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Author Topic:   Belief Statements - Robinrohan
AdminAsgara
Administrator
Posts: 2073
From: The Universe
Joined: 10-11-2003


Message 1 of 99 (337571)
08-02-2006 11:24 PM


An addition to our newest column "Belief Statements." The latest article in our column appears below, "Robinrohan" or you can click here to view in a separate window. If the subject interests you, please feel free to begin a discussion in this thread.

If you would like us to host your belief statement, please contact AdminAsgara.

Edited by AdminAsgara, : No reason given.


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Faith
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Posts: 26285
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 2 of 99 (337585)
08-03-2006 2:28 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by AdminAsgara
08-02-2006 11:24 PM


Robin's journey to nihilism
I agree with you that much of creation appears to be haphazard and accidental. I can certainly appreciate design in life forms, however, where the intricacies are astonishing; but in the vast universe and even in earthly landscapes I don't see it: it all looks to me like a pile of rubble. Beauty comes through anyway, but mostly it appears like a lot of tumble-down ruins. I think it was C.S. Lewis who first brought this to my attention, but I don't remember where or his exact words, something about how creation looks like a great thing gone bad. That is how it looks to me. Eventually I understood it all in terms of the Fall.

Good story, Robin. I always enjoy your writing, and you made a good case for nihilism. I happen to know that everything that happens is not an accident but I understand how it looks that way.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


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iano
Member (Idle past 711 days)
Posts: 6164
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 3 of 99 (337689)
08-03-2006 12:04 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by AdminAsgara
08-02-2006 11:24 PM


A while before I became a Christian I was doing some work around the house and went to grab a step ladder and noticed a spider in the process of weaving a web in the ladder frame. Not a very big spider and not a very big web. He had the radial elements in place and was doing his thing forming perfect little rectangles by placing rungs on his own little ladder.

As I looked the wind blew and rattled the structure and the spider, who was about land the other end of a rung to form another perfect rectangle involving the rung below got disturbed (or confused) and landed his line on the connection point of the rung below forming a 60/30 or thereabouts triangle. I left him at it and went and did something else. When I came back he had finished and there was his little error surrounded by lots of near perfect rectangles. He had had similar problems elsewhere on the web I observed: an imperfection here another there. But all in all an admirable piece of work.

I got to thinking about the mechanisms involved which enabled that web. Not a perfect mechansim, for there was error it wasn't picking up. But on the whole it was impressive; the measuring technique to space the rungs out consistantly and in a pattern (being compared against a pre-set programme with an picture in mind: closer at the bottom, less close as you travel up the ladder), the feedback loop which gave the ability to shift back after an error so as not to go hopelessly off course, the devices which enabled the laying out of cable, the cutting and fixing to the spokes. The sensory inputs into the brain which kept the whole thing going. The mechanisms that moved the legs in the delicately busy but ruthlessly coordinated fashion they were moving in....

I didn't think 'God' nor did I think 'accident'. Those thoughts never arose, But I did leave the ladder undistrubed for number of days - until the reverance at that wonderstruck reflection wore off and callous I became again.

Patently, if God exists he is of such magnitude that it would require him to come to reveal himself to us. For we could not hope to stand back far enough to see him. Flies on an elephants rump we would be


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robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 4 of 99 (337706)
08-03-2006 1:10 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by iano
08-03-2006 12:04 PM


I didn't think 'God' nor did I think 'accident'. Those thoughts never arose, But I did leave the ladder undistrubed for number of days - until the reverance at that wonderstruck reflection wore off and callous I became again.

Well, admittedly, that that spider could evolve to do that is mind-boggling. The whole theory of evolution is mind-boggling.

ABE: I hope you liked the automotive metaphor, iano.

Edited by robinrohan, : No reason given.


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iano
Member (Idle past 711 days)
Posts: 6164
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 5 of 99 (337742)
08-03-2006 3:04 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by robinrohan
08-03-2006 1:10 PM


Well, admittedly, that that spider could evolve to do that is mind-boggling. The whole theory of evolution is mind-boggling.

I'm sure all the finely honed ToE arguments are fascinating in an abstract way but it is when you look at a spider doing what it does that a serious question mark might arise in your head. Not mind boggling - just impossible. Not mathematically impossible of course, perhaps not genetically impossible. Just plain, good old fashioned: impossible.

A creator is a falling-off-a-log good fit in comparison. To easy perhaps.

ABE: I hope you liked the automotive metaphor, iano.

I am honoured at the nod in my direction. Proud in fact


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Modulous
Member
Posts: 7429
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 6 of 99 (337756)
08-03-2006 4:03 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by iano
08-03-2006 12:04 PM


Spinning that web
I'm not trying to prove its possible to you, but thought you might find (if you hadn't already) the NetSpinner program to be interesting. They started building actual 'spiders' which is also quite interesting.
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working out eating chips
Member (Idle past 1066 days)
Posts: 1623
Joined: 01-12-2004


Message 7 of 99 (337772)
08-03-2006 4:58 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by AdminAsgara
08-02-2006 11:24 PM


Thank you
Hi, I recently discovered your viewpoint I believe yesterday or the day before. I believe it is one of the few bright points left of this website.

Neglecting a few honored individuals most people here don't really reason or think that hard at all... At least they're trying.

Well, the reason I'm replying is that I also adhere to absurdism. I find your case remarkable because usually one is left with two choices:

1. Suicide
2. Finding a purpose for oneself.

You have no purpose and you obviously have not committed suicide...

Have you thought about the validity of existentialism? Or does it seem to you that creating a purpose for oneself is foolish. (For those of you that don't know Le Petit Prince is a good primer for this.)

After I read a thread of yours mocking "moral atheists" (lol) I enquired about your views to jar. I asked him if you considered existentialism. He said you taught it.

The following proof I created for my Argument for Altruism

quote:
Existentialism is the doctrine that we do not know why we exist, all we can know for sure is that we exist. This makes our purpose undefined. One defines one's own life by giving oneself a purpose.

p1: Man defines his purpose in life
p2: Purpose is unique to the individual
p3: All purposes are equal

This is valid and truth preserving logic. However, it is my belief that the purpose to do good for others is the highest of all purposes.


Your reasoning may understandably be "All purposes are equal, because purposes are of a subjective nature due to value" (equally meaningless) which is truth preserving but the last sentence from my excerpt of my Argument segues into another important point of my beliefs.

If I did not believe in a God I would be of the same view as you are. I however probably would not last as you have (I would have chosen choice 1 by then).

I cannot reason my belief in God (I am devising a revolutionary advancement to the teleological argument which I will be developing further after next week is over).

For now as it is I must be granted my belief in God without a foundation of reason.

(I keep getting phone calls neglecting me from this post which I consider "matters of consequence" as the men did in Le Petit Prince, forgive me if the remainder of this post seems misguided, I will have to remember where I was)

I should be more specific in my belief in God, I adhere to christianity. I accept Jesus Christ as God not because of his actions but because of his words. I cannot dismiss any statement made by Christ.

Because of my belief that Christ's words are true, naturally I agree that human life is valuable. We are dealing with subjectives here but it leads me to my last point.

I will illustrate my point through one of the last statements made in my Argument for Altruism

quote:
Man must rise above to a divine purpose, a purpose every man must realize. Not for a reward or punishment but simply for the well-being of others.

Altruism is the greatest of purposes IMO it rises above any other equally meaningless purpose.

For even the Little Prince made note that the Lamplighter was to be respected above the Business man and the King etc. for the Lamplighter's purpose was for others, not himself.

Let be known that the only reason I can even begin to make these statements is because my God blessed me with (communicated) guidelines for how to live because he was a man.

I was more depressed before rather than now with the state of existence, I dismissed even altruism because "all purposes are equal" but I realized for my self that altruism is to be valued higher. Those that do for humanity and neglect themselves are highest among men. This may be a subjective revelation but it was a revelation (spurred by the Lamplighter line actually).

So I exist because I was able to realize a greater calling above even my secondary purpose "truth seeking".

God cannot be comprehended.
Logic dies to God.
Ask God why this(this particular existence)? There is no reason.
God cannot be described. All we (those that believe in a God) can know for sure is that God exists. That is it.

Thanks alot for posting that, contrary to your belief I feel there is a reason you're here you are unique here and the belief needed to be stated.


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robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 8 of 99 (337784)
08-03-2006 5:40 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by working out eating chips
08-03-2006 4:58 PM


Re: Thank you
Outstanding post, messenjah of one. It deserves a thoughtful reply, and I will attempt that as soon as I can.
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RAZD
Member
Posts: 18962
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 9 of 99 (337799)
08-03-2006 7:04 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by working out eating chips
08-03-2006 4:58 PM


purpose, altruism
Well, the reason I'm replying is that I also adhere to absurdism. I find your case remarkable because usually one is left with two choices:

1. Suicide
2. Finding a purpose for oneself.

A false dichotomy. There are other "choices".

Third choice: live. Just live.

Fourth choice: just be in the moment (the buddhist concept). etc.

"Finding a purpose" implies (a) thinking you need one, and (2) thinking it is important to the grand scheme of things. Faulty logic. Most "life" doesn't think, it just {is}. In fact if we look at {the general purpose of life} as defined by most life forms - with brains or not - we can conclude that the purpose of life is life: that is the product of life, and what is accomplished by high levels of diversity sufficient to ensure that {some kind of life} survives whatever accidental disasters occur in the course of time.

My personal opinion is that many people lead lives with no real self defined purpose, and just go from day to day doing the same thing over and over, letting chance make their decisions. This is true whether one thinks one is religious or atheist.

Thinking you have a purpose does not give you one - you have to act on it.

Altruism is the greatest of purposes IMO ...

Altruism is important to humans because humans are social creatures - it is a necessary form of behavior for a group interacting species that some do things for others whether they get immediate reward, delayed reward or no reward.

robinrohan, msg 1 writes:

We are products of a mindless universe. We are here, hanging about, trying to figure out what it's all about - and then we come to understand that it's not about anything at all.

The (observed?) "purpose" of the universe is to {be}. It doesn't need a mind to do that.

Everyone confronts their reality differently.

Enjoy.


Join the effort to unravel {AIDSHIV} with Team EvC! (click)

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand

RebelAAmericanOZen[Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


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working out eating chips
Member (Idle past 1066 days)
Posts: 1623
Joined: 01-12-2004


Message 10 of 99 (337803)
08-03-2006 7:19 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by RAZD
08-03-2006 7:04 PM


Re: purpose, altruism
This is true there are those that are "purposeless"

Those that cognitively understand this choice and are "happy", those that don't(not a choice, no free will), and those that don't care "wanton".

I neglected stating "the purposeless" because I believe that this state is tragic.

quote:
Most "life" doesn't think, it just {is}. In fact if we look at {the general purpose of life} as defined by most life forms - with brains or not - we can conclude that the purpose of life is life

So in short, a human being would not utilize his/her cognitive ability . That is essentially what makes us human. Do you understand the magnitude of a life as this.
Thus we cannot be differentiated from the rest of the animal kingdom.

What a great misuse of potential. I hope you realize the magnitude of this state of existence.

THIS EXISTENCE IS MOST OFT LED BY THOSE THAT HAVE PHYSIOLOGICAL LIMITS. i.e. lack of Cognitive ability

Edited by -messenjah of one, : life comment

Edited by -messenjah of one, : clarification

Edited by -messenjah of one, : last sentence in caps

Edited by -messenjah of one, : including "lack of". took essence of point without it,


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MangyTiger
Member (Idle past 3882 days)
Posts: 989
From: Leicester, UK
Joined: 07-30-2004


Message 11 of 99 (337804)
08-03-2006 7:19 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by RAZD
08-03-2006 7:04 PM


Off topic question
Most "life" doesn't think, it just {is}. In fact if we look at {the general purpose of life} as defined by most life forms

What are the curly brackets meant to convey? They serve no purpose that I can discern.


Oops! Wrong Planet
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robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 12 of 99 (337807)
08-03-2006 7:25 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by RAZD
08-03-2006 7:04 PM


Re: purpose, altruism
A false dichotomy. There are other "choices".

The only other choice is the religous choice.


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Replies to this message:
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RAZD
Member
Posts: 18962
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 13 of 99 (337813)
08-03-2006 7:38 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by robinrohan
08-03-2006 7:25 PM


Re: purpose, altruism
bacteria are religious?
This message is a reply to:
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robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 14 of 99 (337815)
08-03-2006 7:43 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by RAZD
08-03-2006 7:38 PM


Re: purpose, altruism
bacteria are religious?

Oh, I thought we were talking about human beings.


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Faith
Member
Posts: 26285
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 15 of 99 (337822)
08-03-2006 8:38 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by robinrohan
08-03-2006 7:25 PM


Re: purpose, altruism
The only other choice is the religous choice.

Other than suicide or finding your own purpose?

I think RAZD is right, the other option is just living or just not thinking about it much.

I don't remember giving much thought to purpose in my life BC. There were things I liked to do and I tried to do them, and things I didn't like to do and I tried to avoid them, and things I knew I must do so I did them, and that was about it for purpose. Just following one's own inclinations isn't exactly finding a purpose is it? Or is it? Meaning is another thing, however. I did want meaning and couldn't find any of that either.


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