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Author Topic:   Buzsaw's Belief Statement
jar
Member
Posts: 29008
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 31 of 59 (345901)
09-01-2006 11:19 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by Buzsaw
09-01-2006 11:04 PM


No. They could have went on forever having not eaten of the forbidden tree. Their immortality would remain intact so long as they left it alone. Nothing is implied that they must disobey and eat of the tree to become mortal beings, falling from imortality.

In fact, A&E never had immortality and so did not lose it.

We agree that they were never immortal so your statement "Their immortality would remain intact so long as they left it alone" is simply nonsense. They were NOT immortal.

They were dumb ignorant animals. Saying "Nothing is implied that they must disobey and eat of the tree to become mortal beings, falling from imortality" is doubly wrong. First forbidding them from eating from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil would have NO meaning. They don't know right from wrong. It is like telling a snail not to climb the wall. It has no knowledge of right or wrong and so no way to obey. Second, they could not fall from something they never had.

Finally, Adam and Eve were NOT thrown out of the Garden of Eden because they ate from the Tree of Knowledge, but because God feared they would eat from the Tree of Life.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Archer Opteryx
Member (Idle past 1036 days)
Posts: 1811
From: East Asia
Joined: 08-16-2006


Message 32 of 59 (345956)
09-02-2006 2:50 AM
Reply to: Message 21 by ringo
09-01-2006 1:14 AM


Ringo writes of Adam and Eve:

The knowledge of good and evil gave them worth.

It also made the Bible a more interesting book.

Think what a brief, boring read it would be if they had behaved themselves.


Archer

All species are transitional.


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Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 33 of 59 (346106)
09-02-2006 6:09 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by Archer Opteryx
09-02-2006 2:50 AM


Brief And Boring?
AO writes:

Think what a brief, boring read it would be if they had behaved themselves.

Brief and boring? I doubt it. Only God knows what they and their descendents would've accomplised for the Kingdom Of God, had they been obedient.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW ---- Jesus said, "When these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads, for your redemption draws near." Luke 21:28
This message is a reply to:
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Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 34 of 59 (346107)
09-02-2006 6:12 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by jar
09-01-2006 11:19 PM


Clarification needed for response. Not comprehending your assessment of my statements.
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ringo
Member
Posts: 13181
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 35 of 59 (346221)
09-03-2006 11:39 AM
Reply to: Message 33 by Buzsaw
09-02-2006 6:09 PM


Re: Brief And Boring?
Buzsaw writes:

Only God knows what they and their descendents would've accomplised for the Kingdom Of God, had they been obedient.

What could they possibly "accomplish" in a "perfect" world?

Why would the "kingdom of God" need their "accomplishments"?


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This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by Buzsaw, posted 09-02-2006 6:09 PM Buzsaw has responded

Replies to this message:
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Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 36 of 59 (346316)
09-03-2006 11:30 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by ringo
09-03-2006 11:39 AM


Re: Brief And Boring?
1. God desires fellowship with his beings as the walks in the garden with them. Now there's none.
2. They dressed the beautiful garden and who knows what all they would have done for the planet and specifially their garden area. Most of it remains unknown to us except what is given in the record.
3. Only God knows the rest.


BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW ---- Jesus said, "When these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads, for your redemption draws near." Luke 21:28
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ringo
Member
Posts: 13181
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 37 of 59 (346319)
09-03-2006 11:47 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by Buzsaw
09-03-2006 11:30 PM


Re: Brief And Boring?
Buzsaw writes:

God desires fellowship with his beings as the walks in the garden with them. Now there's none.

Speak for yourself. :)

They dressed the beautiful garden....

That pretty much shoots down the argument that there was a "change" when they had to work for a living, doesn't it?


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This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by Buzsaw, posted 09-06-2006 9:49 AM ringo has responded

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 38 of 59 (346949)
09-06-2006 9:49 AM
Reply to: Message 37 by ringo
09-03-2006 11:47 PM


Re: Brief And Boring?
1. I suppose I should have clarified. No more daily walks in the garden with men, that is until after Christ and the indwelling Holy Spirit living within those who've taken advantage of that salvation/restoration of fellowship by receiving the savior, Jesus, son of God/redeemer. :cool:

2. Clarification: No sweat of the brow kind of hard labor preparing the ground, clearing away thorns and thistles, cursed ground et al for them in the garden.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by ringo, posted 09-03-2006 11:47 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by nator, posted 09-06-2006 10:02 AM Buzsaw has responded
 Message 40 by ringo, posted 09-06-2006 12:11 PM Buzsaw has responded

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2081 days)
Posts: 12961
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 39 of 59 (346951)
09-06-2006 10:02 AM
Reply to: Message 38 by Buzsaw
09-06-2006 9:49 AM


Re: Brief And Boring?
No thorns means no roses.
This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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ringo
Member
Posts: 13181
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 40 of 59 (346964)
09-06-2006 12:11 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by Buzsaw
09-06-2006 9:49 AM


Re: Brief And Boring?
Buzsaw writes:

No more daily walks in the garden with men....

And yet His covenant with Israel included:

quote:
Lev 26:12 And I will walk among you, and will be your God, and ye shall be my people.

Another way of putting it:

quote:
Mic 6:8 He hath showed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?

"Walking in His ways", "walking before Him", etc. is one of the most common metaphors in the Bible.

No change. No fall. :)

No sweat of the brow kind of hard labor....

quote:
Gen 2:15 And the LORD God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it.

What do you suppose "dressing it and keeping it" entailed?

-------------

Recap: Man went from walking with God to walking with God - only now the choice is his own. And he went from tending a garden to tending a garden - only now the responsibility is his own.

Sounds like a promotion, not a fall. :)


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This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by Buzsaw, posted 09-06-2006 9:14 PM ringo has responded

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 41 of 59 (347125)
09-06-2006 8:54 PM
Reply to: Message 39 by nator
09-06-2006 10:02 AM


Re: Brief And Boring?
I wasn't there but the implication is that the rose bushes had no thorns. The curse barbed up the roses.

I have a lot of wild rasberrys around my 8 acres. I love to eat the berrys, but OUCH, when I try to get in among them to prune or make a path without proper clothing and gloves. Yah, thornless plants would be cool! :cool:

Ironically the curse of the thorns pierced the redeemer, Jesus's brow and head at the crucifixion when he paid the penalty for the sins of the world which originated at the time of the curse which originated the thorns. So the curse for sin effected the thorn crown's part for the sacrificial remedy for sin, the just savior suffering and dying for the unjust (paying the penalty for the sin of the unjust) so that the unjust might be proclaimed by God as just and have eternal life. :cool:


BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW ---- Jesus said, "When these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads, for your redemption draws near." Luke 21:28
This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by nator, posted 09-06-2006 10:02 AM nator has responded

Replies to this message:
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Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 42 of 59 (347135)
09-06-2006 9:14 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by ringo
09-06-2006 12:11 PM


Re: Apples and Oranges
Ringo writes:

And yet His covenant with Israel included:

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Lev 26:12 And I will walk among you, and will be your God, and ye shall be my people.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hey, good bud, you're sharp and efficient in your research. Thanks. However it's apples and oranges. Walking with God for the most part, especially before the NT times in scripture equates to obeying his commandments and having his blessings. It wasn't like in the garden when he actually in some form or another walked beside you and spoke audibly with you in a beautiful garden day in and day out. The same goes with Micah 6:8.

So yes, change and fall verified.

Ringo writes:

No sweat of the brow kind of hard labor....

Speak for yourself, Easymoney. :D

Ringo writes:

What do you suppose "dressing it and keeping it" entailed?

Well, they ate of the fruit of the trees so it wasn't for food. The fruit and nuts in the trees (don't forget the lucious avacadoes) were certainly adequate for a healthy diet with little work on the part of Adam and Eve.

I think of it as like a retired one who loves to garden, arranging things to suit and enjoying every minute of it. I have three vege gardens and since they provide much of my organic fresh food, it's work, especially digging potatoes which I'm doing now. However other than pruning, the trees take little work.

Ringo writes:

Sounds like a promotion, not a fall.

LOL! I'm looking for the New earth and the New Jerusalem with all the streets of gold, pearly gates and the life trees on both sides of the river bearing 12 kinds of fruit. Now that, me friend will be promotion, big time! :cool:


BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW ---- Jesus said, "When these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads, for your redemption draws near." Luke 21:28
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 Message 40 by ringo, posted 09-06-2006 12:11 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by ringo, posted 09-06-2006 10:51 PM Buzsaw has responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13181
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 43 of 59 (347152)
09-06-2006 10:51 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by Buzsaw
09-06-2006 9:14 PM


Re: Apples and Oranges
Buzsaw writes:

It wasn't like in the garden when he actually in some form or another walked beside you and spoke audibly with you in a beautiful garden day in and day out.

So you can't make a case for the "fall" without making up stuff that ain't in the Bible, eh? :)

Let's see what it actually says, shall we?

How many times did God talk to Adam before the "fall"?

Once:

quote:
Gen 2:16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

How many times did He talk to Eve?

None.

How many times did He walk with Adam and Eve in the garden before the "fall"?

None.

The first mention of God walking in the garden is:

quote:
Gen 3:8 And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden.

which is after they ate the fruit (and notice that God was alone).

So it seems that God's relationship with mankind was much more intimate after the supposed "fall".

What do you suppose "dressing it and keeping it" entailed?

Well, they ate of the fruit of the trees so it wasn't for food.

Um... there are still fruit trees around now, aren't there? Where's the change?

I think of it as like a retired one who loves to garden, arranging things to suit and enjoying every minute of it.

I remember reading a story titled Never Worked and Never Will:

Once upon a time there was a toymaker. From sunup to sundown he made toys, and often continued late into the night by lamplight. He sold them for just enough to live on. Sometimes he would give them away for nothing, if the children had no money, just to see the look on their faces.

Above his door, he had a sign that said, "Never Worked and Never Will". People used to stop to watch him, and some of them would ask about the sign, "How can you say you've never worked and never will? Nobody works harder than you do."

He'd just beam a smile at them and say, "How can you call this 'work'?"

That spirit certainly didn't die in the garden. There are still people who enjoy every minute of their work.

Speak for yourself, Easymoney.

It is easy to make money - unless you want a lot of it. :)

I'm looking for the New earth and the New Jerusalem with all the streets of gold, pearly gates and the life trees on both sides of the river bearing 12 kinds of fruit. Now that, me friend will be promotion, big time!

Sounds more like New Hell to me. :)

I'm a prairie boy. I'd rather have a big sky, a dusty road and my old worn-out sandals. Free choke-cherries, free saskatoons....

Garden of Eden, baby. :)

Edited by Ringo, : Promoted God from "he" to "He".

Edited by Ringo, : Planted plural treeS.


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This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by Buzsaw, posted 09-06-2006 9:14 PM Buzsaw has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 46 by Buzsaw, posted 09-09-2006 3:35 PM ringo has responded

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2081 days)
Posts: 12961
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 44 of 59 (347228)
09-07-2006 7:22 AM
Reply to: Message 41 by Buzsaw
09-06-2006 8:54 PM


Re: Brief And Boring?
quote:
I wasn't there but the implication is that the rose bushes had no thorns. The curse barbed up the roses.

Roses have thorns to protect the flowers and fruit from creatures that would eat them.

Are you saying that those insects and caterpillars that eat roses are hellspawn or something?

quote:
I have a lot of wild rasberrys around my 8 acres. I love to eat the berrys, but OUCH, when I try to get in among them to prune or make a path without proper clothing and gloves. Yah, thornless plants would be cool!

Cool for you, but bad for the berry bushes.

If there were no thorns, and those creatures who would eat them get all of the berries instead of some being inaccessable because there are just too many thorns, then how are the raspberry bushes going to reseed themselves?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by Buzsaw, posted 09-06-2006 8:54 PM Buzsaw has responded

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ringo
Member
Posts: 13181
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 45 of 59 (347258)
09-07-2006 11:09 AM
Reply to: Message 44 by nator
09-07-2006 7:22 AM


Re: Brief And Boring?
schrafinator writes:

... how are the raspberry bushes going to reseed themselves?

More sweat-of-the-brow work for the gardeners. :D


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