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Author Topic:   What's Best Reconciliation of Gen 1 and 2 You've Heard?
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1343 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 286 of 307 (317820)
06-05-2006 6:27 AM
Reply to: Message 285 by Rob
06-05-2006 6:23 AM


Re: still grotesquely off topic
Your going to 'get it' after all.
considering that i am a theistic evolutionist, i think you have less argument with me than you think.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 285 by Rob, posted 06-05-2006 6:23 AM Rob has replied

Replies to this message:
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Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5848 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 287 of 307 (317822)
06-05-2006 6:28 AM
Reply to: Message 284 by 2ice_baked_taters
06-05-2006 6:20 AM


2ice what are you talking about?
Was anything you said factual, and if so, it is all meanignless to me...
You think this... I think that. Well, then go away and keep your pivacy private. Personally I believe in community.

Any biters in the stream?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 284 by 2ice_baked_taters, posted 06-05-2006 6:20 AM 2ice_baked_taters has not replied

Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5848 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 288 of 307 (317823)
06-05-2006 6:29 AM
Reply to: Message 286 by arachnophilia
06-05-2006 6:27 AM


Re: still grotesquely off topic
considering that i am a theistic evolutionist, i think you have less argument with me than you think.
Very good! I was too for a long time, so yes we are very near each other.
ok got to run boys and girls, duty calls. I enjoy the discussions...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 286 by arachnophilia, posted 06-05-2006 6:27 AM arachnophilia has not replied

AdminPD
Inactive Administrator


Message 289 of 307 (317832)
06-05-2006 7:15 AM


Warning - Off Topic
Everyone, please get back to the topic and stop the short useless posts.
Remember argue the position and not the person.
Please direct any comments concerning this Admin msg to the Moderation Thread.
Thank you Purple

ramoss
Member (Idle past 611 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 290 of 307 (317842)
06-05-2006 8:05 AM
Reply to: Message 271 by Rob
06-04-2006 9:18 PM


Back on topic, if evolution is true, the Bible is false! I tried to get around it for a long time by personally viewing Genesis as more symbolism and metaphor than fact. But I was against the wall, and was totally unprepaired for the philosophical clarity of the intelligent design arguments.
The misreprentations of fact, logical fallacies, ignoring evidence that does not match a predetermined conclusion is not 'philosophical clarity'. In the 'intelligence design' area, this can be demonstrated
to you in precise detail.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 271 by Rob, posted 06-04-2006 9:18 PM Rob has not replied

nwr
Member
Posts: 6408
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 291 of 307 (317845)
06-05-2006 8:17 AM
Reply to: Message 284 by 2ice_baked_taters
06-05-2006 6:20 AM


2ice_baked_taters writes:
Facts have no meaning.
and
2ice_baked_taters writes:
I would say that in light of the general weight of meaning that any religious text was meant to convey, thus far this topic has been devoid of anything meaningful and to me quite pointless and absurd.
I now see that you were talking of metaphoric meaning, and of other kinds of secondary meaning.
I wish you had made that clear in the first place. Facts are inherently meaningful, so your apparent statements to the contrary come across as obviously wrong. However, if you were referring to secondary meaning, then you might have a point.
Let's connect this back to the topic we are supposed to be discussing. The Genesis 1 and 2 stories, even though factually false, can indeed have important secondary meanings.
Note: I use "secondary" with respect to the way language works. What I am calling a secondary meaning could still be what the author(s) intended as their primary meaning.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 284 by 2ice_baked_taters, posted 06-05-2006 6:20 AM 2ice_baked_taters has replied

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2ice_baked_taters
Member (Idle past 5850 days)
Posts: 566
From: Boulder Junction WI.
Joined: 02-16-2006


Message 292 of 307 (317913)
06-05-2006 10:44 AM
Reply to: Message 291 by nwr
06-05-2006 8:17 AM


It is obvious that the main goal of any religious text is to teach metaphorical lessons where facts are but window dressing for the meanings to be conveyed. Let us say that the bible for arguements sake was complete hisotrical fiction. It would in no way invalidate the many time tested values and lessons it teaches that still hold true today. To discuss any work of such value in a purely factual framework and use that to vlaidate or invalidate the lessons meant to be conveyed
is simply ignoring the entire point of why the text emerged in the first place.
Note: I use "secondary" with respect to the way language works. What I am calling a secondary meaning could still be what the author(s) intended as their primary meaning.
Yes...language and it's use conveys the meaning. However, one must note that regardless of a general intended meaning the interpretations
reflect what the individual relates to and searches for. Despite this people as a whole share many of the same basic valuable life shaping interpretations. This often crosses religious borders and seems to reflect basic values we gravitate to as a whole of humanity.
There are many "genesis" stories. In all that I have heard the facts are window dressing to the meanings meant to be conveyed. The meaning moral/life shaping lessons are the purpose and surely how they were meant to be viewed and discussed. This is the primary function. To make us think about the meaning of life if you will.

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Replies to this message:
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vitalprikalist
Inactive Member


Message 293 of 307 (317961)
06-05-2006 1:16 PM


Genesis 1,2
There are no problems with these chapters. Animals were created first. Then, when man was created, God created the animals in front of man so that he could name them. Also, since God created the animals in front of Adam, satan couldn't come in and claim to have been the creator. That is why satan went after Eve first.

Replies to this message:
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Jon
Inactive Member


Message 294 of 307 (317973)
06-05-2006 1:48 PM
Reply to: Message 293 by vitalprikalist
06-05-2006 1:16 PM


Re: Genesis 1,2
Animals were created first.
Then, when man was created, God created the animals in front of man so that he could name them.
Does this mean the animals were created twice? It helps to rid the contradiction, but only to bring up another question: why make animals twice? Why make them before Man and then after Man? Certainly just making Man first to start with would accomplish what you say here:
...since God created the animals in front of Adam, satan couldn't come in and claim to have been the creator.
And then we wouldn't need the extra creation of animals.
That is why satan went after Eve first.
That's a very interesting point of view. For now, I can't see much wrong with it. Despite the rest of your message, this part seems like it just might hold some water.
Trék

This message is a reply to:
 Message 293 by vitalprikalist, posted 06-05-2006 1:16 PM vitalprikalist has not replied

Teets_Creationist
Inactive Member


Message 295 of 307 (318071)
06-05-2006 6:19 PM


No Contradiction If Read LITERALLY
Let me tell you first, I am new, and read only some of the other arguments, so if I am saying something here someone else said, I didn't see it. But I do find it funny that this is an issue. This whole debate can be settled with a DICTIONARY. Now I know this may be hard for some, but you must think like a literalist, and actually read the Gen. 1 and 2 chapters literally. Check out the definitions on the words CREATED, MADE, and FORMED. No where in Chapter 2 does it say that God again CREATED the animals, it says that He FORMED the animals. Creation was all in Chapter 1, also the word MADE was used, meaning the same as CREATED. I am not quoting any scripture in my reply, nor am I giving the definitions of those words. I am making you look them up yourself. Anyone who really wants the answer, will do the research. If you don't, then you just like arguing! I am using a KJV Bible, so that you can look up the same and see what I am seeing. If you don't have a Bible, there are many online. I am not doing any research for you guys, just pointing out that this is a non-issue, and how to see it as a literalist. Summary:
Genesis chapter 1, CREATED or MADE, Genesis chapter 2, FORMED. You may choose to keep your opinion of a non-literal Bible, but there is no controversy here, if you are reading literally.

Replies to this message:
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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 296 of 307 (318084)
06-05-2006 6:38 PM
Reply to: Message 295 by Teets_Creationist
06-05-2006 6:19 PM


Re: No Contradiction If Read LITERALLY
Genesis chapter 1, CREATED or MADE, Genesis chapter 2, FORMED.
Those are synonyms.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 295 by Teets_Creationist, posted 06-05-2006 6:19 PM Teets_Creationist has not replied

CK
Member (Idle past 4127 days)
Posts: 3221
Joined: 07-04-2004


Message 297 of 307 (318088)
06-05-2006 6:45 PM
Reply to: Message 295 by Teets_Creationist
06-05-2006 6:19 PM


Re: No Contradiction If Read LITERALLY
quote:
No where in Chapter 2 does it say that God again CREATED the animals, it says that He FORMED the animals. Creation was all in Chapter 1, also the word MADE was used, meaning the same as CREATED.
Create
1. transitive verb make something: to bring something into existence
Made
artificially produced: produced by artificial means
form
to begin to exist or to make something begin to exist
So..em..God created the animals but em.. they didn't exist until genesis 2? Is that what you are saying?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 295 by Teets_Creationist, posted 06-05-2006 6:19 PM Teets_Creationist has not replied

Jon
Inactive Member


Message 298 of 307 (318089)
06-05-2006 6:46 PM
Reply to: Message 295 by Teets_Creationist
06-05-2006 6:19 PM


Re: No Contradiction If Read LITERALLY
If you bring the arguement to the table, you need the evidence. You can't bring up the arguement and tell us to go find evidence supporting your opinion!
Nevertheless:
Check out the definitions on the words CREATED, MADE, and FORMED.
quote:
Dictionary.com
v. formed, form·ing, forms
v. tr.
1.
1. To give form to; shape: form clay into figures.
2. To develop in the mind; conceive: form an opinion.
2.
1. To shape or mold (dough, for example) into a particular form.
2. To arrange oneself in: Holding out his arms, the cheerleader formed a T. The acrobats formed a pyramid.
3. To organize or arrange: The environmentalists formed their own party.
4. To fashion, train, or develop by instruction or precept: form a child's mind.
3. To come to have; develop or acquire: form a habit.
4. To constitute or compose a usually basic element, part, or characteristic of.
5.
1. To produce (a tense, for example) by inflection: form the pluperfect.
2. To make (a word) by derivation or composition.
6. To put in order; arrange.
v. intr.
1. To become formed or shaped.
2. To come into being by taking form; arise.
3. To assume a specified form, shape, or pattern.
quote:
Dictionary.com
tr.v. cre·at·ed, cre·at·ing, cre·ates
1. To cause to exist; bring into being. See Synonyms at found1.
2. To give rise to; produce: That remark created a stir.
3. To invest with an office or title; appoint.
4. To produce through artistic or imaginative effort: create a poem; create a role.
adj. Archaic
Created.
quote:
Dictionary.com
v. made, (md) mak·ing, makes
v. tr.
1. To cause to exist or happen; bring about; create: made problems for us; making a commotion.
2. To bring into existence by shaping, modifying, or putting together material; construct: make a dress; made a stone wall.
3. To form by assembling individuals or constituents: make a quorum.
4. To change from one form or function to another: make clay into bricks.
5.
1. To cause to be or become: made her position clear; a decision that made him happy.
2. To cause to assume a specified function or role: made her treasurer; made Austin his home.
6.
1. To cause to act in a specified manner: Heat makes gases expand.
2. To compel: made him quit.
7.
1. To form in the mind: make an estimate.
2. To compose: make verses.
8.
1. To prepare; fix: make dinner.
2. To get ready or set in order for use: made the bed.
3. To gather and light the materials for (a fire).
9.
1. To engage in: make war.
2. To carry out; perform: make a phone call; make an incision.
10. To achieve, produce, or attain: made peace between the two sides; not making sense; didn't make the quota.
11.
1. To institute or establish; enact: make laws.
2. To draw up and execute in a suitable form: make a will.
3. To arrange or agree to: make a date.
12.
1. To arrive at; reach: made Seattle in two hours.
2. To reach in time: just made the plane.
13.
1. To attain the rank or position of: made lieutenant.
2. To acquire a place in or on: made the baseball team; made the newspapers.
14.
1. To gain or earn, as by working: make money.
2. To behave so as to acquire: make friends.
3. To score or achieve, as in a sport: made a field goal.
15.
1. To assure the success of: Favorable reviews can make a play.
2. To favor the development of: Practice makes a winning team.
16. To be suited for: Oak makes strong furniture.
17. To develop into: will make a fine doctor.
18.
1. To draw a conclusion as to the significance or nature of: don't know what to make of the decision.
2. To calculate as being; estimate: I make the height 20 feet.
3. To consider as being: wasn't the problem some people made it.
19.
1. To constitute: Ten members make a quorum.
2. To add up to: Two and two make four.
3. To amount to: makes no difference.
20. To cover (a distance): made 200 miles before sunset
21. To constitute the essence or nature of: Clothes make the man.
22. To cause to be especially enjoyable or rewarding: You made my day.
23. To appear to begin (an action): She made to leave.
24. Slang. To persuade to have sexual intercourse.
v. intr.
1. To act or behave in a specified manner: make merry; make free.
2. To begin or appear to begin an action: made as if to shake my hand.
3. To cause something to be as specified: make ready; make sure.
4. To proceed in a certain direction: made for home; made after the thief.
5. Slang. To pretend to be; imitate. Used with like: made like a ballerina.
6. To undergo fabrication or manufacture: This wool makes up into a warm shawl.
7. To rise or accumulate: The tide is making.
n.
1. The act or process of making; manufacturing.
2. The style or manner in which a thing is made: disliked the make of my coat.
3. The amount produced, especially the output of a factory.
4. A specific line of manufactured goods, identified by the manufacturer's name or the registered trademark: a famous make of shirt.
5. The physical or moral nature of a person; character or disposition: found out what make of man he was.
6. Slang. Identification of a person or thing, often from information in police records: Did you get a make on the thief?
Any chance you could tell us which definition you're using? And please, say what you have to say AND add your evidence. We're running out of posts.
Trék

This message is a reply to:
 Message 295 by Teets_Creationist, posted 06-05-2006 6:19 PM Teets_Creationist has not replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 299 of 307 (318118)
06-05-2006 8:02 PM
Reply to: Message 293 by vitalprikalist
06-05-2006 1:16 PM


Re: Genesis 1,2
vitalprikalist writes:
... since God created the animals in front of Adam, satan couldn't come in and claim to have been the creator. That is why satan went after Eve first.
When did satan claim to be the creator?

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 293 by vitalprikalist, posted 06-05-2006 1:16 PM vitalprikalist has not replied

AdminPD
Inactive Administrator


Message 300 of 307 (318126)
06-05-2006 8:33 PM


End of Thread
300's the limit
Stow the prose,
No more discussion
It's time to close.
Finis
See you in another thread. Magic Wand

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