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Author Topic:   The Time Problem With A Mythical Jesus
Jasonb
Inactive Member


Message 16 of 76 (137892)
08-29-2004 5:04 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by PaulK
08-29-2004 5:31 AM


Hello PaulK.
Firstly transport is a lot worse. People did travel long distances but it was slower than car, aeroplane or even modern ships. Doing the checks would be more effort than most people would be prepared to (or could afford to) do.
But they wouldn’t have to check the facts for themselves. Any one of the many religions in opposition to Christianity could have simply checked the facts out and presented the masses with the counter proof. Many of these converts suffered death rather than deny Christ. It would have been so simple for the Jewish religious leaders to disproof these claims, or at least presented doubt in the converts mind. They were outrageous claims, which usually are not immediately taken at face value, especially when there are groups teaching something else.
Secondly people in general did not live so long. There would be fewer old people who could remember events.
Jesus supposable taught to thousands. Certainly there were survivors after only 70 years. And 70 years is a liberal dating. Conservative biblical scholars place the epistles of Paul to around 40 or 50 AD.
Thirdly records were not so well kept. You couldn't expect to find a birth certificate. The best you could hope to find is a record of the execution order.
All it would take is one piece of evidence that Jesus never existed or that he was simply a man and that would be the end of the Christian movement. Certainly Jews and others wanted to put an end to it. But yet Christianity survived and flourished. The spread of Christianity did not take place in a vacuum. These were real cities with real people and real forces opposing it. Yet it survived.
Finally - and most importantly - the region had gone through a major rebellion ending in 70 AD. Jerusalem itself underwent a long seige until the Romans stormed it. In terms of both paper records and human memory the effects of the revolt would make it much hardr to find any evidence.
But not impossible. And people would have tried. Especially since following Jesus would have meant giving up there own religion, possibly even there families, or in the case of the Jewish leaders giving up converts and admitting they had killed the Messiah.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by PaulK, posted 08-29-2004 5:31 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by lfen, posted 08-29-2004 5:36 PM Jasonb has replied
 Message 29 by PaulK, posted 08-29-2004 6:36 PM Jasonb has replied

  
Jasonb
Inactive Member


Message 17 of 76 (137893)
08-29-2004 5:07 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by Chiroptera
08-29-2004 11:47 AM


Hello Chiroptera.
The first popular UFO reports started shortly after the second world war. By the time I was a kid, in the 1970's, UFO's were a big industry -- it seemed "everyone" believed in it, and there was a huge industry pumping out supposedly non-fiction magazines, as well as fictional TV shows and movies. This occurred in about 30 years.
Can you please state which UFO story you are referring to so we can sufficiently compare it to the mythical Jesus claim.
Thanks.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by Chiroptera, posted 08-29-2004 11:47 AM Chiroptera has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by jar, posted 08-29-2004 5:11 PM Jasonb has replied
 Message 27 by Chiroptera, posted 08-29-2004 5:56 PM Jasonb has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 18 of 76 (137895)
08-29-2004 5:11 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by Jasonb
08-29-2004 5:07 PM


Can you please state which UFO story you are referring to so we can sufficiently compare it to the mythical Jesus claim.
You keep refering to the mythical Jesus claim as though there were something unique about the Jesus stories. I'm not sure that I understand what it is you are saying. Can you outline for us what you find unique or unusual about the Jesus stories?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by Jasonb, posted 08-29-2004 5:07 PM Jasonb has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by Jasonb, posted 08-29-2004 5:28 PM jar has replied

  
lfen
Member (Idle past 4677 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 19 of 76 (137896)
08-29-2004 5:11 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by Jasonb
08-29-2004 4:46 PM


the crux of this thread is that 70 years is not enough time for a Jesus myth to start.
Well this is a very nebulous claim. How many years would be neccessary? And how would you falsify your claim? What evidence would show it's false and that 70 years would be enough? And if not 70 would 150?
I find the notion that the Gospels must be true because 70 years wasn't enough to be very hard to establish. First you have to establish a historic person. That seems likely but there is life in the mythicist argument.
There are a lot of differences between Jesus and Elvis, and between the era's. In a modern era with television, news, and science there are still people willing to believe that Elvis lives, or as someone else pointed out that aliens are among us. How much more likely such beliefs would take off in the first century was my point.
I think it's very likely had there been a historic teacher crucified that within weeks if not days rumors would have developed and if not a myth a proto myth would have been underway within the year.
lfen

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by Jasonb, posted 08-29-2004 4:46 PM Jasonb has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by Jasonb, posted 08-29-2004 5:40 PM lfen has replied

  
Jasonb
Inactive Member


Message 20 of 76 (137897)
08-29-2004 5:21 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by Kapyong
08-29-2004 1:22 PM


Re: Gospels are late legends
Hey Iasion.
You make many interesting claims about the dating of p52 and the other books of the New Testament. If you would like, please start a new thread and we can discuss this. But for this thread let focus on the time question, is 70 years enough time for a legend like the Mythical Jesus to evolve.
But even I cant resist staying off topic for a moment.
But the epistles which are CLOSEST in time (e.g. Paul) to the alleged Jesus show the LEAST amount of information (no mention of the miracles, the empty tomb, the trial etc.)
1 Corinthians 15:3-6
quote:
For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures, and that he appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve. Then he appeared to more than five hundred brothers at one time, most of whom are still alive, though some have fallen asleep.
Please tell me how this does not tell of the empty tomb, He was buried .. He was raised. Clearly speaks of an empty tomb.
But if there was NO historical Jesus, then this period is irrelevant. Paul preached a spiritual Christ in the 1st century, the various Gnostics taught a spiritual Christ in the 2nd century. The historical Jesus was a LATER invention, unknown to Christian writers until 2nd century.
Is 70 years enough time for this to happened?
If the original Jesus was a mythical being, then the story could have been developing for centuries - which is exactly what we DO see - the various elements of the Jesus story can be clearly seen in the prior Jewish scriptures and pagan writers.
But you have a problem. The p52 fragment. The story had developed in only 70 years. (Granting that p52 dates to 125 AD and was written sometime before that, I choose 100 AD arbitrarily, I could choose a later date, but I could also choose a younger date)
The rest of your argument assumes a late dating of the New Testament which I do not wish to debate in this thread.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by Kapyong, posted 08-29-2004 1:22 PM Kapyong has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by Kapyong, posted 08-29-2004 10:30 PM Jasonb has replied

  
Jasonb
Inactive Member


Message 21 of 76 (137900)
08-29-2004 5:25 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by Chiroptera
08-29-2004 4:59 PM


Why not? Because the Jesus story is miraculous, where as the Elvis myth is not?
Are you honestly saying that the claims that Elvis faked his death is the same as the claims about Jesus. I don’t know how to respond to that.
I will say that the conspiracy about Elvis’ death is fading over time, not dispersing as did the story of Jesus.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by Chiroptera, posted 08-29-2004 4:59 PM Chiroptera has not replied

  
Jasonb
Inactive Member


Message 22 of 76 (137902)
08-29-2004 5:28 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by jar
08-29-2004 5:11 PM


Hey Jar.
You keep refering to the mythical Jesus claim as though there were something unique about the Jesus stories. I'm not sure that I understand what it is you are saying. Can you outline for us what you find unique or unusual about the Jesus stories?
It is not really my argument that the Jesus Myth is unique. Perhaps you can start a thread on that. I would like to stay on the topic of weather or not 70 years is enough time for the mythical Jesus story to evolve.
Thanks.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by jar, posted 08-29-2004 5:11 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by jar, posted 08-29-2004 5:32 PM Jasonb has not replied
 Message 32 by portmaster1000, posted 08-29-2004 11:47 PM Jasonb has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 23 of 76 (137904)
08-29-2004 5:32 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by Jasonb
08-29-2004 5:28 PM


But all of the elements of the Jesus Myth were already present and had been around for thousands of years. So it might not have been something new but simply taking existing myths and transfering them to some other context.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by Jasonb, posted 08-29-2004 5:28 PM Jasonb has not replied

  
lfen
Member (Idle past 4677 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 24 of 76 (137907)
08-29-2004 5:36 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by Jasonb
08-29-2004 5:04 PM


Conservative biblical scholars place the epistles of Paul to around 40 or 50 AD.
Paul claimed that his knowledge of Christ came through visions.
They were outrageous claims, which usually are not immediately taken at face value, especially when there are groups teaching something else.
Which claims do you consider outrageous in terms of those times? Resurrections were quite accepted and this is true until as late as Victorian times. Problems with distinguishing death from comas led to people being buried alive and there was great fear of that. I reference here the book, THE ROMEO ERROR. The mystery religions had similar claims also. And Roman emperorers in some cases claimed divinity and descent from Gods. Some of the claims of early christians might have been unacceptable to jews, but there were other divisions in Judaism at that time also, what with Sadducees, Pharisees, and other sects. Seems like there were lots of different things being claimed and argued.
But yet Christianity survived and flourished. The spread of Christianity did not take place in a vacuum. These were real cities with real people and real forces opposing it. Yet it survived.
Lots of sects survived at least until Constantine adopted Christianity and the christians began to stamp out other religions. Rome basically asked Jews and Christians to observe the generally tolerant attitudes of the empire. There refusal to make even the token gestures of the imperial religon brought down a lot of their punishment. I'm not saying pagan Rome was particularly good, but compared to what the christians did when they took power they were an ancient near eastern model of religious tolerance. One would have to look to Ashoka and Buddhist India to find a genuine reliously tolerant society in those times.
lfen

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by Jasonb, posted 08-29-2004 5:04 PM Jasonb has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by Jasonb, posted 08-30-2004 9:51 AM lfen has replied

  
Jasonb
Inactive Member


Message 25 of 76 (137908)
08-29-2004 5:40 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by lfen
08-29-2004 5:11 PM


Well this is a very nebulous claim. How many years would be neccessary? And how would you falsify your claim? What evidence would show it's false and that 70 years would be enough? And if not 70 would 150?
I don’t think 150 years is enough. Lets say I wanted to write a book about Fred Milken who died about 140 years ago. What lies could I get away with? What claims could I make that could with stand honest scrutiny? (By the way I made Fred up.)
I think it's very likely had there been a historic teacher crucified that within weeks if not days rumors would have developed and if not a myth a proto myth would have been underway within the year.
But you have to look at the claims that the writers of the New Testament made. These were verifiable claims. He was born in Bethlehem. He preached sermons to thousands. He healed people, gave sight to the blind. He was crucified. He was buried. That he was raised from the dead and seen by hundreds of other people.
Even if some people didn’t want to know the truth, others would want them to, namely the Jewish leaders. And they could have proven these claims false if it had only been 70 years.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by lfen, posted 08-29-2004 5:11 PM lfen has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by lfen, posted 08-29-2004 6:05 PM Jasonb has not replied
 Message 30 by PaulK, posted 08-29-2004 6:51 PM Jasonb has replied

  
lfen
Member (Idle past 4677 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 26 of 76 (137910)
08-29-2004 5:53 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by Jasonb
08-29-2004 4:46 PM


Understand that I don't accept your datings but I will allow that 70 years is more than enough time for the myth to have taken on several forms including the New Testament version.
Relgions can start very fast. Yes, Elvis is fading but he wasn't a relgion either. But what of Mormonism and Bahai? There have been references in other threads here to near contemporary individuals being claimed as the messiah.
I think Constantine saved Christianity by giving it the backing of the Roman Empire.
The idea that the myth couldn't have been developed in 70 years, heck, in 5 years so it must be true is a specious argument along the same lines as those who claim that a person couldn't have written the Torah, or the Koran so that shows that God did. Well, people wrote all those books and religions can have fast starts as the Mormons and Bahais demonstrate.
We need real evidence and not proofs like these.
lfen

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by Jasonb, posted 08-29-2004 4:46 PM Jasonb has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by Jasonb, posted 08-30-2004 10:07 AM lfen has not replied

  
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 27 of 76 (137911)
08-29-2004 5:56 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by Jasonb
08-29-2004 5:07 PM


Hello, Jasonb.
First, the example about UFO's was to show how in less than 30 years a fantastical claim, in this case the earth being regularly visited by beings from another planet, can take hold of the popular imagination and even believed by many, despite the lack of verifiable evidence, despite regular debunking by scientific experts, and despite the fact that there could not have possibly been eye-witnesses. But in fact, there are eye witnesses -- people claim to have been abducted and brought aboard alien space ships. How is this any different from your claim that there were eye witnesses to Jesus? You are the one saying that there could not have been enough time before the first Gospels to be written for the Jesus legends to develop. I am merely pointint out that fantastical legends can develop in a very short amount of time.
So, seeing how quickly legends can develop, even to the point where we have "eye witnesses", how are the Jesus legends sufficiently different to preclude this? I recall that about 40 years is the accepted time between the alleged ministry of Jesus and the writing of the first narrative Gospel.
Remember that Jesus was not the only faith healer at the time -- in fact, we have actual historical records of real faith healers. In fact, we have faith healers today. Faith healers were a normal part of the cultural milieu in those days, so I don't think the authorities, even if they did want to debunk this Jesus cult, would have bothered too much to check out stories of this sort.
At any rate, when did the Jesus cult become so powerful that it needed to be thoroughly debunked? Probably long after the fact, after most of the alleged witnesses had died or been dispersed and impossible to find, and after enough time for many people to "remember" having seen Jesus in person. Before that time, it was probably considered sufficient to simply throw the heretics out of the synogogue when they showed up.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by Jasonb, posted 08-29-2004 5:07 PM Jasonb has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by Jasonb, posted 08-30-2004 11:01 AM Chiroptera has not replied

  
lfen
Member (Idle past 4677 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 28 of 76 (137912)
08-29-2004 6:05 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by Jasonb
08-29-2004 5:40 PM


These were verifiable claims. He was born in Bethlehem.
If this is an example of a verifiable claim please verify it.
He preached sermons to thousands. He healed people, gave sight to the blind. He was crucified. He was buried. That he was raised from the dead and seen by hundreds of other people.
Even if some people didn’t want to know the truth, others would want them to, namely the Jewish leaders. And they could have proven these claims false if it had only been 70 years.
How? It's obvious to me that Joseph Smith's claim about the Book of Mormon are entirely bogus. And there is very good arguments based on some datable material and official records. How many of the millions of mormons will be persuade to abandon their faith?
I'm sorry, but this argument can't turn these claims into facts. If it could lots of other stuff could be proved as fact also.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by Jasonb, posted 08-29-2004 5:40 PM Jasonb has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 29 of 76 (137916)
08-29-2004 6:36 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by Jasonb
08-29-2004 5:04 PM


Well why would these other religions do that sort of investigation ?
What would a failure to find anyone who personally had hear Jesus speak show ? Believers would just say "you didn't look hard enough"
And of course there's no guarantee that evidence that Jesus didn't exist would be preserved. Anti-christian writings from antiquity are not well-preserved.
Finally if you really think that the sort of conclusive proof needed to convince believers and "end" Christianity in the 2nd Century could be easily found then you are being very naive. (Not that producing Jesus and all twelve disciples all swearing that it was a hoax would necessarily be enough to really end Christianity by then).

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by Jasonb, posted 08-29-2004 5:04 PM Jasonb has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by Jasonb, posted 08-30-2004 11:16 AM PaulK has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 30 of 76 (137919)
08-29-2004 6:51 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by Jasonb
08-29-2004 5:40 PM


Well lets look at your "verifiable claims"
"He was born in Bethlehem."
How would you verify that ? Especially when you don't know when he was supposedly born, if it was under local rule or Roman. (I personally beleive this to be false - Jesus was more likely born in Galilee)
"He preached sermons to thousands."
How would you verify that ? Perhaps by produvcing witnesses. Well were witnesses produced ? Was it ever verified ? (I personally believe Jesus' preaching to be exaggerated there's not much record of his preaching in non-Christian sources)
"He healed people, gave sight to the blind."
Standard stories about faith healers. How could that be verified and is there any record that it was ? (I don;'t beleive that one either).
"He was crucified."
Probably true but was it ever verified ?
"He was buried."
Probably - although there's a good chance it was in a common grave and not a tomb. How woudl you verify that ? Today you could maybe dig up mass graves and DNA test all the remains but not back then.
"That he was raised from the dead and seen by hundreds of other people."
Except that the "hundreds of people" don't seem to appear in any of the Gospels or in Acts. If it refers to an actual event it is likely just a vision. And how would you verify that he had been literally raised ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by Jasonb, posted 08-29-2004 5:40 PM Jasonb has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by Jasonb, posted 08-30-2004 11:25 AM PaulK has replied

  
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