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Author Topic:   Belief Statement - jar
robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 241 of 300 (327762)
06-30-2006 12:48 PM
Reply to: Message 240 by ringo
06-30-2006 12:36 PM


Re: Scriptures on the crucifixion as sacrifice for sin
Laying down one's life means devoting one's life, or even risking one's life, not losing it.

"Laying down" means "devoting"? Normally it means "dying."


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 Message 240 by ringo, posted 06-30-2006 12:36 PM ringo has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
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Faith
Member
Posts: 26703
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 242 of 300 (327767)
06-30-2006 1:02 PM
Reply to: Message 241 by robinrohan
06-30-2006 12:48 PM


Re: Scriptures on the crucifixion as sacrifice for sin
"Laying down" means "devoting"? Normally it means "dying."

Reinventing the English language is the only way liberal Christianity can make its case. They'll sacrifice anything to crucify the truth.

Interestingly similar, perhaps, to the problem of how "logic" gets redefined, according to the politically correct position of the moment.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 241 by robinrohan, posted 06-30-2006 12:48 PM robinrohan has not yet responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 26703
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 243 of 300 (327769)
06-30-2006 1:11 PM
Reply to: Message 240 by ringo
06-30-2006 12:36 PM


Re: Scriptures on the crucifixion as sacrifice for sin
Faith writes:
A sinless man is immortal.

Ringo writes:

Jesus was not immortal. He died.

As I quoted from scripture, he died because he chose to die. No mortal man can choose death. He died with the sins of all those who believe on Him placed on Him as if they were His own. That's the only way He, sinless in Himself, could have died.

Scripture makes it plain that he was sinless and did not have to die at all because he was sinless, but CHOSE to die for our sake.

He chose to become mortal for our sake. He chose neither the time nor the means of His death.

God the Father chose the time and means, but Jesus the God/Man chose to die. Wonderful how you know stuff about Jesus that is the negation of what scripture says about Him. Some sort of reverse prophetic gift there?

John 10:15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

Laying down one's life means devoting one's life, or even risking one's life, not losing it.

The latest version of Newspeak perhaps?

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 240 by ringo, posted 06-30-2006 12:36 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 244 by ringo, posted 06-30-2006 2:08 PM Faith has responded

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 13965
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 244 of 300 (327784)
06-30-2006 2:08 PM
Reply to: Message 243 by Faith
06-30-2006 1:11 PM


Re: Scriptures on the crucifixion as sacrifice for sin
Faith writes:

No mortal man can choose death.

No mortal man needs to "choose" death. It's a given.

God chose life, in the form of Jesus. Death was the inescapable conclusion.

Wonderful how you know stuff about Jesus that is the negation of what scripture says about Him.

As I said, nonsensical conclusions (such as yours) are not what scripture "says". If you're so confident of what scripture says, why do you run away from discussions of scripture?

Laying down one's life means devoting one's life, or even risking one's life, not losing it.

The latest version of Newspeak perhaps?

Soldiers lay down their lives when they knowingly (and more-or-less voluntarily) put themselves in harm's way. The sacrifice is in what they do, not in their death. Death is an unfortunate byproduct.

quote:
"No bastard ever won a war by dying for his country.
He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country."
- Attributed to General George S. Patton Jr.

Death is an inevitable - and usually unplanned - part of life. It is not an accomplishment.


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This message is a reply to:
 Message 243 by Faith, posted 06-30-2006 1:11 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 245 by Faith, posted 06-30-2006 2:19 PM ringo has responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 26703
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 245 of 300 (327787)
06-30-2006 2:19 PM
Reply to: Message 244 by ringo
06-30-2006 2:08 PM


Re: Scriptures on the crucifixion as sacrifice for sin
Faith writes:
No mortal man can choose death.

No mortal man needs to "choose" death. It's a given.

This is false, but all we are doing is repeating ourselves. I will repeat myself one more time then if nothing new comes up you can go on all you like.

As I've said over and over, death is impossible for a sinless man, which is shown in multiple ways in scripture. Death is the wages of sin, says scripture. No sin, no death. Jesus was without sin, says scripture. He says in scripture that he chose death, that no man had that power over him otherwise. You have answered these scriptural truths with nothing but your own wild assertions.

God chose life, in the form of Jesus. Death was the inescapable conclusion.

Not for the sinless perfect Man and Son of God.

Wonderful how you know stuff about Jesus that is the negation of what scripture says about Him.

As I said, nonsensical conclusions (such as yours) are not what scripture "says". If you're so confident of what scripture says, why do you run away from discussions of scripture?

Odd thing to say when I'm the only one here who has quoted scripture -- quite a bit of it Message 214. You have been doing nothing but a subjective completely unscriptural spiel.

Laying down one's life means devoting one's life, or even risking one's life, not losing it.

The latest version of Newspeak perhaps?

Soldiers lay down their lives when they knowingly (and more-or-less voluntarily) put themselves in harm's way. The sacrifice is in what they do, not in their death. Death is an unfortunate byproduct.

That is false. It is not how the term is used. It is used of someone who gave his life as a soldier, that is, died, not just put himself in harm's way.

"No bastard ever won a war by dying for his country.
He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country."
- Attributed to General George S. Patton Jr.

That hardly illuminates the problem of your misuse of the language of laying down one's life.

Death is an inevitable - and usually unplanned - part of life. It is not an accomplishment.

That is true for sinful mortals such as you and me. It is interesting that you have ignored all the scripture I have quoted to demonstrate that it is not true for Jesus.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 244 by ringo, posted 06-30-2006 2:08 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 246 by ringo, posted 06-30-2006 2:48 PM Faith has not yet responded
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ringo
Member
Posts: 13965
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 246 of 300 (327801)
06-30-2006 2:48 PM
Reply to: Message 245 by Faith
06-30-2006 2:19 PM


Re: Scriptures on the crucifixion as sacrifice for sin
Faith writes:

As I've said over and over, death is impossible for a sinless man....

Any yet Jesus did die. His death was eminently possible, your misrepresentation of scripture notwithstanding.

He says in scripture that he chose death, that no man had that power over him otherwise.

If no man had the power of death over Him, He was not a man.

When He said that He "chose death" he was saying that He chose the life of a normal man - including the inevitability of death.

If you're so confident of what scripture says, why do you run away from discussions of scripture?

Odd thing to say when I'm the only one here who has quoted scripture....

It is not my place to usurp jar's thread, and there is nowhere near enough space left to discuss the side issues fully. I have explained briefly why your interpretation is wrong and I have invited you to discuss the relevant scriptures - or any other scriptures - in an appropriate thread.

Soldiers lay down their lives when they knowingly (and more-or-less voluntarily) put themselves in harm's way. The sacrifice is in what they do, not in their death. Death is an unfortunate byproduct.

That is false. It is not how the term is used. It is used of someone who gave his life as a soldier, that is, died, not just put himself in harm's way.

If "laying down one's life" meant only death, then a suicide would be on the same plane with a soldier's death. On the contrary, "laying down one's life" means risking one's life for a reason. The risk of one's life is more important than the loss of one's life.

It is interesting that you have ignored all the scripture I have quoted to demonstrate that it is not true for Jesus.

I have not ignored anything - I have explained that if your notion of Jesus is correct, then He was not a real man at all and the gospel is irrelevant.

I will gladly discuss it with you at length in the appropriate venue.


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This message is a reply to:
 Message 245 by Faith, posted 06-30-2006 2:19 PM Faith has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 250 by MangyTiger, posted 06-30-2006 4:11 PM ringo has responded

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 4365
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 247 of 300 (327813)
06-30-2006 3:26 PM
Reply to: Message 245 by Faith
06-30-2006 2:19 PM


Re: Scriptures on the crucifixion as sacrifice for sin
faith writes:

Death is the wages of sin, says scripture.

My reading of this is that it is talking of death in the life to come, which means hell, which means separation from God.


Everybody is entitled to my opinion. :)
This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 249 by Brian, posted 06-30-2006 3:57 PM GDR has responded

    
Brian
Member (Idle past 2571 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 248 of 300 (327817)
06-30-2006 3:50 PM
Reply to: Message 177 by jar
06-28-2006 11:59 AM


Re: Love God, how can I do that?
I believe that GOD reaches evry heart, even those who are unaware of Her.

Wonderful, but I believe that satan reaches every heart by pretending to be God, so it must be true.

If I did respond in your time frame, even if unaware of it, I will have fulfilled your desires.

Well actually it doesn’t. You see I created you with free will so that you would follow me by choice. I am not the type of God to resort to subterfuge to fulfil my desires.

I didn’t realise that you didn’t believe in free will.

All that GOD wants is for folk to try to do what is right and to try not to do what is wrong.

But I do try to do this, I just don’t need the promise of a reward as an incentive.

Let me ask you this Jim. Would you still be a nice person if you were not a ‘Christian’?

Perhaps not yet, but maybe one day you will understand.

I already understand. You wish to accept the bits of the Bible that support your particular stance, but ignore the core teachings of Christianity.

Because loving GOD is an action, not words or beliefs or acknowledgement. It is the results that count, what you do, not why you do it.

Oh I see. So because I treat others as I would like to be treated that makes me a Christian? :laugh:

Am I a Christian ?

If you try to do what is right, and try not to do what is wrong, then yes, you do fulfill the commandment.

Well, actually you don’t. The commandment instructs the individual to Love God with all their heart, strength, mind and soul. The way you put it you make this commandment redundant.

You say love God and be nice to everyone and you are saved, and then you say that if you love everyone then you love God anyway so the first commandment of yours is completely pointless, you are as well being an atheist. Why would God put the burden of being a Christian on to people when it is unnecessary?

When you are judged (I know you don't believe you will be judged but I do believe you will be judged, it is a statement of belief you know), you will be judged based on your behavior.

So, you won’t be judged on whether you love God? Then your first criteria is just crazy.

You did say Love god [b] AND{/b love others as you love yourself.

There are TWO commands according to you, Love God AND love others as you love yourself, but your claim negates the first command.

Have you really thought this through mate?

If during your life you really did try to do what is right, tried not to do what is wrong, were sorry when you failed and tried to do better in the future, then GOD will know it.

Yes, but you are not following the COMMAND to love God.

And yes, what is right may at times depend on ones Faith. But that is but one of the variables. Deciding what is right and wrong will always be a difficult decision make with insufficient information, without completely considering all the factors and within the limitations all humans face. GOD knows that. He does not expect perfection.

I would say that claiming your incarnation as a human is a crock of sh*t is a teensy bit less than God expects.

Brian.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 177 by jar, posted 06-28-2006 11:59 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 252 by jar, posted 06-30-2006 5:12 PM Brian has responded

    
Brian
Member (Idle past 2571 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 249 of 300 (327818)
06-30-2006 3:57 PM
Reply to: Message 247 by GDR
06-30-2006 3:26 PM


Re: Scriptures on the crucifixion as sacrifice for sin
My reading of this is that it is talking of death in the life to come, which means hell, which means separation from God.

Do you believe that we are born sin free?

Brian.

Edited by Brian, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 247 by GDR, posted 06-30-2006 3:26 PM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 256 by GDR, posted 06-30-2006 7:51 PM Brian has responded

    
MangyTiger
Member (Idle past 3966 days)
Posts: 989
From: Leicester, UK
Joined: 07-30-2004


Message 250 of 300 (327822)
06-30-2006 4:11 PM
Reply to: Message 246 by ringo
06-30-2006 2:48 PM


Re: Scriptures on the crucifixion as sacrifice for sin
If "laying down one's life" meant only death, then a suicide would be on the same plane with a soldier's death. On the contrary, "laying down one's life" means risking one's life for a reason. The risk of one's life is more important than the loss of one's life.

I think you're conflating two things here - the 'risk' and 'reason' parts.

I agree that "laying down one's life" always involves a reason.

However I have never ever heard the phrase used except about people who died (soldiers, policemen, firemen, the guy at the end of A Tale Of Two Cities).

Can you give me some examples of it being used about somebody who risked their life but didn't die - either in literature or political/rememberance speeches or newspapers etc.?

Obviously you can say things like "Every soldier knows they may be called on to lay down their life for their country" - but I would say this clearly means die (in fact you could replace "lay down their life" with "make the ultimate sacrifice" and have exactly the same meaning).

Actually I think I've just found the perfect summation of my (and I think Faith's - and you have no idea how strange it is to agree with her rather than you :)) position.

The phrase "lay down your life" is a synonym[1] for "make the ultimate sacrifice" - and they both mean "as a result of a choice die for the benefit of others".

[1]Synonym only really applies to individual words - I don't know what the correct term is for phrases.


Oops! Wrong Planet
This message is a reply to:
 Message 246 by ringo, posted 06-30-2006 2:48 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 251 by ringo, posted 06-30-2006 4:32 PM MangyTiger has responded

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 13965
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 251 of 300 (327834)
06-30-2006 4:32 PM
Reply to: Message 250 by MangyTiger
06-30-2006 4:11 PM


Re: Scriptures on the crucifixion as sacrifice for sin
MangyTiger writes:

Can you give me some examples of it being used about somebody who risked their life but didn't die - either in literature or political/rememberance speeches or newspapers etc.?

There's a similar phrase that we apply to police officers, firefighters, etc.: "laying their lives on the line". Do you think that refers only to the ones who die? I'd say it refers to all of them who risk their lives for our sake.

What we have here is a question of English usage. You and Faith are trying to project today's common usage of a phrase back on Jesus, who wasn't speaking English.

For a better idea of what He meant, let's look at the context:

quote:
Joh 10:11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.
Joh 10:12 But he that is a hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep.
Joh 10:13 The hireling fleeth, because he is a hireling, and careth not for the sheep.
Joh 10:14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.
Joh 10:15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

Does a shepherd die for his sheep or does he risk his life to protect his sheep? What use to the sheep would a dead shepherd be? Who would protect them from the next danger?

It seems clear from His own words that Jesus was not talking about His actual death, but the potential for death. And it also seems clear from His own words that His death would be a detriment to the sheep, not a benefit.

Let's look at another usage of "laying down one's life" in the New Testament:

quote:
1Jo 3:16 Hereby perceive we the love of God, because He laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.

We ought to lay down our lives for our brethren as Jesus laid down his life for us. Sounds more like dedicating our lives, doesn't it?

Look at the next verse:

quote:
1Jo 3:17 But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him?

It's pretty clear that "laying down our lives for our brethren" refers to what we can do in life, not in death.

Edited by Ringo, : Capitalization

Edited by Ringo, : Spelling

Edited by Ringo, : Capitalization. Ah, the joys of obsessive compulsion.


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This message is a reply to:
 Message 250 by MangyTiger, posted 06-30-2006 4:11 PM MangyTiger has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 253 by MangyTiger, posted 06-30-2006 5:44 PM ringo has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 29758
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 252 of 300 (327847)
06-30-2006 5:12 PM
Reply to: Message 248 by Brian
06-30-2006 3:50 PM


Re: Love God, how can I do that?
Brian, I am disappointed in you.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 248 by Brian, posted 06-30-2006 3:50 PM Brian has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 258 by Brian, posted 07-01-2006 8:52 AM jar has responded

  
MangyTiger
Member (Idle past 3966 days)
Posts: 989
From: Leicester, UK
Joined: 07-30-2004


Message 253 of 300 (327854)
06-30-2006 5:44 PM
Reply to: Message 251 by ringo
06-30-2006 4:32 PM


Re: Scriptures on the crucifixion as sacrifice for sin
There's a similar phrase that we apply to police officers, firefighters, etc.: "laying their lives on the line". Do you think that refers only to the ones who die? I'd say it refers to all of them who risk their lives for our sake.

I agree with all this but...

...in this case "laying your life on the line" is similar to "laying down your life" but is not a synonym (somebody must know what the right word is :)). The phrase "laying your life on the line" specifically means risking your life - a consequence of which may (or may not) be that you "lay down your life" (i.e. die).

However it turns out all of that is irrelevant.

What we have here is a question of English usage. You and Faith are trying to project today's common usage of a phrase back on Jesus, who wasn't speaking English.

Almost completely guilty as charged. I am indeed talking about contemprary usage. Despite the fact I read all the messages - so I knew it was about Biblical quotations - I got sucked into fixing on the modern usage and forgot the Biblical context. A case of not seeing the wood for the trees, so mea culpa(ish).

So, in the Biblical context I have some questions you may be able to answer:

For a better idea of what He meant, let's look at the context:

quote:
Joh 10:11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.
Joh 10:12 But he that is a hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep.
Joh 10:13 The hireling fleeth, because he is a hireling, and careth not for the sheep.
Joh 10:14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.
Joh 10:15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

Does a shepherd die for his sheep or does he risk his life to protect his sheep? What use to the sheep would a dead shepherd be? Who would protect them from the next danger?

Why did you stop there? If you go on three more verses it says:

quote:
Joh 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.
Joh 10:17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.
Joh 10:18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

In your interpretation of Jesus laying his life down what does taking it again mean? I can't see how verses 17 and 18 make sense with your interpretation.

Of course, all this could be pissing in the word on both our parts. After all, we're talking about Jesus saying something in whatever language it was he spoke being later reported in 1st. (?) Century Greek which is later translated into 17th. Century English (for the KJV) being discussed in the 21st. Century by a Brit and a Canuck.

What are the chances of our really getting the original meaning right? :)

Maybe more later - I've got to get my supper now!


Oops! Wrong Planet
This message is a reply to:
 Message 251 by ringo, posted 06-30-2006 4:32 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 255 by ringo, posted 06-30-2006 6:11 PM MangyTiger has not yet responded

    
lfen
Member (Idle past 2290 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 254 of 300 (327856)
06-30-2006 5:53 PM
Reply to: Message 245 by Faith
06-30-2006 2:19 PM


Re: Scriptures on the crucifixion as sacrifice for sin
death is impossible for a sinless man

Do you mean like they would never die of "old age" or do you mean bullets would bounce off them like Superman? If an H-Bomb went off on top of them would they just walk away unharmed?

lfen


This message is a reply to:
 Message 245 by Faith, posted 06-30-2006 2:19 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13965
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 255 of 300 (327862)
06-30-2006 6:11 PM
Reply to: Message 253 by MangyTiger
06-30-2006 5:44 PM


Re: Scriptures on the crucifixion as sacrifice for sin
mangyTiger writes:

In your interpretation of Jesus laying his life down what does taking it again mean?

Remember that Jesus was speaking in the context of a shepherd - in a parable, as it were. He lays His life on the line - or lays it down - on a regular basis. But a shepherd dying for his sheep makes no sense - they would be at the mercy of the wolves.

The laying down of His life is not the business He is in - He is in the business of raising sheep and His life is entangled with the lives of His sheep. When the danger has passed, they all have to take up their lives where they left off. When the drama is over, they go back to the daily grind.

It seems to me that He was emphasizing the daily life as opposed to the threat of death. Laying down His life for His sheep also means sacrificing His own comfort to improve the lives of His sheep.

The passage in 1 John seems to confirm that "laying down one's life" means giving what we can in life, not in death.


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