Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
4 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,817 Year: 3,074/9,624 Month: 919/1,588 Week: 102/223 Day: 13/17 Hour: 0/1


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   The Bible was NOT man made, it was Godly made
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 241 of 320 (426363)
10-06-2007 9:04 AM
Reply to: Message 240 by Kapyong
10-06-2007 7:38 AM


spurious is a poor choice of wording.
Any modern NT commentary should agree - the Pastorals have long been considered spurious.
I would not say spurious.
They exist.
They are most likely attributions as you point out but that was also a relatively common and accepted practice until pretty recently.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 240 by Kapyong, posted 10-06-2007 7:38 AM Kapyong has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 244 by Equinox, posted 10-08-2007 12:57 PM jar has replied

Tryannasapien Rex
Junior Member (Idle past 4598 days)
Posts: 21
Joined: 02-15-2006


Message 242 of 320 (426451)
10-06-2007 7:49 PM
Reply to: Message 222 by gen
10-04-2007 3:48 AM


Re: Why do you not believe this?
Why would your god command the Israelites to kill innocent little boys and take innocent little girls as sex slaves?
quote:
Numbers 31
Now therefore, kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman who has known man by lying with him. But all the young girls who have not known man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves
Takeing little girls as sex slaves is wrong and a sin.
Haveing sex with a slave is haveing sex outside of wedlock that makes it a sin.
Killing these little boys is murder because it was premeditated
because he told them to kill the little boys and take the little girls as sex slaves.
Don't you see that your god commanded the Israelites to break the commandments that he them gave to keep.
This is why you god cant be real because no perfect god would do this.
Your beliefs are evil because of the many passages like this in your bible.
This time god commands them to sin,
1 Should they obey god and break his law?
or
2 Rebel against god and keep his law?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 222 by gen, posted 10-04-2007 3:48 AM gen has not replied

iceage 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5915 days)
Posts: 1024
From: Pacific Northwest
Joined: 09-08-2003


Message 243 of 320 (426593)
10-07-2007 9:16 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Minnemooseus
04-15-2007 11:46 PM


Godly Interaction
Moose writes:
Might I suggest, that man has had a hand in the manufacturing of the physical book? Also, down through time, that man has had a hand in translating and editing the content of the Bible
The finger prints of humans are all over the content of the Bible. That assertion is not hard to prove. I think a good number of Church going Christians believe that the Bible was gifted by God in black leather binding and red letter highlighting.
The Question I have is that according to the Bible, God interacted significantly on many occasions in human affairs - most of those however usually involved some form of mass slaughter. Now If this being supposedly would stop the sun and stay the moon to ensure complete genocide, why wouldn't this being not be a bit more proactive in the preservation of the original inspired writings?
For example, why not a miraculously delivery of some sturdy writing materials or why not prevention of the normal decay found with other ancient writings or some strict miraculous content purity enforcement?
  • Why do we not have the original 10 commandments written by the finger of God? You would think that would have been preserved by both man and God.
  • Why do we not have the original Gospels or even autographed copies? The Gospels didn't even have authors assigned to them until much later. Many parts appear to be added later including my most favorite part in Matthew about Jesus and the stoning of the women.
  • Why do we not have some forceful hard-to-dispute identification of what are the list of inspired works. For example, carved into a rock by the finger of God or miraculous preservation or found in the constellations of the heavens, etc.

  • This message is a reply to:
     Message 1 by Minnemooseus, posted 04-15-2007 11:46 PM Minnemooseus has not replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 246 by Zigler, posted 10-08-2007 2:14 PM iceage has not replied

    Equinox
    Member (Idle past 5142 days)
    Posts: 329
    From: Michigan
    Joined: 08-18-2006


    Message 244 of 320 (426681)
    10-08-2007 12:57 PM
    Reply to: Message 241 by jar
    10-06-2007 9:04 AM


    Re: spurious is a poor choice of wording.
    Jar wrote:
    They are most likely attributions as you point out but that was also a relatively common and accepted practice until pretty recently.
    Now Jar, you and I have discussed that, and they could well be malicious forgeries, or perhaps not (I've copied some of our discussion below). Intentional forgery happened back then, and it people didn't like getting fooled. Please don't candy-coat the fact that there are pseudepigrapha in the Bibles - it could well be intentioal forgery, and Iaision is right that these are clearly not written by Paul (and the author nonetheless claims to be Paul).
    People did write in their teacher’s name to express honor. This happened in greek philosophic schools too. However, back then people did often write to deceived and gain authority too, and even back then this practice was considered dishonest and frowned upon. We have solid examples of this from the 2nd century, when the Pastorals were written too. For instance, the author of 3rd Corinthians was caught while writing it, and accused of dishonest-type forgery. Galen found a forged book in his name, and was offended enough by it write a whole book about how to detect and reject books forged in his name.
    So both occurred. I don’t know which motivation was behind the pastorals and the other Pauline works that aren’t by him (3rd cor, Laod, GoPaul, etc). All of them may be good and pure, or all forgeries, but of course it’s most likely that some are each type, and some are somewhere in between, such as the case where a Christian is unhappy because many of the other Christians in his congregation are moving the congregation in a direction he doesn’t like, so he happens to “find” a letter from “paul” that happens to support his side. From his view his motives were pure - to help everyone find salvation by saving them from heresy. From someone else’s view, he forged that. The situation above could be the origin of the Gospel of Paul, or of Titus, or neither. Or they could have written Paul’s name and the book as a fictional piece, like “call me Ishmael”, as written by Melville - not intended to deceive, but not in praise of Paul either. After circulating for a while, the most recent owner might not know this, and take the letter at it’s word as a letter by Paul.
    Without a time machine, a magic person-finder, and a mind reader, it’s hard to know which of all of these is what happened. So perhaps calling it a forgery is a bit harsh. It could well be true but again it may not. However, anyone who calls the other Christian pseudepigrapha (such as the Gospel of Philip, Paul’s letter to the laodiceans, etc, etc) forgeries, yet calls the pastorals, or 2nd Pet, etc, “pseudepigrapha” is using a double standard. Either way is fine with me, as long as we are consistent.
    Have a fun day-
    Equinox

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 241 by jar, posted 10-06-2007 9:04 AM jar has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 245 by jar, posted 10-08-2007 1:03 PM Equinox has replied

    jar
    Member (Idle past 394 days)
    Posts: 34026
    From: Texas!!
    Joined: 04-20-2004


    Message 245 of 320 (426686)
    10-08-2007 1:03 PM
    Reply to: Message 244 by Equinox
    10-08-2007 12:57 PM


    Re: spurious is a poor choice of wording.
    Right, both happened. So the response is not "They are Forgeries" or "Spurious" but rather they are unknown source.

    Aslan is not a Tame Lion

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 244 by Equinox, posted 10-08-2007 12:57 PM Equinox has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 248 by Equinox, posted 10-09-2007 3:33 PM jar has replied
     Message 251 by ILoveGod, posted 10-13-2007 5:34 AM jar has replied

    Zigler
    Junior Member (Idle past 6012 days)
    Posts: 6
    From: Pasadena, CA
    Joined: 10-06-2007


    Message 246 of 320 (426705)
    10-08-2007 2:14 PM
    Reply to: Message 243 by iceage
    10-07-2007 9:16 PM


    Re: Godly Interaction
    Why do we not have the original 10 commandments written by the finger of God? You would think that would have been preserved by both man and God.
    Yeah, you’d think. After all, the Ten Commandments are so great that the creator of the universe felt the need to physically write them himself, and in stone. Hi, I’m new here and have been fascinated by this forum, its topics, and threads over the last few days. It’s refreshing to see some intelligent debate over these issues and I’d like to thank everyone here for the the brian stimulation!
    why wouldn't this being not be a bit more proactive in the preservation of the original inspired writings?
    Great question, iceage. With the Ten Commandments, for example, not only does the creator of the universe lack a proactive role in the preservation of the original writings, but his message is astonishingly primitive. I mean you’d expect these to be the greatest lines ever written. Instead you are inundated with lines like “You shall have no other gods before me” and “You shall not make for yourself a graven image.” Oddly enough, the first four (and one would think the most important) Commandments laid down by the creator of the universe doesn’t even address morality. Instead, he prohibits the practice of any non Judeo-Christian faith. Hmm, do I sense a little insecurity here? To me, these first four Commandments sound more like a primitive attempt at preventing people from questioning its authority. The Tenth Commandment, “You shall not covet your neighbor’s house; you shall not covet your neighbor’s wife, or male or female slave, or ox, or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor,” leaves me really scratching my head. I mean, the creator of the universe could think of no human matters more critical than the coveting of servants and livestock? I don’t know, perhaps God at some point decided these Commandments could be improved upon and weren’t really worth preserving....?

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 243 by iceage, posted 10-07-2007 9:16 PM iceage has not replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 247 by Damouse, posted 10-08-2007 2:29 PM Zigler has not replied

    Damouse
    Member (Idle past 4905 days)
    Posts: 215
    From: Brookfield, Wisconsin
    Joined: 12-18-2005


    Message 247 of 320 (426707)
    10-08-2007 2:29 PM
    Reply to: Message 246 by Zigler
    10-08-2007 2:14 PM


    Re: Godly Interaction
    Welcome Zigler!
    I tend to agree that the order of the commandments seems a little... misguided?
    Why do we not have the original 10 commandments written by the finger of God? You would think that would have been preserved by both man and God.
    Why do we not have the original Gospels or even autographed copies? The Gospels didn't even have authors assigned to them until much later. Many parts appear to be added later including my most favorite part in Matthew about Jesus and the stoning of the women.
    Why do we not have some forceful hard-to-dispute identification of what are the list of inspired works. For example, carved into a rock by the finger of God or miraculous preservation or found in the constellations of the heavens, etc.
    Maybe god is trying to fool us and mislead us?
    Or, god forbid, men wrote the supposedly divine works of Christianity?

    This statement is false.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 246 by Zigler, posted 10-08-2007 2:14 PM Zigler has not replied

    Equinox
    Member (Idle past 5142 days)
    Posts: 329
    From: Michigan
    Joined: 08-18-2006


    Message 248 of 320 (427061)
    10-09-2007 3:33 PM
    Reply to: Message 245 by jar
    10-08-2007 1:03 PM


    Re: spurious is a poor choice of wording.
    Hi Jar-
    you wrote:
    Right, both happened. So the response is not "They are Forgeries" or "Spurious" but rather they are unknown source.
    We should probably say more than that, since that sounds a little like we don’t have any information, when in fact we do (we’re pretty sure it’s not Paul, who it claims to be by).
    I most often use the term “pseudepigrapha”, and usually allow “forgery” - since that seems descriptive to me (but not to you). My main point was that whatever term is used should be used for both canonical and non-canonical works. So pseudepigrapha seems to be the term that works best for everyone.
    Have a fun day-
    -Equinox

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 245 by jar, posted 10-08-2007 1:03 PM jar has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 249 by jar, posted 10-09-2007 3:41 PM Equinox has not replied

    jar
    Member (Idle past 394 days)
    Posts: 34026
    From: Texas!!
    Joined: 04-20-2004


    Message 249 of 320 (427062)
    10-09-2007 3:41 PM
    Reply to: Message 248 by Equinox
    10-09-2007 3:33 PM


    Re: spurious is a poor choice of wording.
    My main point was that whatever term is used should be used for both canonical and non-canonical works. So pseudepigrapha seems to be the term that works best for everyone.
    I have no problem with that.

    Aslan is not a Tame Lion

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 248 by Equinox, posted 10-09-2007 3:33 PM Equinox has not replied

    ILoveGod
    Member (Idle past 6005 days)
    Posts: 29
    Joined: 10-13-2007


    Message 250 of 320 (427841)
    10-13-2007 4:46 AM
    Reply to: Message 1 by Minnemooseus
    04-15-2007 11:46 PM


    Proof is easy
    Hey well to get a few things straight first... there have not always been "books", in fact there was scripture way before the "codex" and you can find it on papyrus, cuniform tablets, and many other forms. And the accuracy of the Bible is amazing, there were scrolls containing old testament books knows as the dead sea scrolls which are scientifically dated centuries before Jesus's birth, which are exactly the same as the old testament we translate the Bible from today except for like 7 words and 14 letters, which mean the same thing as what we have for them. That is not the case however with man made books. Take shakespeare's hamlet for example, which is known 100% factually to have been changed so much it is a far cry from the original story. The New Testament however has records from many Christian, non-Christian, and anti-Christian sources that back up what it says. Including the emporer nero, a man named Tachitus, and several other emperor's kings, and famous peoples.
    Edited by ILoveGod, : type-o's
    Edited by ILoveGod, : No reason given.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 1 by Minnemooseus, posted 04-15-2007 11:46 PM Minnemooseus has not replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 252 by iceage, posted 10-13-2007 5:48 AM ILoveGod has replied

    ILoveGod
    Member (Idle past 6005 days)
    Posts: 29
    Joined: 10-13-2007


    Message 251 of 320 (427847)
    10-13-2007 5:34 AM
    Reply to: Message 245 by jar
    10-08-2007 1:03 PM


    Re: spurious is a poor choice of wording.
    ok first off, the 10 commandments... the first 4 are between us and God, and the next 6 are between us and each other.
    and Interestingly enough, the idea of civilization being the same today as it was back when God gave the 10 commandments with the old covenant to the Hebrews. is ridiculous.
    We are living in a world that has had a complete turn around since the birth of Jesus Christ (see the next paragraph). Have you ever asked yourself... What if Jesus had never been born?
    An EXTREMELY good movie/documentary actually entitled "what if Jesus had never been born?" can be watched for free online by clicking on any of these links (But you will need to have RealPlayer (it's free) Enjoy RealPlayer from RealNetworks everywhere installed to watch them)
    DIAL-UP Coral Ridge Presbyterian Church | Gospel-Centered. Culture Shaping.
    ISDN We're sorry, but something went wrong (500)
    DSL Coral Ridge Presbyterian Church | Gospel-Centered. Culture Shaping.
    or by going to the actual web page
    http://www.coralridge.org/whatif/pressroom.asp?id=clips&on=5
    Sure you can bring up some of the things some false Christians did, but they were not really Christians... they just were outwardly, which means they were just pretending to be. And false Christians involved in the crusades again were just pretending to be Christians, that is, they pretended to turn the other cheek, and pretended to pray for those who persecute them, and pretended to love each other as Jesus loved us. Or else they wouldn't have murdered all of those people. Christian means to be a follower of Christ, not one who only pretends to be.
    Jesus said He would have to go so that the comforter may come... before Jesus Christ came the Holy Spirit was given out in small measures, but now that Jesus sent the Holy Spirit to us, we can be born of the Spirit and have a Godly nature instead of the fleshly nature. And without having the Holy Spirit in you, you will have an extremely difficult time obeying the 10 commandments, t would be the old nature (Human nature) trying to do Good and be perfect which the old nature is actually against.
    with love,
    Cliff Harris
    Edited by ILoveGod, : No reason given.
    Edited by ILoveGod, : No reason given.
    Edited by ILoveGod, : No reason given.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 245 by jar, posted 10-08-2007 1:03 PM jar has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 253 by jar, posted 10-13-2007 10:08 AM ILoveGod has replied
     Message 255 by sidelined, posted 10-13-2007 11:32 PM ILoveGod has replied

    iceage 
    Suspended Member (Idle past 5915 days)
    Posts: 1024
    From: Pacific Northwest
    Joined: 09-08-2003


    Message 252 of 320 (427848)
    10-13-2007 5:48 AM
    Reply to: Message 250 by ILoveGod
    10-13-2007 4:46 AM


    Re: Proof is easy
    ilovegod writes:
    Bible is amazing, there were scrolls containing old testament books knows as the dead sea scrolls which are scientifically dated centures before Jesus's birth, which are exactly the same as the old testament we translate the Bible from today except for like 7 words and 14 letters, which mean the same thing as what we have for them
    Reference please....
    You will need to show your work here.
    http://www.ancient-hebrew.org/31_masorite.html
    reference link writes:
    In just the first 3 verses of chapter 53, a total of 23 words in the Masoretic text and 24 words in the Great Isaiah scroll, I found 19 letters that were different between the two texts
    Further being preserved with high fidelity from century to century does not demonstrate that the Bible is Godly made.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 250 by ILoveGod, posted 10-13-2007 4:46 AM ILoveGod has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 254 by ILoveGod, posted 10-13-2007 11:08 PM iceage has replied
     Message 258 by ILoveGod, posted 10-14-2007 1:05 AM iceage has not replied

    jar
    Member (Idle past 394 days)
    Posts: 34026
    From: Texas!!
    Joined: 04-20-2004


    Message 253 of 320 (427878)
    10-13-2007 10:08 AM
    Reply to: Message 251 by ILoveGod
    10-13-2007 5:34 AM


    Re: spurious is a poor choice of wording.
    Well, nothing in your post has anything to do with the fact that the Bible is man made.
    Sure you can bring up some of the things some false Christians did, but they were not really Christians... they just were outwardly, which means they were just pretending to be. And false Christians involved in the crusades again were just pretending to be Christians, that is, they pretended to turn the other cheek, and pretended to pray for those who persecute them, and pretended to love each other as Jesus loved us. Or else they wouldn't have murdered all of those people. Christian means to be a follower of Christ, not one who only pretends to be.
    Coral Ridge's message, like so much of the Christian Cult of Ignorance, is simply a way to avoid being honest about Christianity. Saying that others are not real Christians is a nice easy copout excuse and very convenient.

    Aslan is not a Tame Lion

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 251 by ILoveGod, posted 10-13-2007 5:34 AM ILoveGod has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 256 by ILoveGod, posted 10-13-2007 11:47 PM jar has replied
     Message 257 by ILoveGod, posted 10-14-2007 12:00 AM jar has not replied

    ILoveGod
    Member (Idle past 6005 days)
    Posts: 29
    Joined: 10-13-2007


    Message 254 of 320 (427977)
    10-13-2007 11:08 PM
    Reply to: Message 252 by iceage
    10-13-2007 5:48 AM


    Re: Proof is easy
    you are misinformed. If you want to play the "research from any uncredited website" we can also assume elvis presly never was killed, britney spears is part of a conspiracy to overthrow the world, and crop circles are the result of evolved aliens.
    But then I'd hope we can come back to reality, further our discussion

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 252 by iceage, posted 10-13-2007 5:48 AM iceage has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 265 by iceage, posted 10-14-2007 2:41 PM ILoveGod has not replied
     Message 266 by iceage, posted 10-14-2007 2:47 PM ILoveGod has not replied

    sidelined
    Member (Idle past 5908 days)
    Posts: 3435
    From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
    Joined: 08-30-2003


    Message 255 of 320 (427979)
    10-13-2007 11:32 PM
    Reply to: Message 251 by ILoveGod
    10-13-2007 5:34 AM


    Re: spurious is a poor choice of wording.
    ILoveGod
    ok first off, the 10 commandments... the first 4 are between us and God, and the next 6 are between us and each other.
    Which ten commandments would those be?
    First Version: Exodus 20:2-17
    (I) I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery; you shall have no other gods before me.
    (II) You shall not make for yourself an idol, whether in the form of anything that is in heaven above, or that is on the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I the LORD your God am a jealous God, punishing children for the iniquity of parents, to the third and the fourth generation of those who reject me, but showing steadfast love to the thousandth generation of those who love me and keep my commandments.
    (III) You shall not make wrongful use of the name of the LORD your God, for the LORD will not acquit anyone who misuses his name.
    (IV) Remember the sabbath day, and keep it holy. Six days you shall labor and do all your work. But the seventh day is a sabbath to the LORD your God; you shall not do any work-you, your son or your daughter, your male or female slave, your livestock, or the alien resident in your towns. For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but rested the seventh day; therefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day and consecrated it.
    (V) Honor your father and your mother, so that your days may be long in the land that the LORD your God is giving you.
    (VI) You shall not murder.
    (VII) You shall not commit adultery.
    (VIII) You shall not steal.
    (IX) You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.
    (X) You shall not covet your neighbor's house; you shall not covet your neighbor's wife, or male or female slave, or ox, or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor.
    OR
    Second Version: Exodus 34:12-26
    (I) Take care not to make a covenant with the inhabitants of the land to which you are going, or it will become a snare among you. You shall tear down their altars, break their pillars, and cut down their sacred poles (for you shall worship no other god, because the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God). You shall not make a covenant with the inhabitants of the land, for when they prostitute themselves to their gods and sacrifice to their gods, someone among them will invite you, and you will eat of the sacrifice. And you will take wives from among their daughters for your sons, and their daughters who prostitute themselves to their gods will make your sons also prostitute themselves to their gods.
    (II) You shall not make cast idols.
    (III) You shall keep the festival of unleavened bread. Seven days you shall eat unleavened bread, as I commanded you, at the time appointed in the month of Abib; for in the month of Abib you came out from Egypt.
    (IV) All that first opens the womb is mine, all your male livestock, the firstborn of cow and sheep. The firstborn of a donkey you shall redeem with a lamb, or if you will not redeem it you shall break its neck. All the firstborn of your sons you shall redeem. No one shall appear before me empty-handed.
    (V) Six days you shall work, but on the seventh day you shall rest; even in plowing time and in harvest time you shall rest.
    (VI) You shall observe the festival of weeks, the first fruits of wheat harvest, and the festival of ingathering at the turn of the year. Three times in the year all your males shall appear before the LORD God, the God of Israel. For I will cast out nations before you, and enlarge your borders; no one shall covet your land when you go up to appear before the LORD your God three times in the year.
    (VII) You shall not offer the blood of my sacrifice with leaven, and
    (VIII) the sacrifice of the festival of the passover shall not be left until the morning.
    (IX) The best of the first fruits of your ground you shall bring to the house of the LORD your God.
    (X) You shall not boil a kid in its mother's milk.
    (VI) Neither shall you commit adultery.
    (VII) Neither shall you steal.
    (VIII) Neither shall you bear false witness against your neighbor.
    (IX) Neither shall you covet your neighbor's wife.
    (X) Neither shall you desire your neighbor's house, or field, or male or female slave, or ox, or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor.
    Let us know which of these sets of ten commandments should be followed and which one we should tell God to stuff up his backside would you?

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 251 by ILoveGod, posted 10-13-2007 5:34 AM ILoveGod has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 259 by ILoveGod, posted 10-14-2007 1:52 AM sidelined has replied
     Message 269 by ILoveGod, posted 10-18-2007 8:52 PM sidelined has not replied

    Newer Topic | Older Topic
    Jump to:


    Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

    ™ Version 4.2
    Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024