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Author Topic:   Belief Statements - Lithodid-Man
ringo
Member
Posts: 13025
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 61 of 74 (338558)
08-08-2006 2:41 PM
Reply to: Message 60 by randman
08-08-2006 2:35 PM


Re: Hmmm...
randman writes:

It it was a kingdom and now is not, then the kingdom itself is destroyed regardless of whether the area was rendered permanently inhabitable or whatever.

By that standard, the United States were "destroyed" when they ceased to be part of the British monarchy.


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This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by randman, posted 08-08-2006 2:35 PM randman has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 62 by Jazzns, posted 08-08-2006 2:57 PM ringo has responded

  
Jazzns
Member (Idle past 1324 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 62 of 74 (338567)
08-08-2006 2:57 PM
Reply to: Message 61 by ringo
08-08-2006 2:41 PM


Re: Hmmm...
Not to mention that the 'destroyed' meant in the prophecy means physical destruction. Unless of course we abandon literalism.


Of course, biblical creationists are committed to belief in God's written Word, the Bible, which forbids bearing false witness; --AIG (lest they forget)
This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by ringo, posted 08-08-2006 2:41 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 63 by ringo, posted 08-08-2006 3:03 PM Jazzns has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13025
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 63 of 74 (338574)
08-08-2006 3:03 PM
Reply to: Message 62 by Jazzns
08-08-2006 2:57 PM


Re: Hmmm...
jazzns writes:

Unless of course we abandon literalism.

It rememds me a lot of horoscopes:

"You will suffer a serious setback."

"It's true! I hit every red light on the way to work today!"


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MangyTiger
Member (Idle past 3766 days)
Posts: 989
From: Leicester, UK
Joined: 07-30-2004


Message 64 of 74 (338652)
08-08-2006 10:13 PM
Reply to: Message 56 by randman
08-08-2006 12:26 PM


Re: Hmmm...
Mangy, did Alexander remove the former rulers and most of the former occupants or not?

Same with Nebi, it seems. Apparently, according to some here (conflicting accounts and since some like jar won't back up his account, who knows?), Nebi or someone made Tyre a Persian colony.

Making a kingdom a colony certainly suffices to destroying the former kingdom.

Holy galloping goalposts randman!

According to the site search function you have posted 9 messages prior to the one I am replying to:

  1. Message 38

    Actually, I think the old fortress and city of Tyre was on that rock and did get destroyed. Of course, there is a city of Tyre, but my recollection from history is that the rocky area was where the king and everyone took refufe (city walls) and for a long time no one could penetrate the fortress but that someone came up with bright idea of building a land bridge out to it, and eventually conquered it so thoroughly, that it never came back.

  2. Message 39

    Where's your evidence Alexander the Great didn't level it?

  3. Message 41

    So you have no evidence for your opinion? Nothing?

    Please substantiate your claim or retract it (as you guys are wont to say).


  4. Message 43

    Please substantiate your claims jar according to the rules. You suggested Alexander the Great did not really destroy Tyre. You offer no qualifications or elaboration, and I am calling your bluff.
    Back it up or retract it.

    The accounts I have read are that the mainland of Tyre was first laid waste as it was used to help build the land-bridge, so much as that in some places it was scraped down to the rock as the Macedonians searched for material to load into the sea to fill it.

    Then, when the fortress of Tyre fell, Alexander's army trampled it, killing thousands and selling thousands into slavery, and that the Pheonecian empire never recovered.

    But you made your claim first. Please back it up, per the rules, or retract it.


  5. Message 45

    Alexander the Great did topple Tyre, defeated it, wiped parts of clean down the rock.

  6. Message 47

    Most accounts I have read, just so you know, are that Alexander laid Tyre to waste and destroyed the Phoenician empire once and for all, pretty much just as the Bible predicted.

  7. Message 48

    Clearly, I think the prophecy was fulfilled. Tyre was conquered, but it took Alexander the Great and not just Nebi to cause the full, massive destruction, scraping down the rock in places, etc,....

  8. Message 53

    Nothing relevant

  9. Message 55

    Nothing relevant

Ever since you've joined the thread you've either been adamantly asserting that Alexander razed Tyre to the ground (or rock to be more precise) or asking for evidence he didn't.

Now when evidence is offered you're suddenly redefining what 'destroying a kingdom' means?

Did you think we wouldn't notice?


Oops! Wrong Planet
This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by randman, posted 08-08-2006 12:26 PM randman has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 65 by randman, posted 08-09-2006 12:40 AM MangyTiger has responded

    
randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 2311 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 65 of 74 (338660)
08-09-2006 12:40 AM
Reply to: Message 64 by MangyTiger
08-08-2006 10:13 PM


Re: Hmmm...
I asked for some substantiation and got next to nothing. My understanding stands. Alexander laid siege for months, eventually broke through, slaughtered thousands of the men of the city and sold thousands into slavery; apparently destroyed mainland Tyre and threw it into the sea, etc,...
This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by MangyTiger, posted 08-08-2006 10:13 PM MangyTiger has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 66 by MangyTiger, posted 08-09-2006 5:34 PM randman has not yet responded
 Message 69 by Archer Opteryx, posted 10-24-2006 2:29 AM randman has not yet responded

  
MangyTiger
Member (Idle past 3766 days)
Posts: 989
From: Leicester, UK
Joined: 07-30-2004


Message 66 of 74 (338758)
08-09-2006 5:34 PM
Reply to: Message 65 by randman
08-09-2006 12:40 AM


Re: Hmmm...
I asked for some substantiation and got next to nothing

So the fact that 18 years after the siege of Alexander there was a city capable of withstanding another siege which lasted over a year doesn't make you think that maybe Alexander didn't destroy Tyre?

Several people also pointed you at the history of Alexander written by Flavius Arrianus which - as a source Faith provided explicitly says - makes it clear Alexander didn't destroy Tyre.

apparently destroyed mainland Tyre

So now it's just the mainland part of Tyre that was destroyed and not the island?


Oops! Wrong Planet
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b b
Member (Idle past 3544 days)
Posts: 77
From: baton rouge, La, usa
Joined: 09-25-2005


Message 67 of 74 (358436)
10-23-2006 11:51 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by arachnophilia
08-04-2006 7:05 PM


Re: No doubt the Tyre prophecy was fulfilled
"The Roman levels of Tyre are of such importance that every effort has been made to preserve them. To determine the exact location of eariler Phoenician and Canaanite levels soundings are being made throughout the excavated areas.
Roman Tyre thus has been preserved for present and future generations to see and to admire." http://tyros.leb.net/tyre/

Roman Tyre does seem to be gone


This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by arachnophilia, posted 08-04-2006 7:05 PM arachnophilia has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 68 by kuresu, posted 10-24-2006 1:38 AM b b has not yet responded

  
kuresu
Member
Posts: 2544
From: boulder, colorado
Joined: 03-24-2006


Message 68 of 74 (358450)
10-24-2006 1:38 AM
Reply to: Message 67 by b b
10-23-2006 11:51 PM


Re: No doubt the Tyre prophecy was fulfilled
pray tell me, what of this part of the prophecy, that Tyre shall never be rebuilt?

And I will make thee like the top of a rock: thou shalt be [a place] to spread nets upon; thou shalt be built no more: for I the LORD have spoken [it], saith the Lord GOD.
(from Jar's message early on in the thread--number 10?)

as you well know, there is still a Tyre. And notice how it says that the whole of Tyre will be destroyed, not just this specific building or that section. All of Tyre. And that none of Tyre will be rebuilt. And you know something, there's a city called Tyre sitting on top of its old stomping grounds.


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Archer Opteryx
Member (Idle past 1010 days)
Posts: 1811
From: East Asia
Joined: 08-16-2006


Message 69 of 74 (358455)
10-24-2006 2:29 AM
Reply to: Message 65 by randman
08-09-2006 12:40 AM


Defense looking Tyred
randman:

My understanding stands. Alexander laid siege for months, eventually broke through, slaughtered thousands of the men of the city and sold thousands into slavery; apparently destroyed mainland Tyre and threw it into the sea, etc,...

Which is it, randman? Was Tyre destroyed through physical leveling (as you say in Message 65 and earlier posts) or annexation (as you say in Message 56)?

.

Edited by Archer Opterix, : Mood indicator.

Edited by Archer Opterix, : Brevity.


Archer

All species are transitional.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by randman, posted 08-09-2006 12:40 AM randman has not yet responded

  
Archer Opteryx
Member (Idle past 1010 days)
Posts: 1811
From: East Asia
Joined: 08-16-2006


Message 70 of 74 (358457)
10-24-2006 2:37 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by AdminAsgara
07-11-2006 8:51 PM


Thanks
Lith,

Thanks for taking the time to share this. Fascinating.

I was appalled at the way that Nazarene pastor betrayed both your parents' trust and yours.

.


Archer

All species are transitional.


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 Message 1 by AdminAsgara, posted 07-11-2006 8:51 PM AdminAsgara has not yet responded

  
iceage 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3327 days)
Posts: 1024
From: Pacific Northwest
Joined: 09-08-2003


Message 71 of 74 (358458)
10-24-2006 2:54 AM


I started reading thru this topic that rose for the ashes and found it was answered way back by NosyNed at Message 19

With enough liberal interpretation any prophecy about the destruction of any city-state anywhere in the world would be eventually spot on.

The wording on the prophecy is very specific plain language that any warrior could understand - should it not be read literally?

Of course the prophecy about Egpypt also in Ezekiel suffers from the same unfulfillment.


  
fishmicon 
Suspended Junior Member (Idle past 802 days)
Posts: 3
Joined: 12-09-2014


Message 73 of 74 (744215)
12-09-2014 4:45 AM


his buy fifa 15 coins eyes for the approaching

Edited by Admin, : Break the spam link.


    
Phat
Member
Posts: 9313
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


(1)
Message 74 of 74 (744263)
12-09-2014 12:44 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by jar
07-17-2006 11:19 AM


Thanks To Our Spammer
First of all, I would like to thank the banned spammer for reopening this topic. While our friend Lithodid-Man, a college professor from Alaska, is long gone, I was able to read some of the conversation and of course it spurred me into some replies.

jar writes:

Unfortunately, if you do live in this world, it is very likely you will eventually be confronted with evidence that refutes many widely held Christian belifes, ones like Young Earth or that there was a Great Worldwide Flood. This seems to lead to one of several reactions:
1)the person realizes that the actuality of such beliefs does not have anything to do with GOD or a belief in GOD and moves on.
2)the person abandons their Faith totally.
3)they move into a creative stance where they make up a series of possible scenarios that explain whatever troupling fact is presented to them without even considering that many of their mythical scenarios are mutually exclusive.
4)they say "Yes none of the evidence supports my beliefs but I will continue believing them anyway.
Of those options, the first and fourth seem to happen less often than the second or third.

So, what steps should Christians take to prevent options 2 & 3?


Abandoning ones faith often stems from an all or nothing mentality. As I have said before, I learn more from arguments which I disagree with than I do from arguments and positions that I agree with.

Im quite certain that I believe without evidence. The only evidence I have is my subjective beliefs.


Saying, "I don't know," is the same as saying, "Maybe."~ZombieRingo

One of the major purposes of debate is to help you hone your arguments. Yours are pretty bad. They can use all the honing they can get.~Ringo


This message is a reply to:
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