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Author Topic:   If Genesis is Metaphorical, what's the metaphor?
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 3 of 168 (187364)
02-21-2005 10:17 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by jjburklo
02-21-2005 9:39 PM


I've often heard of people claiming that Genesis is not to be taken literal and that it is to be taken as allegorical, metaphorical, or whatever you want to call it. If this is indeed the case, what exactly is the metaphor?
Well, Genesis is not one story or even written by one author. It has several different stories and often several several versions of the same story. That means there is not one tale but rather an anthology.
So I guess the next question is which of the stories in Genesis wouold you like to discuss first?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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Replies to this message:
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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 6 of 168 (187406)
02-22-2005 12:51 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by jjburklo
02-22-2005 12:31 AM


Lets start with the creation account
Okay. There are two totally different accounts in Genesis. Is it okay if at least initially we just kinda lump the two together and try to address them as though they were one? Then, after we get that out of the way perhaps we can return and look at them seperately to see what different tales they are telling and what led to their creation.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 10 of 168 (187485)
02-22-2005 11:18 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by Sylas
02-22-2005 1:35 AM


The two creation stories
I don't believe you can find a single way to deal with the two Genesis stories as one when you look at the details. However, it's likely that many reading this thread have always approached Genesis as one single consistent tale without even considering that it is a compilation.
The issue of two mutually exclusive tales of Creation in Genesis will be new to them and somewhat disturbing. For that reason, I wonder if the two could be considered one in a very loose framework to examine the general question of Creation Stories in Society?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 14 of 168 (187521)
02-22-2005 2:28 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by Jor-el
02-22-2005 1:17 PM


Re: The two creation stories
The later Genesis Creation story is actually the earlier. It is from a time when the big question was trying to define what differenciates mankind from the other animals? It deals with man's place in relation to the animals, with the nature of good and evil and how come we screw up, with what happens when when we do screw up.
The later tale (actually the one that comes first in Genesis) is from an entirely different voice and deals with a whole different subject. The story in Genesis 1 is aimed more towards building the franchise. It's from a much later period and is more involved in distinguishing Judaism from other competing local religions.
Both use the metaphor of creation as a tool. Both borrow heavily from other traditions and cultures. Neither was ever meant to be a literal description of creation. That was simply the literary device used to deliver other messages.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 19 of 168 (187541)
02-22-2005 4:03 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by Jor-el
02-22-2005 3:31 PM


Re: If Genesis is Metaphorical, what's the metaphor?
Yes, there are some folk that ascribe Genesis to Moses but I don't think many would do so these days. There are simply too many indications that Genesis was written by many different people, from many different cultures, many different periods and many different voices. To attribute it to Moses also assumes that there was such a person in reality, which seems most unlikely.
The key point is that the Creations tales in Genesis have little to do with Creation except as a literary device. It is similar to other examples where war might be discussed as a way of portraying valor or surfing as a background for Gidget to break sexual stereotypes.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 26 of 168 (187579)
02-22-2005 7:11 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by Jor-el
02-22-2005 6:32 PM


Genesis was written by????????
Also please post a link as to where it says that there are too many indications that Genesis was written by many different people, from many different cultures, many different periods and many different voices. I suppose you can back that up.
Of course I can back it up. LOL
Let's start with Bishop Sims of the Atlanta Diocese of the Episcopal Church.
But even here the distinction between religion and science is clear. In Genesis there is not one creation statement but two. They agree as to why and who, but are quite different as to how and when. The statements are set forth in tandem, chapter one of Genesis using one description of method and chapter two another. According to the first, humanity was created, male and female, after the creation of plants and animals. According to the second, man was created first, then the trees, the animals and finally the woman and not from the earth as in the first account, but from the rib of the man. Textual research shows that these two accounts are from two distinct eras, the first later in history, the second earlier.
I highlighted parts of his text, which is from his Pastoral Letter relating to The Theory of Evolution and Creationism. The full text can be found here. Frankly, I don't know of any major Christian or Jewish scolars that believe Moses actually wrote any of the Pentateuch.
But this subject really needs to be addressed in one of the other Genesis threads.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 27 of 168 (187580)
02-22-2005 7:18 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by Jor-el
02-22-2005 6:53 PM


Well, so far after more searching than was ever spent on Troy, there has been nothing found that would even suggest that Moses ever lived. In fact, just like there are two creation stories, two flood stories, the tales of Moses contain all of the hallmarks of myth. Again, the story and myth of the Exodus are simply plot devices used to tell another story.
So let's all become evolutionists and end the debate. The forum can close down. We have all the answers we need.
What does Evolution have to do with either Genesis or Christianity?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 38 of 168 (187597)
02-22-2005 8:13 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by Jor-el
02-22-2005 7:43 PM


Taking into account that these are statements made by the Rev. Bennett J. Sims, retired Bishop of Atlanta, who, after just one little search on the web turned out to be a progressive liberal christian, who will not defend the bible and the God he serves.
Who advocates gay marriage, when it is expressly forbidden in the bible http://www.integrityva.org/hu_theology.htm. Who is also a political activist, doesn't say much for the reliability of this particular source.
Sorry, but that whole tactic is not only totally off topic, it's been covered in many other threads. I simply won't get into such discussions in this thread.
Do all you folk realize how hard it was for me to write that? LOL.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 42 of 168 (187602)
02-22-2005 8:36 PM
Reply to: Message 39 by Jor-el
02-22-2005 8:23 PM


Again, this is way off topic. This thread is about what the allegory, metaphor or message of Genesis is. There have been dozens of threads on the sources and origins of the various tales in Genesis here. Before starting yet another take the time to go back and research all that has already been posted here.
You might want to start with this one or this one or this one, or this one, or this one.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 49 of 168 (187722)
02-23-2005 8:59 AM
Reply to: Message 48 by arachnophilia
02-23-2005 2:40 AM


I think we also need to at the least be aware that there is an underlying humor in much of the Old Testament. I think that it was not unsurprising that so many of the Burlesque Parlors had names like Minski's. If you ever spend time in a Jewish Community, particularly if you've lived in one of the older classic Ethnic Neighborhoods, you will have seen the culture of the authors of Genesis in action. Yiddish is phenominal, there are always atleast two meanings to every word, one pretty straight forward but another just below the surface that is a commentary on life. Consider someones shtick, their patter or personality and how it quickly becomes Shtick Holtz or a person with No Personality.
Much of the Old Testament, particularly the Pentateuch is Burlesque.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 70 of 168 (188432)
02-25-2005 9:14 AM
Reply to: Message 69 by nator
02-25-2005 9:01 AM


While we're far afield from the topic...
SuperHorseWoman writes:
Let's also remember that all women after Eve are also punished by males having dominion over them.
If that were truly the case then Rodin's The Thinker would be thinking, "Remember to leave the seat UP! Remember to leave the seat UP!"

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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 Message 69 by nator, posted 02-25-2005 9:01 AM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 73 of 168 (188445)
02-25-2005 9:27 AM
Reply to: Message 72 by nator
02-25-2005 9:25 AM


Re: While we're far afield from the topic...
Only if he's a confirmed bachelor. Hell hath no fury like a wife who finds the seat up.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 83 of 168 (188712)
02-26-2005 12:50 PM
Reply to: Message 82 by Jor-el
02-26-2005 12:42 PM


Jerico and Ai
Are there any historical records that at this time indicate that the Israelites did not do as what is stated in the book of Joshua?
Many, many such records. In fact there is so much evidence that it is highly unlikely that ANY of the Joshua stories are correct.
Start here and then if you're up to it continue on through the many Dating the Exodus threads.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 90 of 168 (189249)
02-28-2005 4:07 PM
Reply to: Message 89 by Jor-el
02-28-2005 2:15 PM


Re: Historical perspective
I remember having watched a documentary on the "History Channel" that has an interesting parallel to the perspective that societies give to history depending on who is in power.
It is commonly thought that Japan started the 2nd front of WW2 by bombarding / attacking Pearl Harbour. This is taught as general history in the USA as well as in most countries around the world.
But is it a fact?
What is generally not known, is that Japan was forced into this military action by the economic and political policies of the USA at the time.
Japan was undergoing great economic growth and depended on the USA at the time for most of its petroleum imports. These imports were at 1st reduced and after a time suspended leaving Japan in a very uncomfortable position. After begging and pleading fell on deaf ears, Japan was left with no option but to take the action it did.
Now I ask you, did you learn this tidbit in history class?
Sure. It was covered in my history classes as far back as during the 1950s. But even that is not the whole story. In addition to oil the US embargo included iron, steel, coal, corn products and rubber.
But did your history classes also explain WHY the US embargoed Japan?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 93 of 168 (189292)
02-28-2005 6:02 PM
Reply to: Message 92 by arachnophilia
02-28-2005 5:55 PM


Re: Uh?
Was Le Morte D'Arthur history?
Edited to add a link to the book
This message has been edited by jar, 02-28-2005 17:06 AM

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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