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Author Topic:   Name The City
Joseppi
Member (Idle past 2553 days)
Posts: 50
From: New Albany, In, USA
Joined: 08-23-2010


Message 106 of 126 (576251)
08-23-2010 1:13 PM


Babylon the city of the nations.
Speaking of Babylon the Great...
Revelation 16:19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell:....

Note that the great city is as literal as are the cities of the nations.
Note that the implication here is that the great city (Babylon) is not any nation's city. Rather, it is here presented as the great city "of" the nations.

Edited by Joseppi, : No reason given.


  
Joseppi
Member (Idle past 2553 days)
Posts: 50
From: New Albany, In, USA
Joined: 08-23-2010


Message 107 of 126 (576254)
08-23-2010 1:30 PM


Revelation 17:...the waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues.

A whore is not a prostitute. A whore doesn't require payment but only personal pleasure.
That she is sitting doesn't imply ownership but rather...authority.
That she is sitting implies a casual assumption of authority.

When a person is said "To stand up" it is meant that they are putting into action a function of their authority and power in it's fulness.
Compare, for example, when Daniel says...

Daniel 11:4 And when he shall stand up, his kingdom shall be broken...

Which refers to Alexander the Great.
Note that WHEN he stands up is WHEN he is broken.
Thus when we look at Alexander we note that he is considered to stand up, not when he first left Greece but, after achieving the fulness of his kingdom's power.
Also note that "he shall stand up" denotes that it is his own perogative.

Thus the whore's sitting denotes a comfortable assumption of power. That is, she sits only after the fulness of the final world kingdom is obtained.
When one remembers that she sits upon the beast, then one can note that, the "peoples, multitudes, nations and tongues" correspond to the beast, as a kingdom. (not as a person)


  
Joseppi
Member (Idle past 2553 days)
Posts: 50
From: New Albany, In, USA
Joined: 08-23-2010


Message 108 of 126 (576257)
08-23-2010 1:49 PM


Revelation 18:3 ...all nations have drank of the wine of the wrath of her fornications, and the kings of the earth have committed fornications with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.

All nations having drunk of her proves that the setting is a global one (as do all other indications).
Drunk of wine means that all who drank are no longer completely in control of their reasoning powers. There is a great emotional impact.
That emotion is "the wrath of her fornication."
The fornication she is involved with causes her to be wrathful.
Two main groups of men are involved intimately with her fornication and it's wrath.
Kings and merchants.
The kings are governmental authorities. Whereas, merchants are marketplace authorities and powers.
These two groups reveal why they participate in her fornication. The see a greed to be fulfilled.
The kings think to establish themselves as global authorities with global power.
The merchants think to make gain by commerce.
The implied understanding being that, she seduces them into giving her authority by means of greed/worldliness.
Which is evident to all even now I would think.

Edited by Joseppi, : No reason given.


  
Joseppi
Member (Idle past 2553 days)
Posts: 50
From: New Albany, In, USA
Joined: 08-23-2010


Message 109 of 126 (576264)
08-23-2010 2:10 PM


Revelation 18:20 Rejoice over her, thou heaven, and ye holy apostles, and prophets; for God hath avenged you on her.

Note that this rejoicing of the holy apostles and prophets over the whores destruction while the kings and merchants bemoan her end proves that the wrath of her fornication involved wrath against the saints that the apostles and prophets represent as authorities.

I don't think it requires great insight to conclude that...
The great city is built on the premise of a global world order, which order is established by worldly lust for power and wealth.
When one remembers how the beast man imposes, by way of the false prophet, a commerce system that is based on a MARK (market) that entails idolatrous worship of a image of the beast man. Thus when one considers her fornication to be idolatry and that it causes her to have great wrath against the saints, then the conclusion is that she has set up a global system whereby all crafts can prosper at the expense of persecuting the saints of God. For her reasoning is that all her fornications (idolatries) are acceptable but not the purity of the faith of the saints.
Again, this trend is even now advancing.

Islam is being thrust into the face of the American populace for this reason.
By means of the capital "T" terrorism, a global enemy is asserted that no national war can overcome. Thus a global entity must be created to deal with it.
The islamic terror is highlighted so as to establish a need for a peaceful one world religion acceptable to all peoples, multitudes, nations and tongues.
The result will be the predictable non-compliance of non worldly Christians. When the Christian faith is inserted between a global crisis, and the utopian solution to be offered, then it is easily seen that the saints of God will become the scapegoats of all failures to provide the utopian dream. Thus they will succumb to the tactic of global persecution.

Edited by Joseppi, : No reason given.


  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 110 of 126 (605432)
02-19-2011 4:20 PM


Bumping Mystery Babylon Back On Track
This thread has wandered way off track from the list of criteria cited in the OP which must all apply in order to determine what is described in chapters 17 and 18 of the Revelation prophecy. Message 1 lists the criteria which is required in order to apply Mystery Babylon to an existing city on the planet.

Too many of the responses which have derailed this thread cite one or two similarities of cities existing here and there in the nations.

What I want to focus on here is to cite a city that best fits the greatest number of items listed in the OP as follows:

quote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The prophecy of Mystery Babylon covered in chapters 17 and 18 states no less than five times that this is about a specific city which would emerge to exist upon the earth. There is a city, only one on the planet which fits the description given in the text. No, I say, no other city on the entire planet fits the ticket for ALL the data given in these two chapters. Yes some cities have some of the characteristics, but only one has them all. Name that city.
Lets have a look at the data given beginning with chapter 17:

    l. Sits on "many waters" (verse 1) which are interpreted in verse 15
    as peoples, nations and tongues. So this city owns property all over the planet.

    2. Verse 2.....has had illicit dealings with the kings of the earth, indicative of being known for involvement around the earth with a lot of political activity.

    3. Verse 4....Some prominent colors visible around the city and her foreign properties are red, purple and gold as well as lavish and expensive things like precious stones, etc. In other words, known for a lot of fancy stuff and glitter.

    4. verse 6....Involved with some nasty stuff like causing the death of Christians to the extent of being "drunken" with their blood.

    5. verse 3......Sits upon a descriptive metaphoric "beast" whose 7 heads are seven hills/mountains/geological locations and whose 10 horns are ten kings/kingdoms.
    Note here that she sits among the nations so imo, one must assume that these "hills" are also global. The only global "hill"/high places I know of that are global are the continents of the planet. There is only one city on the face of the earth which actually owns vast real estate on the earth's continents.

    6. verse 16....The ten beast kings shall come to hate the city and shall persecute her and eventually cause her destruction. (This rules out the beast as being one and the same as the city (as some responders in this thread have determined.

    7. verse 18.....The city has at some time or other been known to actually have exercised ruling power over the kings of the earth.

    8. Chapter 18, verses 11-13: She is involved in all kinds of commercial things, fine things and even in the souls of men, indicative of a religious element.

It is prophesied that the time will come when this city will burn up and be gone in ONE HOUR'S TIME. It will of needs, in order to be fulfilled, come to happen at a time when it is possible for a city to be burned up in such a short time. It will of needs also have to happen at a time in history when it is possible for kings, ship masters and others to view the burning from afar. These, imo indicative of both nuclear destructive devices and television.


Note: I have added, with emphasis, some to the original OP.


BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future.
Replies to this message:
 Message 111 by jar, posted 02-19-2011 4:32 PM Buzsaw has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 29747
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 111 of 126 (605434)
02-19-2011 4:32 PM
Reply to: Message 110 by Buzsaw
02-19-2011 4:20 PM


Re: Bumping Mystery Babylon Back On Track
See Message 103.

Washington, DC is the city that most closely matches the prophecy.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
This message is a reply to:
 Message 110 by Buzsaw, posted 02-19-2011 4:20 PM Buzsaw has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 112 by Buzsaw, posted 02-19-2011 6:33 PM jar has responded

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 112 of 126 (605444)
02-19-2011 6:33 PM
Reply to: Message 111 by jar
02-19-2011 4:32 PM


Re: Bumping Mystery Babylon Back On Track
jar writes:

See Message 103.

Washington, DC is the city that most closely matches the prophecy.

These two messages are bare one line assertions. You need to show how Washington DC meets each criteria on the list.


BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 111 by jar, posted 02-19-2011 4:32 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 113 by jar, posted 02-19-2011 6:55 PM Buzsaw has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 29747
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 113 of 126 (605445)
02-19-2011 6:55 PM
Reply to: Message 112 by Buzsaw
02-19-2011 6:33 PM


Mystery Babylon is DC
Buzsaw writes:

jar writes:

See Message 103.

Washington, DC is the city that most closely matches the prophecy.

These two messages are bare one line assertions. You need to show how Washington DC meets each criteria on the list.

Well, let's look at your examples based on quote mining.

Buz writes:

l. Sits on "many waters" (verse 1) which are interpreted in verse 15
as peoples, nations and tongues. So this city owns property all over the planet.

The US Government owns property all over the world.

Buz writes:

2. Verse 2.....has had illicit dealings with the kings of the earth, indicative of being known for involvement around the earth with a lot of political activity.

the US government has a tradition of illicit dealings with foreign governments like the Iran Contra deals and the overthrow of democratically elected leaders and support of terrorists.

Buz writes:

3. Verse 4....Some prominent colors visible around the city and her foreign properties are red, purple and gold as well as lavish and expensive things like precious stones, etc. In other words, known for a lot of fancy stuff and glitter.

US Embassies are known for their lavish furnishings. The US is known for style over substance and lack of taste.

Buz writes:

4. verse 6....Involved with some nasty stuff like causing the death of Christians to the extent of being "drunken" with their blood.

The US has a history of very nasty stuff, overthrowing governments, causing the deaths of believers and non-believers alike, like vetoing the condemnation of Israel building settlements in Palestine.

Buz writes:

5. verse 3......Sits upon a descriptive metaphoric "beast" whose 7 heads are seven hills/mountains/geological locations and whose 10 horns are ten kings/kingdoms.
Note here that she sits among the nations so imo, one must assume that these "hills" are also global. The only global "hill"/high places I know of that are global are the continents of the planet. There is only one city on the face of the earth which actually owns vast real estate on the earth's continents.

The US Government owns vast real estate on all of the continents.

Buz writes:

6. verse 16....The ten beast kings shall come to hate the city and shall persecute her and eventually cause her destruction. (This rules out the beast as being one and the same as the city (as some responders in this thread have determined.

There are many people that would like to destroy Washington, DC.

Buz writes:

7. verse 18.....The city has at some time or other been known to actually have exercised ruling power over the kings of the earth.

The US has held ruling power over many nations.

Buz writes:

8. Chapter 18, verses 11-13: She is involved in all kinds of commercial things, fine things and even in the souls of men, indicative of a religious element.

The US government is involved in all kinds of commercial things and certainly tries to deal in the souls of men, witness the National Day of Prayer and the religious motto on currency and inserted into the Pledge of Allegiance.

There is little doubt that both Babylon and the Great Satan are the US symbolized by it's capital city, Washington, DC.

Edited by jar, : fix subtitle


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
This message is a reply to:
 Message 112 by Buzsaw, posted 02-19-2011 6:33 PM Buzsaw has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 117 by AZPaul3, posted 02-19-2011 11:44 PM jar has acknowledged this reply
 Message 118 by Buzsaw, posted 02-21-2011 11:34 AM jar has responded

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 114 of 126 (605449)
02-19-2011 7:29 PM


Note that way back in 2003 when I posted the OP I cited Vatican City as Mystery Babylon. Long before this I have been predicting, on the basis of this prophecy, that Vatican City will be nuked and burned up in one hour.

Much has emerged among the nations relating to fulfillment of this prophecy since I first began making this prediction.

History attests to the fact that since the 7th century when Islam began to grow, Roman Catholicism and Islam have pretty much kept one another at bay so as for neither to prevail in their attempt to impose their respective religions upon all nations.

Then the Protestant Revolution added a third faction, further reducing the ability of world conquest by religions which aspired to dominate via violence.

Lo and behold, Islam emerges as the end time religion most likely to fulfill the Revelation 18 prediction, strongly implying that Mystery Babylon, i.e. Vatican City will be destroyed in one hour via a nuclear device.

The only other possibility of fulfillment of this prophecy would be a volcanic eruption similar to that which destroyed Pompey.

Mohammed, who wrote the Qur'an and his successor disciples, who wrote the Haddith and the Sunnahs advocated that, by the sword, Islam would prevail to be the one and only religion for all nations. Since 2003, when I made this prediction, we are all aware of the fact that rogue despotic nations have either emerged or are emerging into nuclear capability.

Revelation 13 corroborates that the Mystery Babylon prophecy relates to observed phenomena happening in our time. Relation 13, along with 17 and 18 prophesy the following corroborating phenomena, never before though possible previous to our time.


    1. One world marks and numbers monetary systems replacing gold and silver.

    2. A speaking image, visible by all nations requiring worship by all nations, tribes and tongues. (Islam's prayer mandates)

    3. The beast, i.e. global government making war with Christianity. ( This is ongoing in many nations. This persecution relates to all forms of professing Christianity, including RCC Vatican adherents. Thus the beast persecutes and burns Mystery Babylon in chapter 17.

    4. The ability of all nations to view events in one location.

Other end time prophecies, such as Ezekiel, Daniel, Joel, and Zechariah, etc relating to the restoration of Israel and the armies of the nations moving into the Mid East, all corroborate the reliability of Biblical prophecy being fulfilled.

Prophecies of Israel's restoration in Ezekiel 35-39 cite the nations which will oppose Israel in the end time restoration of their nation. These are in place, being the prominent nations in the news today.

Bottom line: Much has, indeed, emerged in the last decade, relating to the likely demise of Mystery Babylon and global domination by Islamic entities who have collaborated consistently with Russia and Communism against Israel and all forms of Christianity.


BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future.
Replies to this message:
 Message 115 by jar, posted 02-19-2011 7:47 PM Buzsaw has not yet responded
 Message 116 by Dr Adequate, posted 02-19-2011 7:58 PM Buzsaw has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 29747
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 115 of 126 (605450)
02-19-2011 7:47 PM
Reply to: Message 114 by Buzsaw
02-19-2011 7:29 PM


Yet more misrepresentation of what the Bible actually says.
Still misrepresenting the Bible and the Qur'an Buz?

Give us the specific Chapter and verse Buz and we will look at each in context.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
This message is a reply to:
 Message 114 by Buzsaw, posted 02-19-2011 7:29 PM Buzsaw has not yet responded

  
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 15984
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 4.2


Message 116 of 126 (605451)
02-19-2011 7:58 PM
Reply to: Message 114 by Buzsaw
02-19-2011 7:29 PM


Note that way back in 2003 when I posted the OP I cited Vatican City as Mystery Babylon. Long before this I have been predicting, on the basis of this prophecy, that Vatican City will be nuked and burned up in one hour.

Much has emerged among the nations relating to fulfillment of this prophecy ...

Apart, of course, from the prophecy being fulfilled in any way whatsoever.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 114 by Buzsaw, posted 02-19-2011 7:29 PM Buzsaw has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 120 by Buzsaw, posted 02-21-2011 11:50 AM Dr Adequate has not yet responded

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 3428
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006


Message 117 of 126 (605462)
02-19-2011 11:44 PM
Reply to: Message 113 by jar
02-19-2011 6:55 PM


Re: Mystery Babylon is DC
What about Peoria, Illinois, home of that big world-wide nasty giant Caterpillar Inc.?

Oooo, maybe Microsoft! By-by Redmond!


This message is a reply to:
 Message 113 by jar, posted 02-19-2011 6:55 PM jar has acknowledged this reply

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 118 of 126 (605645)
02-21-2011 11:34 AM
Reply to: Message 113 by jar
02-19-2011 6:55 PM


Re: DC Fails On All Counts.
jar writes:

Buzsaw writes:

jar writes:

See Message 103.

Washington, DC is the city that most closely matches the prophecy.

These two messages are bare one line assertions. You need to show how Washington DC meets each criteria on the list.

Well, let's look at your examples based on quote mining.

Buz writes:

l. Sits on "many waters" (verse 1) which are interpreted in verse 15
as peoples, nations and tongues. So this city owns property all over the planet.

The US Government owns property all over the world.

Please cite how Washington owns real estate in all nations, as is the case with Vatican City/The RCC.

quote:
The Catholic Church has numerous assets, including a vast amount of real estate. It owns more land globally than any other organization on the planet,

jar writes:

Buz writes:

2. Verse 2.....has had illicit dealings with the kings of the earth, indicative of being known for involvement around the earth with a lot of political activity.

the US government has a tradition of illicit dealings with foreign governments like the Iran Contra deals and the overthrow of democratically elected leaders and support of terrorists.

By and large, the US government has had legitimate protocol diplomatic relations with the nations of the world. Not so when the religious popes and bishops of Vatican City once essentially ruled the prominent European nations of the Middle/Medieval Ages.

jar writes:

Buz writes:

3. Verse 4....Some prominent colors visible around the city and her foreign properties are red, purple and gold as well as lavish and expensive things like precious stones, etc. In other words, known for a lot of fancy stuff and glitter.

US Embassies are known for their lavish furnishings. The US is known for style over substance and lack of taste.

Gong! Your response is a non-sequitur, having nothing to do with the prominent colors and extent of lavish furnishings observed in Vatican City. What US diplomat sits on a golden throne, embellished with precious stones? What diplomats wear scarlet robes as the Cardinals of Vatican City do? What assemblies in the embassies have purple drapes bordered with gold trim, etc?

jar writes:

Buz writes:

4. verse 6....Involved with some nasty stuff like causing the death of Christians to the extent of being "drunken" with their blood.

The US has a history of very nasty stuff, overthrowing governments, causing the deaths of believers and non-believers alike, like vetoing the condemnation of Israel building settlements in Palestine.

Another non-sequitur. Traditionally, the US has engaged in wars for the purpose of freedom of our own citizens and those of other nations.

Wars have been with the nations throughout recorded history, most of which involve loss of innocent lives.

OTO, religious Vatican City, like Islam has a history of holocaust perpetrated upon evangelical Christians.

jar writes:

Buz writes:

5. verse 3......Sits upon a descriptive metaphoric "beast" whose 7 heads are seven hills/mountains/geological locations and whose 10 horns are ten kings/kingdoms.
Note here that she sits among the nations so imo, one must assume that these "hills" are also global. The only global "hill"/high places I know of that are global are the continents of the planet. There is only one city on the face of the earth which actually owns vast real estate on the earth's continents.

The US Government owns vast real estate on all of the continents.

Again, how many and which nations does our government actually own real estate, globally, to the extent that Vatican City/RCC does?

jar writes:

Buz writes:

6. verse 16....The ten beast kings shall come to hate the city and shall persecute her and eventually cause her destruction. (This rules out the beast as being one and the same as the city (as some responders in this thread have determined.

There are many people that would like to destroy Washington, DC.

Mmm, perhaps in the past, more so than now, being that our Obama regime has thrown Israel and other allies under the bus and cow-towed to Islamic entities.

jar writes:

Buz writes:

7. verse 18.....The city has at some time or other been known to actually have exercised ruling power over the kings of the earth.

The US has held ruling power over many nations.

Not so, to the extent of the Middle Ages. The WWII nations of Europe and others like the Pacific Isles and Japan have been liberated, unlike the intents of Vatican City in medieval times.

jar writes:

Buz writes:

8. Chapter 18, verses 11-13: She is involved in all kinds of commercial things, fine things and even in the souls of men, indicative of a religious element.

The US government is involved in all kinds of commercial things and certainly tries to deal in the souls of men, witness the National Day of Prayer and the religious motto on currency and inserted into the Pledge of Allegiance.

By and large the US has been the bastion for religious freedom as per the Constitution and Bill of Rights. Vatican City's history has been just the opposite.

jar writes:

There is little doubt that both Babylon and the Great Satan are the US symbolized by it's capital city, Washington, DC.

GONG, on all counts. Nice try. Nothing, whatsoever, comes close to Vatican City, as described in the great prophecy of Mystery Babylon, corroborated by so much other which we are observing on the global scene.


BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 113 by jar, posted 02-19-2011 6:55 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 119 by New Cat's Eye, posted 02-21-2011 11:44 AM Buzsaw has responded
 Message 122 by jar, posted 02-21-2011 12:20 PM Buzsaw has not yet responded
 Message 123 by ringo, posted 02-21-2011 12:33 PM Buzsaw has not yet responded

  
New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11839
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 119 of 126 (605647)
02-21-2011 11:44 AM
Reply to: Message 118 by Buzsaw
02-21-2011 11:34 AM


Re: DC Fails On All Counts.
Please cite how Washington owns real estate in all nations, as is the case with Vatican City/The RCC.

Embassies.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 118 by Buzsaw, posted 02-21-2011 11:34 AM Buzsaw has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 121 by Buzsaw, posted 02-21-2011 12:03 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 120 of 126 (605651)
02-21-2011 11:50 AM
Reply to: Message 116 by Dr Adequate
02-19-2011 7:58 PM


Looking For Adequate Falsification Here
Dr Adequate writes:

Note that way back in 2003 when I posted the OP I cited Vatican City as Mystery Babylon. Long before this I have been predicting, on the basis of this prophecy, that Vatican City will be nuked and burned up in one hour.

Much has emerged among the nations relating to fulfillment of this prophecy ...

Apart, of course, from the prophecy being fulfilled in any way whatsoever.

How about you doing the good EvC work of falsifying my stuff, adequately, point by point, Dr Adequate?


BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 116 by Dr Adequate, posted 02-19-2011 7:58 PM Dr Adequate has not yet responded

  
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