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Author Topic:   Belief Statement - jar
GDR
Member
Posts: 4262
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 256 of 300 (327894)
06-30-2006 7:51 PM
Reply to: Message 249 by Brian
06-30-2006 3:57 PM


Re: Scriptures on the crucifixion as sacrifice for sin
Brian writes:

Do you believe that we are born sin free?

Good question. I think that we are born with a sin nature. Infants by nature seem to be focused on nothing but their own needs. This lasts for some time before they start to learn concepts such as fairness and sharing etc.

When we talk about conscience, I believe that is God working in us and it is listening and responding positively to that still small voice that makes us right with God. It isn't the doing of good works that makes us right with God, as people can perform good works for any variety of reasons that are not of God.It is about loving God, and our neighbour and only God truly knows our heart.

Becoming a Christian gives us a new start with God and a more acute sense of that still small voice. IMHO


Everybody is entitled to my opinion. :)
This message is a reply to:
 Message 249 by Brian, posted 06-30-2006 3:57 PM Brian has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 257 by Brian, posted 07-01-2006 8:51 AM GDR has responded

    
Brian
Member (Idle past 2456 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 257 of 300 (327931)
07-01-2006 8:51 AM
Reply to: Message 256 by GDR
06-30-2006 7:51 PM


Re: Scriptures on the crucifixion as sacrifice for sin
In Religious Studies there is a concept known as the 'Human Condition', it essentially means that any idea about the condition of one human must apply to all humans. For example, in Buddhism, the human conditon is one of suffering, all humans suffer, there are no exceptions.

In Christianity the human condition is that being born into sin. You quoted Saint Paul earlier, and he certainly subscribes to this concept.

So, if we are all born into a sinful condition, what is the cure?

Brian.

Edited by Brian, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 256 by GDR, posted 06-30-2006 7:51 PM GDR has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 265 by GDR, posted 07-01-2006 10:35 AM Brian has not yet responded

    
Brian
Member (Idle past 2456 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 258 of 300 (327933)
07-01-2006 8:52 AM
Reply to: Message 252 by jar
06-30-2006 5:12 PM


Re: Love God, how can I do that?
Brian, I am disappointed in you.

Now that you have broke my heart, could you answer the questions?

Brian.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 252 by jar, posted 06-30-2006 5:12 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 259 by jar, posted 07-01-2006 9:23 AM Brian has responded

    
jar
Member
Posts: 29183
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 259 of 300 (327942)
07-01-2006 9:23 AM
Reply to: Message 258 by Brian
07-01-2006 8:52 AM


Re: Love God, how can I do that?
Well, most of them were sophomoric questions totally unrelated to anything I have said, so no, I will not bother with them.

But a few showed either that you are not reading what I write or that I am really failing to make myself understood.

You had mentioned in an earlier post that you commanded me to reply before some deadline.

I said that if I did reply within your timeframe that would fulfill your command even if I was unaware you had made such a command.

Then you replied:

Well actually it doesn’t. You see I created you with free will so that you would follow me by choice. I am not the type of God to resort to subterfuge to fulfil my desires.

I didn’t realise that you didn’t believe in free will.

Well, that response has absolutely nothing to do with anything either of us had said and seems to be just another attempt to misrepresent what I say. I expect that behavior from some, but did expect a higher level from you.

You went on to propose this.

But I do try to do this, I just don’t need the promise of a reward as an incentive.

Let me ask you this Jim. Would you still be a nice person if you were not a ‘Christian’?

I would hope I would be a nice person regardless of my religious beliefs. My point throughout this thread and my time posting here at EvC is that the Knowledge of Right and Wrong was given to all, as was the charge to try to do right and not wrong.

Oh I see. So because I treat others as I would like to be treated that makes me a Christian?

Am I a Christian ?

No, nor have I said anywhere that how you treat people makes you a Christian. Christianity is a religion, a belief, and to be a Christian you really must first believe in GOD, believe in Jesus, that He lived, died, was resurected and accended into heaven where He sits on the right hand of the Father ...

I believe though that behavior is what will be judged after you die. If through your life you really do try to do what is right and try not to do what is wrong, if you help others, basically if you don't screw up TOO much, you will be saved.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 258 by Brian, posted 07-01-2006 8:52 AM Brian has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 261 by Brian, posted 07-01-2006 9:32 AM jar has responded

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 2456 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 260 of 300 (327943)
07-01-2006 9:25 AM
Reply to: Message 210 by MangyTiger
06-29-2006 3:34 PM


Commandments for all
Couldn't you argue that this - actually all the commandments! - are actually directed specifically at the Jews.

I think you could argue this, but the New Testament does specify that the commandments are for everyone who wishes to follow Christ.

For example, in 1 John 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

Feeling comfortable in following the commandments is an internal feeling of unity with Christ.

John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

We can go into this subject in more detail if you wish, but think about the commandments and why gentiles should be exempt. If it is only Jews who are to keep the commandments, does that mean it is okay for non-Jews to murder, steal, commit adultery and other commands?

If this is a dumbass question sorry for wasting your time

There's no such thing as a dumbass question mate, you should see me on the science threads! :laugh:

Brian.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 210 by MangyTiger, posted 06-29-2006 3:34 PM MangyTiger has not yet responded

    
Brian
Member (Idle past 2456 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 261 of 300 (327945)
07-01-2006 9:32 AM
Reply to: Message 259 by jar
07-01-2006 9:23 AM


Re: Love God, how can I do that?
Okay, I'll take this very slowly.

Do you agree that if a person loves their neighbour as they love themselves that they automatically love God?

Brian.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 259 by jar, posted 07-01-2006 9:23 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 262 by jar, posted 07-01-2006 9:40 AM Brian has responded

    
jar
Member
Posts: 29183
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 262 of 300 (327948)
07-01-2006 9:40 AM
Reply to: Message 261 by Brian
07-01-2006 9:32 AM


Re: Love God, how can I do that?
Yes.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 261 by Brian, posted 07-01-2006 9:32 AM Brian has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 263 by Brian, posted 07-01-2006 10:01 AM jar has responded

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 2456 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 263 of 300 (327952)
07-01-2006 10:01 AM
Reply to: Message 262 by jar
07-01-2006 9:40 AM


Re: Love God, how can I do that?
Would you then agree that the command to love God is redundant, since it is automatically satisfied by following the second command?

Brian


This message is a reply to:
 Message 262 by jar, posted 07-01-2006 9:40 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 264 by jar, posted 07-01-2006 10:07 AM Brian has responded

    
jar
Member
Posts: 29183
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 264 of 300 (327954)
07-01-2006 10:07 AM
Reply to: Message 263 by Brian
07-01-2006 10:01 AM


Re: Love God, how can I do that?
No, I believe the second is a general instruction on how the first is done.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 263 by Brian, posted 07-01-2006 10:01 AM Brian has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 266 by Brian, posted 07-01-2006 10:35 AM jar has responded

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 4262
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 265 of 300 (327958)
07-01-2006 10:35 AM
Reply to: Message 257 by Brian
07-01-2006 8:51 AM


Loving God
Brian writes:

So, if we are all born into a sinful condition, what is the cure?

By loving God and loving our neighbour. Loving our neighbour is straight forward.

Loving God is more open to discussion. (I'm repeating myself from earlier posts but we seem to keep covering the same ground.) Loving God in my view means loving goodness and hating evil, loving love and hating hate, loving joy and hating sorrow. We are given the free will to choose the things that God would have us choose or to reject them.


Everybody is entitled to my opinion. :)
This message is a reply to:
 Message 257 by Brian, posted 07-01-2006 8:51 AM Brian has not yet responded

    
Brian
Member (Idle past 2456 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 266 of 300 (327959)
07-01-2006 10:35 AM
Reply to: Message 264 by jar
07-01-2006 10:07 AM


Re: Love God, how can I do that?
No, I believe the second is a general instruction on how the first is done.

Now we have only got one command, to love God and here is how you do it!

Would you agree that salvation is possible with just ONE command, the love others as yourself gig, since the first 'command' is fulfilled automatically.

Brian.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 264 by jar, posted 07-01-2006 10:07 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 267 by jar, posted 07-01-2006 10:56 AM Brian has responded

    
jar
Member
Posts: 29183
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 267 of 300 (327964)
07-01-2006 10:56 AM
Reply to: Message 266 by Brian
07-01-2006 10:35 AM


Re: Love God, how can I do that?
I'm not sure what your point is. Jesus was talking to a religious folk, ones who believed in GOD, about what the religious commands were. He outlined those, that the First Command is to love GOD and the second is like unto it, love others as you love yourself. He went on to say that all the other commands and prophets hung on those two commands.

It is one continuing statement, a set of instructions.

The big command is to Love GOD. Everything else is simply the HOW of Loving GOD.

Are all the others redundant? Not in my opinion. They are explanatory, greater detail on how one should behave.

But someone who does love others as he loves himself, who does try to do right and not wrong, IS loving GOD even if that person is unaware that GOD exists or even is convinced GOD does not exist.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 266 by Brian, posted 07-01-2006 10:35 AM Brian has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 270 by Phat, posted 07-01-2006 6:06 PM jar has not yet responded
 Message 271 by Brian, posted 07-01-2006 6:24 PM jar has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9581
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 268 of 300 (328037)
07-01-2006 3:15 PM
Reply to: Message 239 by ringo
06-30-2006 12:27 PM


Whoever?
Ringo writes:

God's spirit is in all of us, from our "creation". The knowledge of good and evil is in all of us. Our better actions are the result of those two features of our "design" - not of a hands-on day-to-day "driver".

NIV writes:

John 17:20-23--I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, 21 that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. 22 I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one: 23 I in them and you in me.

From my interpretation of this scripture from Jesus, it appears that He prays that we be in Christ yet it also appears that He has imparted Himself into us. Its interesting when it says
I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message...
What do you make of that?

Also.....

John 3:16-- "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

whats with the "whoever believes" part?

Is belief any sort of prerequisite?

Edited by Phat, : correct quotes


This message is a reply to:
 Message 239 by ringo, posted 06-30-2006 12:27 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 269 by ringo, posted 07-01-2006 4:33 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 13450
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 269 of 300 (328050)
07-01-2006 4:33 PM
Reply to: Message 268 by Phat
07-01-2006 3:15 PM


Re: Whoever?
Phat writes:

whats with the "whoever believes" part?

Believing in somebody is not just believing that they exist, or even that they are who they say they are. If it was, then the vast majority of human beings who ever lived would be doomed - they didn't believe that Jesus was the Son of God.

Believing in Jesus means believing in the message that He brought, believing that "loving thy neighbour as thyself" is what God wants us to do.

Professing a belief in Jesus without doing what He told us to do is empty faith.

quote:
Jam 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
Jam 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: show me thy faith without thy works, and I will show thee my faith by my works.
Jam 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
Jam 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
Jam 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
Jam 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
Jam 2:23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
Jam 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.


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This message is a reply to:
 Message 268 by Phat, posted 07-01-2006 3:15 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 9581
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 270 of 300 (328066)
07-01-2006 6:06 PM
Reply to: Message 267 by jar
07-01-2006 10:56 AM


Re: Love God, how can I do that?
Jar writes:

But someone who does love others as he loves himself, who does try to do right and not wrong, IS loving GOD even if that person is unaware that GOD exists or even is convinced GOD does not exist.

:) I think that this sums up your beliefs quite well, jar! One thing is certain: Your beliefs are among the most controversial that we have at EvC! Ringo and you think quite similar, and I will say this to some of our more fundamental Christians:

The reason that I accept you as honest bearers of truth is because of your attitudes. I am unimpressed with someone who can quote scripture like Jack Van Impee and yet who constantly argues and bickers with everyone whom they come in contact with. Jar, you and Ringo have steadfastly explained your beliefs with nary an argument.

As for my friend from across the pond, Mr. Brian..... :)

Im gonna give you a mulligan because I believe that either you are often a bit tipsy when arguing on EvC or you simply like to stir up relevant issues in order to cause people to think.

However....what I would like to see is a column from Brian on his beliefs and why he has developed them. :)


This message is a reply to:
 Message 267 by jar, posted 07-01-2006 10:56 AM jar has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 272 by robinrohan, posted 07-01-2006 6:25 PM Phat has not yet responded
 Message 273 by Brian, posted 07-01-2006 6:29 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
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