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Author Topic:   Adam was created on the 3rd day
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 124 of 233 (400252)
05-11-2007 5:19 PM
Reply to: Message 122 by Garrett
05-11-2007 3:13 PM


Re: An irrelevant technique
Last I heard, the common consensus was the Moses wrote the Pentatuech....
Well, you must have heard this in the 18th century or so. From the Wikipedia article:
quote:
For a number of reasons [authorship by Moses] is no longer accepted by the majority of modern biblical scholars, and contemporary academic debate centres instead on the proposal known as the documentary hypothesis. This postulates that Genesis, together with the other four books, is a composite work assembled from various sources.

Actually, if their god makes better pancakes, I'm totally switching sides. -- Charley the Australopithecine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 122 by Garrett, posted 05-11-2007 3:13 PM Garrett has not replied

  
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 129 of 233 (400404)
05-13-2007 10:15 AM
Reply to: Message 126 by kbertsche
05-13-2007 1:23 AM


consensus opinion vs. merely "defensible"
And Mosaic authorship, though at present a minority view, is certainly defensible.
It would be interesting to see a defense of this. I did a quick Google search, but I'm not very good at using Google so all I came up with are apologetics websites. But this really isn't the main point here.
(1) So far, from my quick search, the main arguments against the consensus' documentary hypothesis sound a lot like creationist arguments against the standard scientific theories. Of course, I'm not as up on Biblical criticism as I probably should be, and so it is possible that in this case these arguments might have some merit.
(2) The arguments mainly claim that those in favor of the documentary hypothesis haven't proven (uh oh, there's that word again) their case. That may be so, but I haven't seen much in the way of positive evidence for Mosaic authorship, just criticisms of aspects of the documentary hypothesis (as if Mosaic authorship should win by default).
(3) It strikes me that most of the people who are advocating Mosaic authorship have religious backgrounds that may have predisposed them to favor the traditional views. Maybe I'm wrong about this, though. Are them many people who initially favored multiple authors but, by the weight of the evidence, came to accept single authorship? Of course, there may be a few people who have an emotional need to find proof that God does not exist, but by and large I can't see why many anyone would be emotionally predisposed toward the documentary hypothesis whereas I can see why people would a priori be more inclined to favor traditional Mosaic authorship. Certainly I could care less whether one person or several wrote the Pentateuch.
(4) Garrett's claim was that the consensus opinion is that Moses wrote the Pentateuch. You even admit that Mosaic authorship is a minority view.
(5) Even if there was a single author for the Pentateuch, this really isn't what people like Garrett are saying. Garrett believes that the Pentateuch was written by an ancient Hebrew slave who was adopted by Pharoah's daughter, spoke to burning bush, did a few magic tricks, then led the entire Hebrew nation out of slavery in Egypt, through the parted red sea, wandered around the Sinai peninsula for 40 years, whacking the occasional rock to get water, and then dropped them all off on the edge of Canaan.
I suppose that any collection of myths may be "defensible", but what would be more impressive is whether there is any positive evidence to support these myths.
Edited by Chiroptera, : Changed the subtitle.

Actually, if their god makes better pancakes, I'm totally switching sides. -- Charley the Australopithecine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 126 by kbertsche, posted 05-13-2007 1:23 AM kbertsche has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 130 by kbertsche, posted 05-13-2007 7:14 PM Chiroptera has replied

  
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 132 of 233 (400439)
05-13-2007 8:06 PM
Reply to: Message 131 by jar
05-13-2007 7:21 PM


Boy, this does put things into proper perspective.
But even Mackey does not try to support Mosaic authorship.
No, it seems to be even better! I haven't read it carefully, but it appears that Mackey is repeating a "theory" that I've seen on various crackpot sites. Namely, that Genesis represents an actual transcription of recorded history written by the actual Biblical Patriarchs at the time of their occurrence. The Hebrews (and their Patriarch ancestors) were lugging around these clay tablets written by Adam, Noah, Abraham, and so forth until Moses (not a name attributed to a hypothetical single author, but the guy who actually parted the Red Sea!) finally re-edited it all together.
But I only skimmed this quickly, so maybe this isn't what Mackey is saying.
Added by edit:
But let others see for themselves. This is where it starts to get good.
Edited by Chiroptera, : No reason given.
Edited by Chiroptera, : Removed another potentially inflammatory remark. Also edited the last edit.

Actually, if their god makes better pancakes, I'm totally switching sides. -- Charley the Australopithecine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 131 by jar, posted 05-13-2007 7:21 PM jar has not replied

  
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 133 of 233 (400442)
05-13-2007 9:27 PM
Reply to: Message 130 by kbertsche
05-13-2007 7:14 PM


Re: consensus opinion vs. merely "defensible"
Here's one reference that I found quickly....
Maybe too quickly? Mackey comes off as a crank, and the site that is hosting that essay, The California Institute for Ancient Studies, seems like a crackpot site.

Actually, if their god makes better pancakes, I'm totally switching sides. -- Charley the Australopithecine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 130 by kbertsche, posted 05-13-2007 7:14 PM kbertsche has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 134 by kbertsche, posted 05-13-2007 10:45 PM Chiroptera has replied

  
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 135 of 233 (400453)
05-14-2007 12:45 AM
Reply to: Message 134 by kbertsche
05-13-2007 10:45 PM


We now have plenty to start with!
If any of you guys REALLY want to research this, I've given you plenty to start with.
You sure did! The Mackey material was a real hoot.
Moving onto the first name on your list, I found some of Gordon Wenham's books on Amazon. Here is a quote from a blurb of one of his books:
quote:
The Word Biblical Commentary delivers the best in biblical scholarship, from the leading scholars of our day who share a commitment to Scripture as divine revelation. This series emphasizes a thorough analysis of textual, linguistic, structural, and theological evidence. The result is judicious and balanced insight into the meanings of the text in the framework of biblical theology. These widely acclaimed commentaries serve as exceptional resources for the professional theologian and instructor, the seminary or university student, the working minister, and everyone concerned with building theological understanding from a solid base of biblical scholarship.
Um, okay. Maybe this particular book (Word Biblical Commentary) isn't meant to be a scholarly work, but it does seem that Dr. Gordon has, er, theological reasons to prefer a traditional approach to Biblical criticism.
One of the works by Dr. Wenham listed on your wiki page is Exploring the Old Testament: The Pentateuch published by SPCK Publishing, who's stated mission is:
quote:
SPCK was founded in 1698 and works to help people to understand and to grow in the Christian faith.
I dunno, maybe in pursuing this mission these folks decided to publish an important scholarly work, but I'm beginning to suspect that Dr. Gordon's main audience is composed of traditional Christians rather than other scholars.
Maybe I'm a bit too suspicious, but I am having a lot of trouble finding any information that would help a layman in Biblical criticism like myself in determining whether Dr. Gordon is a serious scholar who is holding a minority viewpoint or an anti-scholarship crackpot like the folks at Answers in Genesis.
Edited by Chiroptera, : Changed subtitle.

Actually, if their god makes better pancakes, I'm totally switching sides. -- Charley the Australopithecine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 134 by kbertsche, posted 05-13-2007 10:45 PM kbertsche has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 137 by kbertsche, posted 05-14-2007 2:15 AM Chiroptera has replied

  
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 138 of 233 (400532)
05-14-2007 3:56 PM
Reply to: Message 137 by kbertsche
05-14-2007 2:15 AM


misgivings
Thanks for the extended list. I haven't looked up all of them yet, but I am noticing a pattern. First, all the names I have looked up are people who belong to conservative Christian sects or the conservative wings of mainstream sects, and that they have positions at seminaries and religious institutions. Second, all of the information I can look up on the works listed are praises as devotional works.
But what I really noticed is that these people don't seem to be merely arguing against the documentary hypothesis, but are actually arguing for the existence of a historical Moses and the Exodus as an actual historical event.
This correlation seems remarkable to me since the historicity of the Exodus is itself a minority viewpoint in Middle Eastern archeology. And although their subject matters overlap somewhat, archeology and Biblical criticism are different fields relying on different methodologies, and even rely on very different sets of evidence. Single authorship of Genesis and the historicity of the Exodus are not really logically related: I could imagine a single author of the Pentateuch merely copying down the creation myths of his people, and I can imagine multiple authors of the Pentateuch relying on records of an actual historical event. I find it surprising, therefore, that there isn't an instance of someone who finds the textual evidence compelling for a single authorship of Genesis, but nonetheless admits that the archeological evidence is against the historicity of the Exodus. Since in only your third post on this board you expressed misgivings about people's "agenda" on this board, I'll leave it for to you to consider the possible agendas promoted by the people on your list.
Since I really don't want to continue to waste our time with a topic that neither of us seems to be interested in, I'll just ask whether you know of any scholarly works supporting an alternative to the documentary hypothesis by a less religiously motivated person working at a secular Classics department, published, perhaps, by a secular university press, and then leave it there.
Added by edit:
Actually, it just occurred to me that the last question is a bit unfair. Much of the Jesus Seminar, as an example, are associated with schools/departments of theology but that doesn't stop them from publishing work that is reviled by the conservatives. So perhaps academic affiliation isn't really a good way to judge reliability in this field.
Edited by Chiroptera, : Besides adding the last bit, changed subtitle.

Actually, if their god makes better pancakes, I'm totally switching sides. -- Charley the Australopithecine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 137 by kbertsche, posted 05-14-2007 2:15 AM kbertsche has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 139 by kbertsche, posted 05-15-2007 12:04 AM Chiroptera has replied

  
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 141 of 233 (400634)
05-15-2007 7:56 PM
Reply to: Message 139 by kbertsche
05-15-2007 12:04 AM


The point I was trying to make.
I saw comments ridiculing the idea of Mosaic authorship and claiming that there was no scholarly support for it. These comments themselves were very dogmatic and unscholarly, and appeared to come from folks who have no training in biblical or theological areas.
That's fair enough. I was a little surprised myself at the unequivocal denial of evidence for Mosaic scholarship. I was under the impression myself that there was a scientifically legitimate minority that supported single authorship of Genesis.
Unfortunately, your attempts to support this were, in my opinion, not very adequate. Just to take a couple of your examples:
quote:
Eugene Merrill, Kingdom of Priests: A History of Old Testament Israel (I own this one, and highly recommend it)
Bruce Waltke, Genesis (I own this one, and recommend it)
Gordon Wenham, Word Biblical Commentary Vol 1, Gen 1-15 (I own this one, and highly recommend it)
(Added by edit: I purposely chose the ones that you said that you own so you can comment, if you wish, on the accuracy of the comments I am quoting.)
When I look up these individuals and these works I find things that seem troubling to me. I have already commented on Dr. Wenham's book. And here is what I find when I look up the others:
From the blurb on Dr. Watke's book:
quote:
Exploring the first book of the Bible as "theological literature," Waltke illuminates its meanings and methods for the pastor, scholar, teacher, student, and Bible-lover. Genesis strikes an unusual balance by emphasizing the theology of the Scripture text while also paying particular attention to the flow and development of the plot and literary techniques”inclusion, irony, chiasm, and concentric patterning”that shape the message of the "book of beginnings.L Genesis Models the way to read and interpret the narratives of the book of Genesis Provides helpful exegetical notes that address key issues and debates surrounding the text Includes theological reflections on how the message addresses our contemporary theological and social issues, such as ecology, homosexuality, temperance, evil, prayer, and obedience
And here is what I find for Dr. Merrill's work (written by someone who wrote a positive review):
quote:
The crucial fact to consider in this work is that Merrill explicitly states that his position stems from the assumption that the Bible is the revealed Word of GOD (itself a minority view among "Biblical scholars").
I just don't understand what these sorts of things have to do with "scholarship". I'm sure that you, as a scientist, don't include stuff like this in your scholarly writings, and I don't see what these have to do with what is essentially a historical analysis.
I have read exactly three books on Biblical criticism. I won't specify which ones since I think they tended to be out of the mainstream themselves and I don't want that to distract from the point I am trying to make. Namely, that these books read exactly like secular history. During the course of this thread, I decided to look up the authors, and found out that one is a Jesuit priest and the other teaches at a seminary affiliated with the Methodist Church. I was greatly surprised by this (prompting the addendum in my previous post) -- I never suspected their religious backgrounds from reading these particular works.
To me, this is what scholarship is. It doesn't have to be dry or uninteresting, but the writer should not be betraying so explicitly her own ideological partisanship. After all, it is a fact that a single person wrote Genesis, or it is a fact that Genesis is the result of the work of several people. This fact should be ascertainable simply by examining whatever physical evidence there is, whether is is a careful analysis of the texts or an examination of archeological finds. Just as in biology and geology, one's religious beliefs should be completely irrelevant as to what the facts are, and what are the reasonable inferences that one can draw from those facts.
That is not to say that the people on your list aren't scholars. And it may very well be that mixed in with the theological junk there is some valid textual criticism and historical analysis. But sure, as a scientist, you can see how mixing the theology would diminish the credibility of the works? I think we all recognize what a great scholar William Paley was, but we also recognize that his Natural Theology is a very different creature than the Natural History of Lyell and Darwin.
Now I don't know Classical Hebrew or Akkadian or Aramaic. I do not have any direct experience with Middle Eastern archeology or Mesopotamian histriography. So when someone is trying to explain something to me, I have no way of knowing, really, how reliable they are, and when several people's accounts contradict one another I really don't know who is more accurate. I have to figure out some way of deciding how reliable the various sources are. So when I find this about the institution with which Dr. Merrill is affiliated:
quote:
Dallas Seminary stands unequivocally committed to the Scriptures, God's inerrant, infallible, authoritative written revelation.
and I find similar statements connected with several of the authors on your list, I start to get a little bit suspicious. Regardless of these particular persons' opinions on the issue, they are part of the same crowd that has so badly embarrassed themselves in regards to biology and geology. Now am I really expected that suddenly these people are going to have an open mind when they study the scriptures that are central to their faith?
That is what I find most telling about your list. You make it seem as if Mosaic authorship is confined to the conservative wing of believing Christians. Surely you must realize how suspicious that is. If the evidence is not yet final for the documentary hypothesis, if there is reason to believe in single authorship (even for Moses himself as author), then where are the agnostic and secular researchers and the liberal theologians who accept single authorship?
I am still willing to believe that Mosaic authorship is a scientifically legitimate (if minority) position, and that the list you supplied just reflects where your personal interests in this matter lie. I am simply trying to explain why, based on what little I know, I would probably not be impressed with the sources you cite.
And, of course, I may be wrong. The blurbs I quote might be wrong; the works you cite may have no theology whatsoever (except what is necessary to explain the historical context, of course), and that they read exactly like secular history texts.
Edited by Chiroptera, : Added indicated sentence. And, what the heck, I might as well change the subtitle, too.

Actually, if their god makes better pancakes, I'm totally switching sides. -- Charley the Australopithecine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 139 by kbertsche, posted 05-15-2007 12:04 AM kbertsche has not replied

  
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