Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 120 (8781 total)
Current session began: 
Page Loaded: 08-20-2017 8:42 PM
364 online now:
dwise1, JonF (2 members, 362 visitors)
Chatting now:  Chat room empty
Newest Member: evilsorcerer1
Post Volume:
Total: 816,579 Year: 21,185/21,208 Month: 1,618/2,326 Week: 73/881 Day: 73/119 Hour: 2/4

Announcements: Reporting debate problems OR discussing moderation actions/inactions


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
RewPrev1
...
1516
17
18192021Next
Author Topic:   jar - On Christianity
robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 241 of 307 (345716)
09-01-2006 12:28 PM
Reply to: Message 240 by GDR
09-01-2006 12:02 PM


Re: World views
If there were no suffering then how could we experience joy?

Yes, without all those birth defects and deseases and accidents, in which innocents suffer and die, how on earth could we ever manage a smile?

Edited by robinrohan, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 240 by GDR, posted 09-01-2006 12:02 PM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 244 by GDR, posted 09-01-2006 1:27 PM robinrohan has responded

Archer Opteryx
Member (Idle past 1096 days)
Posts: 1811
From: East Asia
Joined: 08-16-2006


Message 242 of 307 (345725)
09-01-2006 12:55 PM
Reply to: Message 230 by Faith
09-01-2006 12:11 AM


Re: a world of possibilities
Faith:

You are ignoring the context of our comments, which is Robin's strong attraction to some quintessentially Christian writings, including some of the Bible, especially the book of Ecclesiastes, and four of the most famous and orthodox greats in Christian history.

Ecclesiastes is a great book. One of my favorites, too.

But it is demonstrably not a 'quintessentially Christian writing.' It is a quintessentially Jewish writing. Its author was not a Christian. Its author had never heard of Christianity.

The book was accepted as part of the Hebrew canon centuries before that came to be incorporated into the canons of Orthodox, Catholic, and Protestant Christian churches.

Yeshua was not a Christian, either. Logically speaking, people who truly intend to be 'like Christ' should convert to Judaism.


Archer

All species are transitional.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 230 by Faith, posted 09-01-2006 12:11 AM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 243 by robinrohan, posted 09-01-2006 1:18 PM Archer Opteryx has not yet responded
 Message 264 by Faith, posted 09-01-2006 5:54 PM Archer Opteryx has responded

robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 243 of 307 (345735)
09-01-2006 1:18 PM
Reply to: Message 242 by Archer Opteryx
09-01-2006 12:55 PM


Re: a world of possibilities
Ecclesiastes is a great book. One of my favorites, too.

Also, controversial down through the years.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 242 by Archer Opteryx, posted 09-01-2006 12:55 PM Archer Opteryx has not yet responded

GDR
Member
Posts: 4264
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 244 of 307 (345737)
09-01-2006 1:27 PM
Reply to: Message 241 by robinrohan
09-01-2006 12:28 PM


Re: World views
robinrohan writes:

Yes, without all those birth defects and deseases and accidents, in whihch innocents suffer and die, how on earth could we ever manage a smile?

Fine, but how about all those births that are normal? If it wasn't for sorrow then joy would be just like gravity. All we've ever known is positive gravity. It is just what is and we never think about it one way or the other. If there was no sorrow we would have no pleasure in joy. It would be just like gravity; just the way things are.

In addition as Christians we believe that this life is just a precursor to the next life. Why don't you wait 'till you get there before you criticize things too much? :)

Edited by GDR, : No reason given.


Everybody is entitled to my opinion. :)
This message is a reply to:
 Message 241 by robinrohan, posted 09-01-2006 12:28 PM robinrohan has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 248 by robinrohan, posted 09-01-2006 2:18 PM GDR has responded

  
Archer Opteryx
Member (Idle past 1096 days)
Posts: 1811
From: East Asia
Joined: 08-16-2006


Message 245 of 307 (345741)
09-01-2006 1:33 PM
Reply to: Message 232 by robinrohan
09-01-2006 8:06 AM


Re: World views
robinrohan writes:

1. Eastern religions--they seem rather vague to me. The doctrines are going to have be clear, distinct and definite in order for me to have any truck with it. They mention the way to nirvana is to lose one's desire for whatever, but don't explain how this wicked desire came about in the first place.

You are talking about Buddhism with your mention of Nirvana. But your demand that Buddhism give you 'clear, distinct and definite doctrines' and an explanation of 'wickedness' is asking for a Western product from the outset.

Eastern ideas seem vague to you at the moment because, most likely, you lack a sufficient vocabulary to render them. It's like using the language of computer science to describe astronomy. Square pegs and round holes and all that. The concepts of anything remain elusive to us if we have to translate them into inadequate and biased terms.

4. nihilism (my belief)--a logical extension of atheism. Fits with evolution, fits with the apparently accidental nature of life. No very cogent explanation of moral feelings and uncertainty about how "consciousness" might have arisen.

This is very interesting. Before you insisted on 'clear, distinct and definite doctrines.' Now you say you like ambiguity.

Nihilism is convincing to you because it offers 'uncertainty' and 'no very cogent explanation.' You find it credible because it does not try to explain everything. The impression I take from that is that you like its humility. It does not claim to know more than it can know. It leaves room for mystery and discovery.

But within the mysteries of nihilism you still have room for precision and clarity, don't you? You have science.

How do you understand these two poles: your desire for clarity and the desire for mystery? Do you see them as something you must choose between? As something you can synthesize, perhaps as you are doing with science and nihilism? What do you think?


Archer

All species are transitional.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 232 by robinrohan, posted 09-01-2006 8:06 AM robinrohan has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 247 by robinrohan, posted 09-01-2006 2:14 PM Archer Opteryx has responded

ringo
Member
Posts: 13459
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 246 of 307 (345748)
09-01-2006 1:47 PM


The"Me" Decade
Anybody remember Al Franken's routines about the "Me" decade on SNL?
("How does that effect me - Al Franken?")

Why is it that a thread entitled "jar - On Cristianity" turns into "How does that effect me - robinrohan?" :D


Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC
Replies to this message:
 Message 249 by robinrohan, posted 09-01-2006 2:18 PM ringo has not yet responded

robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 247 of 307 (345754)
09-01-2006 2:14 PM
Reply to: Message 245 by Archer Opteryx
09-01-2006 1:33 PM


Re: World views
Nihilism is convincing to you because it offers 'uncertainty' and 'no very cogent explanation.' You find it credible because it does not try to explain everything. The impression I take from that is that you like its humility. It does not claim to know more than it can know. It leaves room for mystery and discovery.

Not what I meant. I was writing in a sort of shorthand style and did not provide clear transitions. What I meant was our moral feelings and the evolution of consciousness are problems for me as regards evolution. I don't "like" these question marks.

The impression I take from that is that you like its humility. It does not claim to know more than it can know. It leaves room for mystery and discovery.

The idea of nihilism is pretty definite. There is no God; life has no purpose. There's nothing particularly humble about nihilism.

How do you understand these two poles: your desire for clarity and the desire for mystery?

I have no desire for mystery. Now, it is true, mystery has a romantic aesthetic value, but that's not important here.

Eastern ideas seem vague to you at the moment because, most likely, you lack a sufficient vocabulary to render them

That may be. If they are clear to you, in a way that can be discursively explained, let me know.

Edited by robinrohan, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 245 by Archer Opteryx, posted 09-01-2006 1:33 PM Archer Opteryx has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 256 by Archer Opteryx, posted 09-01-2006 3:22 PM robinrohan has responded

robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 248 of 307 (345756)
09-01-2006 2:18 PM
Reply to: Message 244 by GDR
09-01-2006 1:27 PM


Re: World views
Why don't you wait 'till you get there before you criticize things too much?

I'm not "criticizing." It would be rather foolish to criticize nature. I might as criticize the trees for losing their leaves in the fall, and I have to rake them up.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 244 by GDR, posted 09-01-2006 1:27 PM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 250 by GDR, posted 09-01-2006 2:44 PM robinrohan has responded

robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 249 of 307 (345757)
09-01-2006 2:18 PM
Reply to: Message 246 by ringo
09-01-2006 1:47 PM


Re: The"Me" Decade
Why is it that a thread entitled "jar - On Cristianity" turns into "How does that effect me - robinrohan?"

Self-absorbed egotism, probably.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 246 by ringo, posted 09-01-2006 1:47 PM ringo has not yet responded

GDR
Member
Posts: 4264
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 250 of 307 (345760)
09-01-2006 2:44 PM
Reply to: Message 248 by robinrohan
09-01-2006 2:18 PM


Re: World views
robinrohan writes:

I'll stand by my logical objection to New Age Christianity having no explanation for the problem of suffering. Any religion worth its salt, in my view, has to attempt that. That's why I said it's not really a religion.

I in my humble fashion try and provide the explanation. Then you say:

robinrohan writes:

I'm not "criticizing." It would be rather foolish to criticize nature. I might as criticize the trees for losing their leaves in the fall, and I have to rake them up.

You were criticizing jar's version of Christianity for not having an explanation. I try to give you one and then you basically say it doesn't matter because you don't believe in God anyway.

One of the major objections that I hear from Atheists is the problem of a God who allows suffering. I have just provided my understanding of why we have suffering.


Everybody is entitled to my opinion. :)
This message is a reply to:
 Message 248 by robinrohan, posted 09-01-2006 2:18 PM robinrohan has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 251 by robinrohan, posted 09-01-2006 2:49 PM GDR has responded

  
robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 251 of 307 (345762)
09-01-2006 2:49 PM
Reply to: Message 250 by GDR
09-01-2006 2:44 PM


Re: World views
You were criticizing jar's version of Christianity for not having an explanation.

Oh, I thought you meant I was criticizing the fact that there are such phenomena as birth defects.

I don't think your explanation of "if no sorrow, no joy" is a very good one. I don't see any reason why the Almighty could not produce a situation in which we can have joy without sorrow. I think that's supposed to be the situation in heaven, if I'm not mistaken.

Why not reproduce that on earth?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 250 by GDR, posted 09-01-2006 2:44 PM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 252 by GDR, posted 09-01-2006 3:02 PM robinrohan has not yet responded

GDR
Member
Posts: 4264
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 252 of 307 (345767)
09-01-2006 3:02 PM
Reply to: Message 251 by robinrohan
09-01-2006 2:49 PM


Re: World views
robinrohan writes:

I think that's supposed to be the situation in heaven, if I'm not mistaken.

Why not reproduce that on earth?

I was hoping you wouldn't notice. :) I agree. Frankly I can understand why it exists here but I'm not sure how it cannot exist in the next world. I have to admit that for me it is part of the mystery of the next life and I take it on faith.

The only possible explanation that I have heard, and you can take it for what it's worth, is that we retain memory of this life so that we have an understanding of sorrow in the next life. The only other thought that I have had on it, is that there are varying degrees of joy to be experienced.

Obviously if we have eternal life there are no life threatening diseases, and no accidental deaths. Love will be all encompassing so there will be no crime or war. I guess it is a lot like life in the womb, we didn't have any understanding of what the next life would be then either. :) In the final analysis there are some things that we just won't learn until we get there.

Greg


Everybody is entitled to my opinion. :)
This message is a reply to:
 Message 251 by robinrohan, posted 09-01-2006 2:49 PM robinrohan has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 253 by jar, posted 09-01-2006 3:11 PM GDR has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 29183
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 253 of 307 (345768)
09-01-2006 3:11 PM
Reply to: Message 252 by GDR
09-01-2006 3:02 PM


Re: World views
Sounds really dull and boring. Sure hope it's not like that.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 252 by GDR, posted 09-01-2006 3:02 PM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 254 by GDR, posted 09-01-2006 3:18 PM jar has not yet responded
 Message 255 by purpledawn, posted 09-01-2006 3:20 PM jar has not yet responded

GDR
Member
Posts: 4264
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 254 of 307 (345772)
09-01-2006 3:18 PM
Reply to: Message 253 by jar
09-01-2006 3:11 PM


Re: World views
jar writes:

Sounds really dull and boring. Sure hope it's not like that.

You're hoping there'll be death and destruction are you? :)

I think that we have to look at the things in this life that bring joy. As I understand things we still remain the same person but we just get a different mode of transportation that comes with an eternal guarantee.


Everybody is entitled to my opinion. :)
This message is a reply to:
 Message 253 by jar, posted 09-01-2006 3:11 PM jar has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 259 by Quetzal, posted 09-01-2006 4:11 PM GDR has responded

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 955 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 255 of 307 (345774)
09-01-2006 3:20 PM
Reply to: Message 253 by jar
09-01-2006 3:11 PM


Heaven
So if Heaven supposedly has no pain or sorrow, etc. Then there would be no wonder or inspiration. All is revealed and there would be nothing left to look forward to.

I guess looking forward to that type of heaven depends on whether one dislikes the life they have.


"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz
This message is a reply to:
 Message 253 by jar, posted 09-01-2006 3:11 PM jar has not yet responded

RewPrev1
...
1516
17
18192021Next
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2015 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2017