
08-31-2005 10:02 AM


Re: A Bible Timeline
Nighttrain, "What flood?"

The flood that caused the petrified forest in California.

hoaryhead


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Brian
Member (Idle past 2549 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 30 of 56 (238972)
08-31-2005 12:40 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by hoaryhead
08-31-2005 12:24 PM


Re: A Bible Timeline
California existed c.4500 yars ago?

I was under the impression that the United Staes was a relatively young country. I didn't realise that there was a place called California all those years ago, or is this another example of poor grammar, or is it an anachronism?

Brian.


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