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Author Topic:   RAZD - Building Blocks of Life
RAZD
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Posts: 18259
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 16 of 30 (270414)
12-17-2005 9:59 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by Matt P
12-16-2005 3:19 PM


Re: text translation issue?
most researchers in the field refer to these compounds as "abiotic" or "prebiotic" compounds.

Sounds like they reached the same conclusion about confusing organic with living products ... not too surprising. Prebiotic works for me, being essentially the same derivation as my wording.

"Meteors" specifically refers to a body entering the Earth's atmosphere prior to landing.

Meteor\meteorite, again no biggie for me. The '-ites' have landed. Perhaps an effect of trying for layman ease and got a little loose.

Early models have assumed a "reducing" atmosphere ...

I intentionally changed this as most people wouldn't know that a reducing atmosphere was acidic by comparison. guilty. :D

... this line of evidence has been pretty much dismissed, ... However, this just pushes the origin back to 3.5 Ga, where we have less controversial evidence for life.

So much for that then. The 3.5 Ga data .... (google gooogle goooogle)

http://www.uni-muenster.de/GeoPalaeontologie/Palaeo/Palbot/seite1.html

The oldest fossils are the approximately 3.465 Billion-year-old (Ga) microfossils from the Apex Chert, Australia. These are colonies of cyanobacteria (formerly called blue-green algae) which built real reefs.

Still archaea, link to thermophiles lessened, still need to have evolved somewhere ... ah sweet mystery of life eh?

Thanks.


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RAZD
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Posts: 18259
From: the other end of the sidewalk
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Message 17 of 30 (270639)
12-18-2005 10:00 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by AdminAsgara
12-03-2005 10:16 PM


Fixes - text translation issue and some changes
I have made some revisions to take into account the comments from MattP (Message 15) and to (hopefully) take care of the black diamonds.

See e-mail for revisions.

(You might want to turn off autoformat to prevent alteration to the file)


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we are limited in our ability to understand
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RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
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This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by AdminAsgara, posted 12-03-2005 10:16 PM AdminAsgara has responded

Replies to this message:
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AdminAsgara
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Message 18 of 30 (270646)
12-18-2005 10:29 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by RAZD
12-18-2005 10:00 PM


Re: Fixes - text translation issue and some changes
Change made, please check over.

Original version available in link at bottom of original post.


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    This message is a reply to:
     Message 17 by RAZD, posted 12-18-2005 10:00 PM RAZD has responded

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    RAZD
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    Posts: 18259
    From: the other end of the sidewalk
    Joined: 03-14-2004
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    Message 19 of 30 (270649)
    12-18-2005 10:37 PM
    Reply to: Message 18 by AdminAsgara
    12-18-2005 10:29 PM


    Re: Fixes - text translation issue and some changes
    looks good. the diamonds are gone on my machine.
    This message is a reply to:
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    RAZD
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    Posts: 18259
    From: the other end of the sidewalk
    Joined: 03-14-2004
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    Message 20 of 30 (270651)
    12-18-2005 10:38 PM
    Reply to: Message 15 by Matt P
    12-16-2005 3:19 PM


    Re: text translation issue?
    thanks for the input. see the changes made and tell me what you think.
    This message is a reply to:
     Message 15 by Matt P, posted 12-16-2005 3:19 PM Matt P has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 21 by Matt P, posted 12-19-2005 5:47 PM RAZD has responded

      
    Matt P
    Member (Idle past 2159 days)
    Posts: 106
    From: Tampa FL
    Joined: 03-18-2005


    Message 21 of 30 (270887)
    12-19-2005 5:47 PM
    Reply to: Message 20 by RAZD
    12-18-2005 10:38 PM


    Re: text translation issue?
    Hi RAZD, looks great! Also, if you want another reference for the phosphorus work instead of Reddy 2004, you can cite:
    Pasek, M.A., and Lauretta, D.S., 2005, Astrobiology 5(4), 515-535. Let me know if you would like a copy of this article as a .pdf.

    Again, great job!


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 20 by RAZD, posted 12-18-2005 10:38 PM RAZD has responded

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     Message 23 by RAZD, posted 12-22-2005 6:33 PM Matt P has not yet responded

        
    Brad McFall
    Member (Idle past 2416 days)
    Posts: 3428
    From: Ithaca,NY, USA
    Joined: 12-20-2001


    Message 22 of 30 (271110)
    12-20-2005 12:24 PM
    Reply to: Message 1 by AdminAsgara
    12-03-2005 5:17 PM


    Is life in outer or inner space placed?
    quote:
    The principle of the stability of chemical substance of the
    supramolecular structures of tissues makes it possible to understand the
    causes of
    the practically unlimited evolution of the biological world from the
    perspective of the Second Law in its classical definition.
    The full text of paper at: http://www.endeav.org/evolut/text/ta/ta.htm


    quote:
    http://www.bio.net/bionet/mm/btk-mca/1998-November/001936.html

    quote:

    A number of available reviews relate to the Second Law and the origins and evolution of life. Some of them, however, contain a great deal of confusion. For instance, “Cosmic Ancestry” (http://www.panspermia.org/index.htm) in “The Second Law of Thermodynamics” contains quite a principled few mistakes. It would therefore appear to be extremely important to emphasize the need to use classical studies, especially where younger researchers are concerned.
    I will confine myself merely to the thermodynamic - the thermostatic theory of aging. The theory relies on hierarchical thermodynamics or macrothermodynamics (structural thermodynamics) which investigates quasi-closed systems over limited time frames. The fundamentals of the theory are spelt out in my book “Thermodynamic Theory of Evolution of Living Beings”.


    quote:
    http://www.endeav.org/evolut/text/ta/ta.htm

    http://www.panspermia.org/index.htm

    “A scientific solution is possible if Earth’s biosphere is open to biological input from elsewhere.”

    quote:
    http://www.panspermia.org/thirdalt.htm

    If I understand Dr. Georgi Gladyshev correctly classical science ALREADY contained a potential solution, right here on Earth. I also see no need to call in the seeds of change when one simply needs to wait for the other shoe to drop. Even if or when we find microbial life off of Earth the problem of tracking the trajectory through less limited time frames will continue to remain as it does today only we will have the extra burden of a loss of subjective morphological intuition we possess for creatures with Bauplanes more similar to ours. In this case, for instance Will Provine recently announced a conversation he had with Lyn Margulis in which Will came to the opinion that we might NEVER be able to construct a tree of life for the first few years on Earth and that he was OK with that. If there are microbes around the solarsystem and beyond we will be in the same position then as we are now with the need for a deductive biogeography. If classical science already provides the means to ends that do not need special pleading then I see no reason why they should not be used.

    This website had contrasted “macroevolutionary progress” and a sorting out of preEarth ancestral area biogeography into post modern frames in mind paragonally. But if indeed macrothermodynamics has truth IN IT, then while there may indeed be some kind of “progress” that is often down played in most pedagogy on the structure of evolutionary theory today, there is NO such clear discrimination available TO THE CONTINUUM binding life reproductively (necessarily). The “solution” could be as simple as the expanded space origin hypothesizes but from the complexity of biodiversity already ON (Mother) Earth I see no a priori reason to suspect that empirics must give a solute other than those subject to hierarchical thermodynamics, in which class, the sorting must only be denoted to the primary parts rather than the total issue of genetic homogeneity in a whatever it is heterogenous crossing of Earth oribits over time.


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    RAZD
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    Posts: 18259
    From: the other end of the sidewalk
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    Message 23 of 30 (271807)
    12-22-2005 6:33 PM
    Reply to: Message 21 by Matt P
    12-19-2005 5:47 PM


    additional reference
    yes please. and thanks again for the help.
    This message is a reply to:
     Message 21 by Matt P, posted 12-19-2005 5:47 PM Matt P has not yet responded

      
    RAZD
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    Posts: 18259
    From: the other end of the sidewalk
    Joined: 03-14-2004
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    Message 24 of 30 (303690)
    04-12-2006 8:54 PM


    Bump
    For those interested in the probability of life as we know it ...
    Replies to this message:
     Message 25 by Phat, posted 07-02-2006 2:29 AM RAZD has responded

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 9284
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.8


    Message 25 of 30 (328184)
    07-02-2006 2:29 AM
    Reply to: Message 24 by RAZD
    04-12-2006 8:54 PM


    Re: Bump
    whats up with this "bump" stuff? :rolleyes:

    For those who are interested, here is RAZD's opening statement:


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 24 by RAZD, posted 04-12-2006 8:54 PM RAZD has responded

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    RAZD
    Member
    Posts: 18259
    From: the other end of the sidewalk
    Joined: 03-14-2004
    Member Rating: 3.4


    Message 26 of 30 (328214)
    07-02-2006 7:41 AM
    Reply to: Message 25 by Phat
    07-02-2006 2:29 AM


    Re: Bump
    whats up with this "bump" stuff?

    'bump' brings old topics back into the current posting listings

    I 'bump' a topic when someone is discussing a similar theme on another thread where it is off topic. In this case another questioning of abiogenesis 'probabilities' ...


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    RAZD
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    Posts: 18259
    From: the other end of the sidewalk
    Joined: 03-14-2004
    Member Rating: 3.4


    Message 27 of 30 (370153)
    12-16-2006 3:10 AM


    NEWS UPDATE: WILD2 Thing(s?)
    From

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/story/0,,1972955,00.html

    quote:
    Stardust may be basis of life on Earth
    Alok Jha
    Friday December 15, 2006
    Guardian Unlimited

    Nasa launched Stardust to test the standard concept that comets are just dirty balls of snow left over from the early solar system. It was sent to examine the comet Wild 2 in February 1999.

    The probe flew through the tail of dust and debris the comet had emitted and, after travelling 2.88bn miles, returned to Earth earlier this year with a payload of thousands of tiny particles from the comet.

    To their surprise, scientists found a huge range of minerals in Wild 2. In particular, the samples showed evidence of aluminium- and calcium-rich minerals that could only have formed at very high temperatures, presumably close to the sun.

    Wild 2 also seems to have some of the complex organic molecules that could be precursors to life.

    "It's a fairly widely held belief that comets may have played a key role in delivering organics to the early Earth and played a role in getting life started," said Scott Sandford of Nasa's Ames research centre, who led one of the research teams.

    When the Earth first formed, it would have been a molten body so hot that any organic materials already present on it would have perished. Any complex organic materials made in space would have had to arrive on the young Earth well after the planet had cooled down. "A lot of our findings support this interesting idea, which is that comets played this key role," said Dr Sandford.

    "We don't know how life got started on the Earth. But one would presume that the more complex the things you drop on the Earth, the easier it might be for life to get started. We know that comets and asteroids deliver this sort of material."

    Of most interest are the types of organic molecules seen in laboratory simulations of the early solar system, in which scientists irradiate ices containing dirt and dust. These produce a lot of organic compounds including amino acids; Wild 2 seems to contain similar molecules.

    Dr Sandford said: "The possible presence of this material in the comet is exciting because it suggests that many [more] of these kinds of compounds that are biologically interesting may well be there."


    "Every time it rains, it rains ...
    bennies from heaven ..."

    Now I need to find a journal article that tells me what all those organic molecules were.

    Enjoy.

    Edited by RAZD, : because I can


    Join the effort to unravel {AIDS/HIV} {Protenes} and {Cancer} with Team EvC! (click)

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    RebelAAmericanOZen[Deist
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    RAZD
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    From: the other end of the sidewalk
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    Message 28 of 30 (441019)
    12-15-2007 9:55 PM


    More non-earth organics
    Building blocks of life formed on Mars

    quote:
    Organic compounds contain carbon and hydrogen and form the building blocks of all life on Earth. By analyzing organic material and minerals in the Martian meteorite Allan Hills 84001, scientists at the Carnegie Institution's Geophysical Laboratory have shown for the first time that building blocks of life formed on Mars early in its history. Previously, scientists have thought that organic material in ALH 84001 was brought to Mars by meteorite impacts or more speculatively originated from ancient Martian microbes.

    "Organic material occurs within tiny spheres of carbonate minerals in both the Martian and Earth rocks," explained Andrew Steele, lead author of the study. "We found that the organic material is closely associated with the iron oxide mineral magnetite, which is the key to understanding how these compounds formed."

    The research is published in Meteoritics & Planetary Science http://meteoritics.org/index.htm


    quote:
    Comprehensive imaging and Raman spectroscopy of carbonate globules from Martian meteorite ALH 84001 and a terrestrial analogue from Svalbard
    A. STEELE, M. D. FRIES, H. E. F. AMUNDSEN, B. O. MYSEN, M. L. FOGEL, M. SCHWEIZER, and N. Z. BOCTOR

    We report a comprehensive imaging study including confocal microRaman spectroscopy, scanning electron microscopy (SEM), and 3-D extended focal imaging light microscopy of carbonate globules throughout a depth profile of the Martian meteorite Allan Hills (ALH) 84001 and similar objects in mantle peridotite xenoliths from the Bockfjorden volcanic complex (BVC), Svalbard. Carbonate and iron oxide zoning in ALH 84001 is similar to that seen in BVC globules. Hematite appears to be present in all ALH 84001 carbonate-bearing assemblages except within a magnesite outer rim found in some globules. Macromolecular carbon (MMC) was found in intimate association with magnetite in both ALH 84001 and BVC carbonates. The MMC synthesis mechanism appears similar to established reactions within the Fe-C-O system. By inference to a terrestrial analogue of mantle origin (BVC), these results appear to represent the first measurements of the products of an abiotic MMC synthesis mechanism in Martian samples. Furthermore, the ubiquitous but heterogeneous distribution of hematite throughout carbonate globules in ALH 84001 may be partly responsible for some of the wide range in measured oxygen isotopes reported in previous studies. Using BVC carbonates as a suitable analogue, we postulate that a low temperature hydrothermal model of ALH 84001 globule formation is most likely, although alteration (decarbonation) of a subset of globules possibly occurred during a later impact event.


    They don't say what the molecules are that they found.

    Thanks LindaLou for your link

    Enjoy.

    Edited by RAZD, : " marks corrected


    we are limited in our ability to understand
    by our ability to understand
    RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
    ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
    to share.


    Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

      
    RAZD
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    Posts: 18259
    From: the other end of the sidewalk
    Joined: 03-14-2004
    Member Rating: 3.4


    Message 29 of 30 (504898)
    04-04-2009 10:22 AM
    Reply to: Message 1 by AdminAsgara
    12-03-2005 5:17 PM


    missing text?
    The text of this column seems to be missing. I still have the original if you need it.

    Thanks


    we are limited in our ability to understand
    by our ability to understand
    Rebel American Zen Deist
    ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
    to share.


    • • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 1 by AdminAsgara, posted 12-03-2005 5:17 PM AdminAsgara has not yet responded

      
    RAZD
    Member
    Posts: 18259
    From: the other end of the sidewalk
    Joined: 03-14-2004
    Member Rating: 3.4


    Message 30 of 30 (512868)
    06-21-2009 9:42 PM
    Reply to: Message 1 by AdminAsgara
    12-03-2005 5:17 PM


    text not showing? Admins?
    I can furnish the text if it has become lost, or you can access an HTML version at:

    http://razd.evcforum.net/Building-Blocks.htm

    Enjoy.


    we are limited in our ability to understand
    by our ability to understand
    Rebel American Zen Deist
    ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
    to share.


    • • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

    This message is a reply to:
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