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Author Topic:   The Epic of Gilgamesh and the Bible. Which came first?
Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3047 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 20 of 90 (265903)
12-05-2005 9:58 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Lysimachus
12-03-2005 1:41 PM


It is ignorant error to assume older = falsifier of younger.
We know there are older ancient texts than Mosaic Torah. The Torah CLAIMS to be the protected version of "genesis" events - protected by God. All others are not and subject to unprotected errors and embellishments.
Similarities in varying ancient texts is corroboration that the event DID happen. The accurate version is in the Torah because its content was jealously controlled by God.
Gilgamesh confirms there was a Flood. The Torah supplies the protected version of what really happened.
All ancient peoples and sources traced back prior to the introduction of idol worship show a world worshipping one known universal Deity. That Deity was the God of the Bible who decided to write the official version of Earth's genesis events starting in the 15 century BC. Older texts and sources corroborate Torah facts and the universal Deity who is known by many other names in these older texts.
Ray Martinez

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Lysimachus, posted 12-03-2005 1:41 PM Lysimachus has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by Brian, posted 12-06-2005 4:35 AM Cold Foreign Object has replied

  
Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3047 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 28 of 90 (266201)
12-06-2005 8:12 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by Brian
12-06-2005 4:35 AM


Re: You need to be more critical Ray.
RAY: It is ignorant error to assume older = falsifier of younger.
BRIAN: Indeed it is, a point that the author of the article seems unaware of.
RAY: I am glad we have agreement.
Ray writes:
The Torah CLAIMS to be the protected version of "genesis" events - protected by God.
Brian responding writes:
Does it really claim this Ray? Are there even any suggestions in the Hebrew Bible that Moses wrote the Pentateuch as so many fundies claim?
First, by equating anyone who believes the evidence of the Bible as a "fundie" you are relying on a modern negative cultural stereotype/ad hom argument. A fundy is the bad element in any given good (religion); like Darwinists, who are the bad element/Fundies of Science.
Second, yes we know Moses wrote major portions of the Torah, however. Would it please you if I concede Deuteronomy was written, probably by Jeremiah ?
Ray writes:
All others are not and subject to unprotected errors and embellishments.
Brian responding writes:
Well, perhaps they are protected by their gods, after all, there is as much evidence for the existence of Yahweh as there is for the existence of any other god.
Really ?
Where are the disciples of these gods today and do they engage in proselytization ?
Ray writes:
Similarities in varying ancient texts is corroboration that the event DID happen.
Brian responding writes:
This is an error. Similarities in varying ancient texts do not confirm any external event. These similarities only confirm that texts were either copied and edited, or became corrupt in some way, they do not confirm anything external.
You have made an error by saying I have made an error when in reality we just disagree.
My point is correct because, as we know, there were no modern communication abilities in antiquity, no newspapers, radio, television, etc. etc. The scribes of any given kingdom did not know what the scribes of other civilizations were writing or did write. Common denominators found in ancient sources, logically corroborate any event as a historical fact. Common denominators are spectacular evidence of corroboration. Theists claim the correct version of facts is found in the Holy Bible. [source: Dr. Scott]
Brian writes:
To confirm the Flood as an historical reality takes a lot more than a mention in various ancient texts, it requires external evidence to corroborate the textual claims.
The worldwide Flood accounts are impossible to have been manipulated as a conspiracy. They voluminously prove: 1) Flood did happen. 2) A handful were saved on a boat. Because communication was impossible, it is irrational to believe that antiquity, from all over the world somehow invented THE SAME myth simultaneously.
You are **special pleading**, saying the evidence does not mean what it evokes at face value.
The true version of events are recorded in Genesis. That is why the Bible was written - to preserve facts that the ravages of time and environment will destroy.
Human evolution and their paucity of hominid scraps can certainly relate
Do you know where the tradition of bobbing for apples comes from ?
The Ark bobbing in the stormy sea. [source: C.W. Ceram "God, Graves, and Scholars"]
Brian writes:
So jealously controlled that no original texts exist, many variant conflicting copies are in circulation, and external evidence negates (or does not support) almost the entire Torah.
We theists obviously disagree.
Ray writes:
All ancient peoples and sources traced back prior to the introduction of idol worship show a world worshipping one known universal Deity.
Brian responding writes:
Can you elaborate a little?
Dr. Scott says (paraphrase):
"Social Evolutionists predicted modern Biblical monotheism would be found to have an origin in ancient idol worship. In fact they did evidence this claim via archaeology. Theist archaeologists became enraged and predicted they would find evidence proving all idol worship to have monotheist origins, that is prior to idol worship the world worshipped one universal Deity. They in fact proved their claim and prediction via archaeology."
Dr. Scott made this point while reading theist archaeologist Don Richardson's book "With Eternity in their Hearts". A archaeological and anthropological report proving the theist prediction.
Amazon.com
What does this mean? That God decided to start writing the Bible in the 15th century BCE?
Thats when the Exodus happened - remember ?
After the event Moses BEGAN writing the Torah in the Wilderness.
Exodus 24:4
"And Moses wrote all the words of the LORD"
Numbers 33:2
"And Moses WROTE their goings out according to their journeys by the commandment of the LORD"
Notice he did it because God said to do it.
How was your laser surgery ?
Ray

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Replies to this message:
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Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3047 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 57 of 90 (268480)
12-12-2005 10:10 PM
Reply to: Message 54 by Brian
12-12-2005 1:18 PM


Even conservative Christian scholars, such as Albright, Wright, and Bright, all accept that the 15th c. date should be abandoned.
Is it not true that the Albright source cite you rely on for this claim was early in his career ?
Ray

This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by Brian, posted 12-12-2005 1:18 PM Brian has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 63 by Brian, posted 12-13-2005 12:59 PM Cold Foreign Object has replied

  
Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3047 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 85 of 90 (270358)
12-17-2005 3:45 PM
Reply to: Message 63 by Brian
12-13-2005 12:59 PM


Re: He realised early in his career
Hi Brian !
Quick review:
Brian said Albright the christian concluded against the Biblical date of the Exodus (mid-15th century).
Think he was in his early 40's when he wrote this, but he maintained the 13th c date until he died.
I know this is a thorny question but how is the christianity of a person determined ? How do we separate out persons making the claim who are not as such ?
We know Hitler claimed to be a christian. Pat Robertson too. Darwin claimed to be a christian. Persons who reject the Resurrection of Christ claim to be a christian (imagine that !).
Did you know Albright was an evolutionist ?
We know the Bible does not teach Darwinian evolution by any objective rendering.
Ray
This message has been edited by Herepton, 12-17-2005 12:46 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 63 by Brian, posted 12-13-2005 12:59 PM Brian has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 86 by Brian, posted 12-19-2005 6:32 AM Cold Foreign Object has replied
 Message 88 by macaroniandcheese, posted 12-19-2005 10:16 AM Cold Foreign Object has not replied

  
Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3047 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 89 of 90 (271201)
12-20-2005 8:04 PM
Reply to: Message 86 by Brian
12-19-2005 6:32 AM


Re: He realised early in his career
You aren't seriously suggesting that Albright wasn't a Christian because he didn't accept a 15th century Exodus?
It certainly is an indication.
One reason that I think he was a Christian is precisely because he went with the weight of the evidence.
Then you are saying Christian disagrees with the Bible. Its the other way around. Christian agrees with Bible.
He, of course, reinterpreted many passages to fit with his dating, but doesn't everyone do this?
Not me.
We both know a mere 200 years is the variance of disagreement when dating the Exodus. If we account for the personal worldview bias of minis (13th century) all of the data fits the 15th century.
I think Hitler was a Christian. We are supposed to be made in the image of God, and as God is a bloodthirsty, racist, bigot, then it is obvious that Hitler was made in His image.
Anyone who actually believes Hitler's claim is obviously grinding an axe.
Maybe believing that you are a Christian is enough, does it really matter if anyone else believes that you are? Does it matter to you that many people didnt think that Dr. Scott was a Christian?
Fundies thought Dr. Scott was the devil incarnate. Imagine that; a Preacher who smoked a cigar and had a Ph.D. from Stanford ? Their disapproval proved his rightness.
Over at the Talk Origins Usenet they think I am the devil incarnate. Imagine that - Darwinists think I am the devil ?
Did you know that he was also a religious bigot and a racist?
No I did not.
But since he was an evolutionist - we know Darwin sure was.
So, you are saying that Albright wasn't a creationist, do you have a reference for that?
Coming right up....
Ray

This message is a reply to:
 Message 86 by Brian, posted 12-19-2005 6:32 AM Brian has not replied

  
Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3047 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 90 of 90 (271205)
12-20-2005 8:19 PM
Reply to: Message 86 by Brian
12-19-2005 6:32 AM


Re: He realised early in his career
So, you are saying that Albright wasn't a creationist, do you have a reference for that?
http://www.apologeticspress.org/articles/2020
As a rule, archaeologists endorse evolutionary assumptions that the Earth is ancient and that man developed gradually”both physically and intellectually”over millions of years. Kenyon attributed the development of the Jordan Valley to vast terrestrial movements two million years ago (Kenyon, 1957b, p. 23). Albright discussed in detail the “...artistic evolution of Homo sapiens,” which first began around 30,000 to 20,000 B.C. (1942, pp. 6-10). Allegedly, as man slowly “evolved,” he learned how to manufacture tools from stones, and gradually developed the ability to make pottery. With his discovery of fire, he learned to fashion tools from copper and iron. Thus, archaeologists assume that centuries transpired before man graduated from stone tools and weapons to metallic implements.
Ray

This message is a reply to:
 Message 86 by Brian, posted 12-19-2005 6:32 AM Brian has not replied

  
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