Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 114 (8789 total)
Current session began: 
Page Loaded: 09-22-2017 5:39 AM
342 online now:
Meddle, PaulK, Pollux (3 members, 339 visitors)
Chatting now:  Chat room empty
Newest Member: Porkncheese
Post Volume:
Total: 819,267 Year: 23,873/21,208 Month: 1,838/2,468 Week: 347/822 Day: 7/66 Hour: 0/1

Announcements: Reporting debate problems OR discussing moderation actions/inactions


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
RewPrev1
...
1415
16
1718
...
21Next
Author Topic:   jar - On Christianity
Omnivorous
Member (Idle past 498 days)
Posts: 3808
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005


Message 226 of 307 (345534)
08-31-2006 7:52 PM
Reply to: Message 223 by robinrohan
08-31-2006 5:06 PM


Re: Questions
I think most people experience moments of self-loathing.

It's not usually a matter of polite conversation, but most intimate truths aren't.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 223 by robinrohan, posted 08-31-2006 5:06 PM robinrohan has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 228 by Hyroglyphx, posted 08-31-2006 8:11 PM Omnivorous has not yet responded

  
Omnivorous
Member (Idle past 498 days)
Posts: 3808
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005


Message 227 of 307 (345536)
08-31-2006 8:07 PM
Reply to: Message 224 by Faith
08-31-2006 7:11 PM


Faith writes:

Self-hate is self-love in disguise because you wouldn't hate yourself for your failures if you didn't love yourself so much you couldn't stand having the flaws that cause the self-hate.

Humility, true humility, as opposed to self-love /self-hate, would accept all the flaws and the failures without getting all depressed about them. And in that attitude there may be a really healthy self-love.

I think you are bordering--nay, trespassing--on sophistry here. The Sophists were famous for being able to persuade you that black was white, only to then change your mind back the other way. :)

I think most people are stuck with themselves, not on themselves, and learn to live with their shortcomings.

I don't think people kill themselves out of self-love--they choose death to end intolerable pain, a quite different matter.

I don't love myself. I don't hate myself. I've come to terms with my strengths and weaknesses, and I accept the fact that I've done some very good things and some terrible things. I know I am neither the best of persons nor the worst. I try to do better.

I find the injunction to love thyself an odd idea if taken without instructive irony: to me, love places an Other above the self.

Self-love is a masturbatory, contradictory notion. A strong will to survive--even at the expense of self-delusion--is not the same as self-love.

I don't believe Robin loves himself, either. I think he takes good care of himself, by his own lights, but that, too, is another matter.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 224 by Faith, posted 08-31-2006 7:11 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
Hyroglyphx
Member (Idle past 21 days)
Posts: 5512
From: Austin, TX
Joined: 05-03-2006


Message 228 of 307 (345537)
08-31-2006 8:11 PM
Reply to: Message 226 by Omnivorous
08-31-2006 7:52 PM


Re: Questions
I think most people experience moments of self-loathing. It's not usually a matter of polite conversation, but most intimate truths aren't.

I think we all feel like that occasionally. In fact, if somebody didn't feel like crap about themselves at least a little bit, I'd be concerned that they were sociopaths. Are we referring to the occasional down-and-out feeling or the people who live their lives in total deprecation? Its one thing to know with certainty that you are far from perfection and far from good by God's standards, but its a whole other thing for someone to claim that they don't have one redeeming quality about themselves and constantly bombard you with a pity party. A bit emo if you ask me.

Edited by nemesis_juggernaut, : edit to add and typos


“"All science, even the divine science, is a sublime detective story. Only it is not set to detect why a man is dead; but the darker secret of why he is alive." —G. K. Chesterton
This message is a reply to:
 Message 226 by Omnivorous, posted 08-31-2006 7:52 PM Omnivorous has not yet responded

  
Archer Opteryx
Member (Idle past 1128 days)
Posts: 1811
From: East Asia
Joined: 08-16-2006


Message 229 of 307 (345571)
08-31-2006 10:17 PM
Reply to: Message 209 by iano
08-31-2006 10:25 AM


a world of possibilities
Iano wrote:

Might I be so presumptious as to suggest you find a resting place with those who say they find their rest in him. That of all worldviews (bar nihilism), Christianity strikes you as most reasonable - the only problem being you can't see it?

God pulls people to him by eliminating all other possibilities (in my own experience)

I missed the part where the other worldviews were discussed and eliminated.

This is remarkable, considering most of the arguments being made on behalf of Christianity by you and Faith in this thread could be made of any world belief with barely a word changed. Meaning to life, check. Reputable adherents, check. Aesthetic appeal, check.

You are arguing for the importance of having a belief system. You do not argue for Christianity. You assume Christianity.

How many other possibilities have you really considered?


Archer

All species are transitional.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 209 by iano, posted 08-31-2006 10:25 AM iano has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 230 by Faith, posted 09-01-2006 12:11 AM Archer Opteryx has responded
 Message 231 by iano, posted 09-01-2006 5:36 AM Archer Opteryx has not yet responded

Faith
Member
Posts: 26300
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 230 of 307 (345600)
09-01-2006 12:11 AM
Reply to: Message 229 by Archer Opteryx
08-31-2006 10:17 PM


Re: a world of possibilities
You are ignoring the context of our comments, which is Robin's strong attraction to some quintessentially Christian writings, including some of the Bible, especially the book of Ecclesiastes, and four of the most famous and orthodox greats in Christian history.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 229 by Archer Opteryx, posted 08-31-2006 10:17 PM Archer Opteryx has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 242 by Archer Opteryx, posted 09-01-2006 12:55 PM Faith has responded

  
iano
Member (Idle past 713 days)
Posts: 6164
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 231 of 307 (345651)
09-01-2006 5:36 AM
Reply to: Message 229 by Archer Opteryx
08-31-2006 10:17 PM


Re: a world of possibilities
Archer writes:

I missed the part where the other worldviews were discussed and eliminated.

In Robins case it seems they already have been eliminated. You're new so will have missed out on some discussion which will have led him to that conclusion (or at least the conclusion I suggest he occupies - he hasn't replied as yet). Also, the elimination of worldviews (as far as Robin is concerned he will have eliminated them himself) can have taken place outside the boundaries of EvC. My comment that God does the eliminating is simply a reminder of argument he has heard before from me - that if a man is saved then God will have done all the work.

You are arguing for the importance of having a belief system. You do not argue for Christianity. You assume Christianity.

Arguing any world view requires the assumption of something with which to kick of from. And I (and Faith) have argued much with Robin before so there is no need to go over basic ground again. We have, in the past, assumed objective morality and worked from there. Or assumed the uniqueness of Christianity and argued that all other religions are your-effort-counts based. We have assumed love to be the most precious thing of all for man to give or receive and have argued that Christianity is completely and utterly founded on love - God even uses his wrath on the way in order that his love might be expressed finally. Oh! we have argued alright. And with Robin (to whom the post was addressed) one doesn't have to go over things in broad brushstrokes again. He knows all the arguments. With him the devil is in the detail - his main objection at the moment seems to be that Jesus was deluded - not that he is convinced of that. Comments such as that you picked up "God eliminates alternative views" is a reminder to Robin of something he has heard before - not an argument.

You are arguing for the importance of having a belief system. You do not argue for Christianity. You assume Christianity.

I haven't argued for the importance of having a worldview - I think everyone has one. And in Robins case I don't argue for Christianity as a whole for the reasons mentioned above. Just the detail of the minute.

How many other possibilities have you really considered?

I never subjected any worldview to serious investigation (except for me-ism). Not that it matters much. The idea that you arrive at worldviews by real consideration only is a worldview. Christianity arrives at your door not you at it's. Outright me-ism is as good away for it to come knocking as any other.

Once you arrive at a destination you don't need to keep looking at the "world of possibilities" anymore.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 229 by Archer Opteryx, posted 08-31-2006 10:17 PM Archer Opteryx has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 232 by robinrohan, posted 09-01-2006 8:06 AM iano has responded

robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 232 of 307 (345666)
09-01-2006 8:06 AM
Reply to: Message 231 by iano
09-01-2006 5:36 AM


World views
1. Eastern religions--they seem rather vague to me. The doctrines are going to have be clear, distinct and definite in order for me to have any truck with it. They mention the way to nirvana is to lose one's desire for whatever, but don't explain how this wicked desire came about in the first place.
2. Traditional Christianity---belief in the Fall and the Passion. The Fall does not fit with evolution, unless we think animal pain doesn't matter. Questions about the historicity of Jesus. Questions about how Paul discusses Christ---lack of specifics about details of Jesus' life. Gap of 30-40 years before first texts. And the whole story is rather fantastic.
3. New Age Christianity (such as Jar's beliefs)--this is a version of "Christianity" that excludes the Fall and the Passion. The problem here is that such a religion provides no explanation for human suffering that arises from nature. Jar just says it's "natural," which explains nothing. This is really not so much a religion as a concoction of modern ideas about healthy-mindedness grafted vaguely onto some Biblical passages.
4. nihilism (my belief)--a logical extension of atheism. Fits with evolution, fits with the apparently accidental nature of life. No very cogent explanation of moral feelings and uncertainty about how "consciousness" might have arisen.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 231 by iano, posted 09-01-2006 5:36 AM iano has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 233 by Faith, posted 09-01-2006 8:12 AM robinrohan has not yet responded
 Message 234 by iano, posted 09-01-2006 9:13 AM robinrohan has responded
 Message 236 by anglagard, posted 09-01-2006 10:01 AM robinrohan has responded
 Message 245 by Archer Opteryx, posted 09-01-2006 1:33 PM robinrohan has responded

Faith
Member
Posts: 26300
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 233 of 307 (345667)
09-01-2006 8:12 AM
Reply to: Message 232 by robinrohan
09-01-2006 8:06 AM


Re: World views
2. Traditional Christianity---belief in the Fall and the Passion. The Fall does not fit with evolution, unless we think animal pain doesn't matter. Questions about the historicity of Jesus. Questions about how Paul discusses Christ---lack of specifics about details of Jesus' life. Gap of 30-40 years before first texts. And the whole story is rather fantastic.

Not "rather," it's mindblowingly fantastic. It should give you chills if you ever really believe it.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 232 by robinrohan, posted 09-01-2006 8:06 AM robinrohan has not yet responded

  
iano
Member (Idle past 713 days)
Posts: 6164
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 234 of 307 (345677)
09-01-2006 9:13 AM
Reply to: Message 232 by robinrohan
09-01-2006 8:06 AM


Re: World views
The Bible drips at the seams with references to mans spiritual blindness. That he cannot see these things. This is not taken into account. You insist you can see and in your seeing you see the objections. But neither Faith nor myself have ever said anyone can rationalise themselves to Christianity.

Another central theme is that it is in mans nature to reject. And the way he will do so is to hold up as prime that which is rejectionable. The shift into seeing pinkines rather than surface reflection can be enabled by considering what fits rather than what doesn't. Gods existance immediately clears out a raft of central questions a man might have.

"Who am I?" You are a being created by God. Your life has meaning because simply because he gave it meaning. He has lots of purpose for you

"Why am I here" You are here in order for the possibility of a relationship with God to occur. Here is the medium in which that goal is played out s'all

"Where am I going" Heaven or Hell

"Where did the universe come from" God created it

"Where did life come from" God created it

Similarily you could look at all the holes Nihilism leaves you with instead of looking only at the fit.

Its just a shift. A turning around - that is all repentance is - turning around. Not rejecting to option of viewing it in that way. There is no reason for you not to consider things in this light - given what is on offer: eternal life. What has nihilism got to offer in comparison? Bugger all in comparison.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 232 by robinrohan, posted 09-01-2006 8:06 AM robinrohan has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 235 by robinrohan, posted 09-01-2006 9:34 AM iano has responded

robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 235 of 307 (345686)
09-01-2006 9:34 AM
Reply to: Message 234 by iano
09-01-2006 9:13 AM


Re: World views
Similarily you could look at all the holes Nihilism leaves you with instead of looking only at the fit.

What "holes"?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 234 by iano, posted 09-01-2006 9:13 AM iano has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 237 by iano, posted 09-01-2006 10:08 AM robinrohan has responded

anglagard
Member
Posts: 2162
From: Big Spring, TX, USA
Joined: 03-18-2006


Message 236 of 307 (345692)
09-01-2006 10:01 AM
Reply to: Message 232 by robinrohan
09-01-2006 8:06 AM


Re: World views
I hope this list is not meant to be comprehensive as you left out a lot of other "World Views."

Personally, if my choices were limited to this falsely reduced set of world views, I would prefer numbers 1 and 3 to 2 and 4. Also, there is the question of potential misrepresentation as it is impossible to reduce a world view to a few sentences.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 232 by robinrohan, posted 09-01-2006 8:06 AM robinrohan has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 238 by robinrohan, posted 09-01-2006 10:39 AM anglagard has not yet responded

  
iano
Member (Idle past 713 days)
Posts: 6164
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 237 of 307 (345693)
09-01-2006 10:08 AM
Reply to: Message 235 by robinrohan
09-01-2006 9:34 AM


Re: World views
Holes? Well, consider the questions above for a start. Does nihilism offer any answers to any of them? I don't mean tentitive answers. I mean definitive answers.

Is its failure to do that not a 'hole' in your estimation?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 235 by robinrohan, posted 09-01-2006 9:34 AM robinrohan has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 239 by robinrohan, posted 09-01-2006 10:41 AM iano has not yet responded

robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 238 of 307 (345696)
09-01-2006 10:39 AM
Reply to: Message 236 by anglagard
09-01-2006 10:01 AM


Re: World views
falsely reduced set of world views

Well, when I said that Eastern religions seem vague, I meant they were vague to me. They might be perfectly clear to someone else. And of course I didn't mention Judaism or Islam or some other religions. I just mentioned what I'm familiar with.

I'll stand by my logical objection to New Age Christianity having no explanation for the problem of suffering. Any religion worth its salt, in my view, has to attempt that. That's why I said it's not really a religion.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 236 by anglagard, posted 09-01-2006 10:01 AM anglagard has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 240 by GDR, posted 09-01-2006 12:02 PM robinrohan has responded

robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 239 of 307 (345697)
09-01-2006 10:41 AM
Reply to: Message 237 by iano
09-01-2006 10:08 AM


Re: World views
Does nihilism offer any answers to any of them? I don't mean tentitive answers

It offers answers to such questions. How tentative they were would depend on how certain one was about one's nihilistic beliefs.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 237 by iano, posted 09-01-2006 10:08 AM iano has not yet responded

GDR
Member
Posts: 4279
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 4.1


Message 240 of 307 (345710)
09-01-2006 12:02 PM
Reply to: Message 238 by robinrohan
09-01-2006 10:39 AM


Re: World views
robinrohan writes:

I'll stand by my logical objection to New Age Christianity having no explanation for the problem of suffering. Any religion worth its salt, in my view, has to attempt that. That's why I said it's not really a religion.

As an explanation from someone who considers himself a traditional Christian, (somewhere between jar and Faith), I have only the following explanation.

If there were no suffering then how could we experience joy? Without suffering joy would just be what is without any pleasure attached to it.

For example are we prepared to sacrifice the joy that we get in holding our new born in order to spare ourselves of the suffering that we experience in the loss of a loved one.

It's the same thing with good and evil, love and hate etc.

In our world it seems to me that joy is winning out over sorrow because the vast majority of us seem quite keen to hang on to life. :)

Edited by GDR, : editorial change


Everybody is entitled to my opinion. :)
This message is a reply to:
 Message 238 by robinrohan, posted 09-01-2006 10:39 AM robinrohan has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 241 by robinrohan, posted 09-01-2006 12:28 PM GDR has responded

  
RewPrev1
...
1415
16
1718
...
21Next
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2015 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2017