Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 114 (8789 total)
Current session began: 
Page Loaded: 09-21-2017 8:23 AM
336 online now:
Aussie, Joe T, Pressie, Stile, Tangle (5 members, 331 visitors)
Chatting now:  Chat room empty
Newest Member: Porkncheese
Post Volume:
Total: 819,207 Year: 23,813/21,208 Month: 1,778/2,468 Week: 287/822 Day: 13/67 Hour: 0/3

Announcements: Reporting debate problems OR discussing moderation actions/inactions


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Prev12
3
45Next
Author Topic:   Belief Statements - Lithodid-Man
ringo
Member
Posts: 13628
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 31 of 74 (338238)
08-06-2006 1:03 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by Faith
08-06-2006 12:33 PM


Faith writes:

Whatever number of waves was needed to completely wipe ancient Phoenician Tyre off the planet has come and gone and done the deed.

Nonsense. It's still there.

You're reading prophecy as, "Not fulfilled yet... not fulfilled yet... not fulfilled yet.... Now! It's fulfilled! Close the book before anything changes!"

Like the waves, you can't stop history wherever you want. Would you stop the story of Jesus at the crucifixion and ignore everything that happened after?


Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC
This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by Faith, posted 08-06-2006 12:33 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
MangyTiger
Member (Idle past 3883 days)
Posts: 989
From: Leicester, UK
Joined: 07-30-2004


Message 32 of 74 (338253)
08-06-2006 2:09 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by Faith
08-06-2006 12:33 PM


Whatever number of waves was needed to completely wipe ancient Phoenician Tyre off the planet has come and gone and done the deed. Whatever number of waves was needed to completely wipe ancient Phoenician Tyre off the planet has come and gone and done the deed.

And the same is true for every other ancient city state, nation and empire in the world. Rome, Athens, Sparta, Carthage, Pharonic Egypt, the Aztecs, the Incas and so many more - they've all been and gone.

BFHD.

All that's physically left of any of them is ruins.


Oops! Wrong Planet
This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by Faith, posted 08-06-2006 12:33 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by Faith, posted 08-06-2006 2:10 PM MangyTiger has not yet responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 26290
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 33 of 74 (338254)
08-06-2006 2:10 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by MangyTiger
08-06-2006 2:09 PM


The point of prophecy is to demonstrate that God is behind it all, and to teach the causes of such destruction.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by MangyTiger, posted 08-06-2006 2:09 PM MangyTiger has not yet responded

    
MangyTiger
Member (Idle past 3883 days)
Posts: 989
From: Leicester, UK
Joined: 07-30-2004


Message 34 of 74 (338259)
08-06-2006 2:34 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by Lithodid-Man
08-05-2006 4:14 AM


Re: No doubt the Tyre prophecy was fulfilled
I haven't got Google Earth (one of the untold number of things on my 'to do' list!), so maybe you can answer a quick question.

Can you get any idea of the size of this rock from Google Earth?

It's not clear to me if we're talking about a rock that's the size of a football pitch or a couple of acres or a square mile or what.


Oops! Wrong Planet
This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by Lithodid-Man, posted 08-05-2006 4:14 AM Lithodid-Man has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by jar, posted 08-06-2006 3:24 PM MangyTiger has responded

    
jar
Member
Posts: 29363
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 35 of 74 (338274)
08-06-2006 3:24 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by MangyTiger
08-06-2006 2:34 PM


Re: No doubt the Tyre prophecy was fulfilled
You can see it using just Google maps. Enter Tyre, Lebanon and then select the satellite view.

The old city of Tyre, the one that Faith claims is no more, was originally a fortified Island that today is the end of a penninsula. Alexander built the first causeway that connected the island to the mainland and since that time it has been expanded through natural and man made practices.

Exactly which rock various Fundamentalists claim fulfills the prophecy depends on which of the small little rocks they find empty at the time. If you look you can see numerous little rocks along the shoreline but none large enough to be the old fortified Tyre with walls 150 feet high.

you can see the image here

Edited by jar, : spallin


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by MangyTiger, posted 08-06-2006 2:34 PM MangyTiger has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by MangyTiger, posted 08-06-2006 5:17 PM jar has not yet responded

  
MangyTiger
Member (Idle past 3883 days)
Posts: 989
From: Leicester, UK
Joined: 07-30-2004


Message 36 of 74 (338290)
08-06-2006 5:17 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by jar
08-06-2006 3:24 PM


Re: No doubt the Tyre prophecy was fulfilled
Thanks jar.


Oops! Wrong Planet
This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by jar, posted 08-06-2006 3:24 PM jar has not yet responded

    
Lithodid-Man
Member (Idle past 460 days)
Posts: 504
From: Juneau, Alaska, USA
Joined: 03-22-2004


Message 37 of 74 (338340)
08-07-2006 5:20 AM
Reply to: Message 26 by Faith
08-05-2006 8:24 PM


Re: No doubt the Tyre prophecy was fulfilled
Faith writes:

I doubt your pastor lied. That degree of lie is just preposterous. He's not going to be denying the modern city, how could he? Anyone could easily prove him wrong if that's what he meant, so he just couldn't possibly have meant that.

Hmmm. Outside of the fact that he never mentioned the modern city at all. Outside of the fact that he told us the rock he showed was where Tyre used to be. Now as an adult I can see that it was far too small to build a city on, but it was a big rock. Not once was it mentioned that the rock was a symbol of the desolation of the ancient city that has been replaced or anything you have claimed. And just to show that he wasn't unique in this lie I searched Google for Tyre and "prophesy fulfilled" and found the following:

http://www.equip.org/free/DA151.htm

The most astonishing of Ezekiel’s predictions was that Tyre would never be rebuilt. This is singularly incredible because Tyre is strategically located on the east coast of the Mediterranean Sea. It also contains the Springs of Reselain, which pump ten million gallons of fresh water daily — enough to take care of the needs of a modern city. Yet, history records that after a succession of invasions, Tyre finally and irrevocably fell in A.D. 1291 — never to be rebuilt again. Today Tyre has been humbled to the point of becoming a place for the drying of fishermens’ nets — just as Ezekiel prophesied two-and-one-half millennia ago.

http://www.newtestamentchurch.org/html/Christian_Evidence/Bible_Prophecies.htm

All the prophecies of Ezekiel about Tyre have come true: Nebuchadnezzar destroyed the mainland city of Tyre; many nations were against Tyre; Alexander made her a bare rock and threw debris into the water to make the causeway; fishermen now spread nets over the site (there is a city of Tyre today, but it is located down the coast from the original Tyre); the old city of Tyre has never been rebuilt, even though a great freshwater spring is located at the site, providing 10,000,000 gallons of water daily. It is still an excellent site today but has never been rebuilt, although many have tried. All seven of the predictions came true in the most minute detail.(Emphasis mine)

Do you see this? Tyre would never be rebuilt. Not that the Phoenecian culture would ever rise to prominence, but that the city of Tyre would not be rebuilt. Otherwise why would they emphasize the strategic location and water supply (good place to build a city). Both of the abovementioned websites deny the existence of the modern city of Tyre. There are hundreds of such claims, most I found are just word for repeats of the above (I don't know the original sources, it is funny that so many of these sites just rip off of each other without giving credit).

Faith writes:

If he lied to that extent he'd be a delusional deranged demented disorganized psychotic beyond functioning in this world at all.

You hit the nail on the head. I agree with you 95%. The 5% disagreement is that such people not only function but succeed in this world. Sometimes making millions doing it.


Doctor Bashir: "Of all the stories you told me, which were true and which weren't?"
Elim Garak: "My dear Doctor, they're all true"
Doctor Bashir: "Even the lies?"
Elim Garak: "Especially the lies"
This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by Faith, posted 08-05-2006 8:24 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 2428 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 38 of 74 (338342)
08-07-2006 6:27 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by AdminAsgara
07-11-2006 8:51 PM


Tyre
Actually, I think the old fortress and city of Tyre was on that rock and did get destroyed. Of course, there is a city of Tyre, but my recollection from history is that the rocky area was where the king and everyone took refufe (city walls) and for a long time no one could penetrate the fortress but that someone came up with bright idea of building a land bridge out to it, and eventually conquered it so thoroughly, that it never came back.

Heck, there are some swamps in SC where thriving towns once stood before Sherman destroyed them. Just because the rocky area was beaten down doesn't mean there wasn't a town and fortress there.

Edited by randman, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by AdminAsgara, posted 07-11-2006 8:51 PM AdminAsgara has not yet responded

  
randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 2428 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 39 of 74 (338343)
08-07-2006 6:38 AM
Reply to: Message 21 by jar
08-04-2006 9:07 PM


Re: Is that all there is?
Where's your evidence Alexander the Great didn't level it?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by jar, posted 08-04-2006 9:07 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by jar, posted 08-07-2006 10:39 AM randman has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 29363
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 40 of 74 (338358)
08-07-2006 10:39 AM
Reply to: Message 39 by randman
08-07-2006 6:38 AM


Re: Is that all there is?
Pretty much the same way we know that the conquest of Canaan never happened as described in the Bible or that the flood or the Exodus never happened. The archeological evidence is still there, Alexander never claimed to have leveled it, none of the other nations or city states ever noticed it.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by randman, posted 08-07-2006 6:38 AM randman has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 41 by randman, posted 08-07-2006 6:52 PM jar has responded

  
randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 2428 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 41 of 74 (338414)
08-07-2006 6:52 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by jar
08-07-2006 10:39 AM


no evidence?
So you have no evidence for your opinion? Nothing?

Please substantiate your claim or retract it (as you guys are wont to say).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by jar, posted 08-07-2006 10:39 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by jar, posted 08-07-2006 6:55 PM randman has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 29363
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 42 of 74 (338416)
08-07-2006 6:55 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by randman
08-07-2006 6:52 PM


Re: no evidence?
Randman, that's about as silly a post as I have seen here yet and I have no intention of wasting any more time with it.

Thank you for posting.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by randman, posted 08-07-2006 6:52 PM randman has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by randman, posted 08-07-2006 7:06 PM jar has responded

  
randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 2428 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 43 of 74 (338418)
08-07-2006 7:06 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by jar
08-07-2006 6:55 PM


Re: no evidence?
Please substantiate your claims jar according to the rules. You suggested Alexander the Great did not really destroy Tyre. You offer no qualifications or elaboration, and I am calling your bluff.

Back it up or retract it.

The accounts I have read are that the mainland of Tyre was first laid waste as it was used to help build the land-bridge, so much as that in some places it was scraped down to the rock as the Macedonians searched for material to load into the sea to fill it.

Then, when the fortress of Tyre fell, Alexander's army trampled it, killing thousands and selling thousands into slavery, and that the Pheonecian empire never recovered.

But you made your claim first. Please back it up, per the rules, or retract it.

Just for clarity, I am referring not simply to the first post I replied to but your argument you have made repeatedly on this thread, such as:

'Cept of course, it never happened. Old Nebbi tried, tried valiantly for 13 years, but never succeeded. Neither did Alexander the Great 300 YEARS after the prophecy was supposedly carried out. And Tyre exists yet today

I am just asking for you to show us where Alexander the Great did not conquer and destroy Tyre and the Phoenician empire. I think Faith already addressed the point that the waves of attacks from different nations suggests that Nebi wasn't expected to totally destroy Tyre and the Phoenician empire.

Edited by randman, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by jar, posted 08-07-2006 6:55 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 44 by jar, posted 08-07-2006 7:18 PM randman has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 29363
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 44 of 74 (338422)
08-07-2006 7:18 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by randman
08-07-2006 7:06 PM


Re: no evidence?
Randman, it was still there and still a fortress in 1100 AD when the Crusaders placed it under siege. Now I expect you to pull the old "That's not the same Tyre" story that Faith tried and if so, I will simply laugh at the message just as at message that the Biblical prophecy about Tyre came true.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by randman, posted 08-07-2006 7:06 PM randman has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 45 by randman, posted 08-07-2006 7:22 PM jar has responded

  
randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 2428 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 45 of 74 (338423)
08-07-2006 7:22 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by jar
08-07-2006 7:18 PM


Re: no evidence?
No links? Just opinion?

Please. You made specific statements that Alexander the Great tried like Nebi to destroy Tyre and failed.

'Cept of course, it never happened. Old Nebbi tried, tried valiantly for 13 years, but never succeeded. Neither did Alexander the Great 300 YEARS after the prophecy was supposedly carried out.

Alexander the Great did topple Tyre, defeated it, wiped parts of clean down the rock. The ruins we see today are not considered, from what I have read, to be ruins from that time, but were later built (by the Crusaders). I don't think the Crusaders building on the same site as the Phoenicians qualifies as a revival of the Phoenician empire, but whatever floats your boat jar.

Suffice to say is that you publicly refuse to back up and substantiate a specific claim you made.

Why?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by jar, posted 08-07-2006 7:18 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 46 by jar, posted 08-07-2006 7:25 PM randman has responded

  
Prev12
3
45Next
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2015 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2017