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Author Topic:   Belief Statement - jar
jar
Member
Posts: 24595
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 31 of 300 (323860)
06-20-2006 12:38 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by Brian
06-20-2006 12:23 PM


Still struggling to find something significant in any of your post.
Brian, I really don't understand what your point is. Do I think Islam is Christianity? Well, no, they are different religions. Are the core beliefs of the different religions significantly exclusive? Sure, they are different religions.

Do I question my beliefs? Sure.

Is it possible I'm wrong? Certainly.

What is your point?

Well, what would arguably be the most important event in a Christian’s life would, IMO, at least be included in that Christian’s statement of belief, perhaps I missed it in your essay but I don’t see any personal experience of God in it.

Well, guess what? It is personal. It is between me and GOD, would convince no one else, and so has no point beyond its personal significance to me. It was not one event but a continuing, constant, on going relationship.

But, when you describe yourself as a Christian you limit YOUR beliefs.

Sure. I am a Christian. So that does define those beliefs. But they are defined for me. Others may and should hold different beliefs. It is personal.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by Brian, posted 06-20-2006 12:23 PM Brian has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by Brian, posted 06-20-2006 1:09 PM jar has responded

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 1333 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 32 of 300 (323874)
06-20-2006 1:01 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by Jazzns
06-20-2006 12:35 PM


Re: Agnostic Xian?
Where did Jar express doubt about God?

When he said: "Neither of us knows, both of us believe."

I am not picking a fight, I am sking for clarification.

Are you the arbitar of what can be considered a valid belief system?

Not at all.

But, the definitions of these faiths are incompatible.

Jar may well be a Xian, but his flavour of Christianity is incompatible with all known definitions.

Perhaps Jar's definition is correct and every other 1500 plus denominations of Xianity are mistaken.

Brian.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by Jazzns, posted 06-20-2006 12:35 PM Jazzns has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by Jazzns, posted 06-20-2006 1:38 PM Brian has responded
 Message 100 by SuperNintendo Chalmers, posted 06-25-2006 12:13 AM Brian has responded

    
Brian
Member (Idle past 1333 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 33 of 300 (323877)
06-20-2006 1:09 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by jar
06-20-2006 12:38 PM


Re: Still struggling to find something significant in any of your post.
Brian, I really don't understand what your point is.

I thought all my points were pretty clear.

Do I think Islam is Christianity? Well, no, they are different religions.

And their core teachings are incompatible, one faith denies the possibility that the other is true.

Are the core beliefs of the different religions significantly exclusive? Sure, they are different religions.

Yes, they are different religions that you are effectively mutilating.

Do I question my beliefs? Sure.

Again, I need to question if you have met God.

Is it possible I'm wrong? Certainly.
What is your point?

The point is, someone who is truly convinced that they are a Christian or a Muslim would not entertain the possibility that they are wrong.

Well, guess what? It is personal. It is between me and GOD, would convince no one else, and so has no point beyond its personal significance to me. It was not one event but a continuing, constant, on going relationship.

I don’t agree. I think more people are more people would at least take your claim to be a Christian a little more seriously if you had mentioned a relationship with God, maybe you can put it in version 2?

Sure. I am a Christian. So that does define those beliefs. But they are defined for me. Others may and should hold different beliefs. It is personal.

In a denomination with a membership of one?

Brian.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by jar, posted 06-20-2006 12:38 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by iano, posted 06-20-2006 1:16 PM Brian has responded
 Message 36 by jar, posted 06-20-2006 1:22 PM Brian has responded
 Message 40 by Jazzns, posted 06-20-2006 1:40 PM Brian has responded

    
iano
Member (Idle past 19 days)
Posts: 6163
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 34 of 300 (323882)
06-20-2006 1:16 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by Brian
06-20-2006 1:09 PM


Re: Still struggling to find something significant in any of your post.
I don’t agree. I think more people are more people would at least take your claim to be a Christian a little more seriously if you had mentioned a relationship with God, maybe you can put it in version 2?

That struck me as curious too. The soundest basis for such a belief being the very thing that is never mentioned in an essay on ones belief system. An architects drawing of a house which doesn't show the foundations?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by Brian, posted 06-20-2006 1:09 PM Brian has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by Brian, posted 06-20-2006 1:23 PM iano has not yet responded

  
sidelined 
Inactive Suspended Member


Message 35 of 300 (323884)
06-20-2006 1:20 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by jar
06-20-2006 9:19 AM


Re: Aren't they all Christians?
jar

Sorry jar. I was trying and failed to inject some humour.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by jar, posted 06-20-2006 9:19 AM jar has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 24595
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 36 of 300 (323887)
06-20-2006 1:22 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by Brian
06-20-2006 1:09 PM


Re: Still struggling to find something significant in any of your post.
Well, most of your post seems just to be rant so I'm going to ignore those and address what I can understand.

Again, I need to question if you have met God.

Okay. you are free to do so.

The point is, someone who is truly convinced that they are a Christian or a Muslim would not entertain the possibility that they are wrong.

Well, if that is true I find it sad.

I don’t agree. I think more people are more people would at least take your claim to be a Christian a little more seriously if you had mentioned a relationship with God, maybe you can put it in version 2?

That is there problem, not mine. And no, I do not plan to put that in ANY version or rendition. To steal an old song title, "'taint nobodies business but my own."

In a denomination with a membership of one?

Again, it is certainly a relationship of two, me and GOD. But I am a member of a denomination that does have a history of both internal and external controversy. Sometimes we seem to be right, often we have been wrong.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by Brian, posted 06-20-2006 1:09 PM Brian has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by Brian, posted 06-20-2006 1:27 PM jar has not yet responded

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 1333 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 37 of 300 (323890)
06-20-2006 1:23 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by iano
06-20-2006 1:16 PM


Re: Still struggling to find something significant in any of your post.
Indeed.

I have a friend who is now in America who is a born again Christian, and he certainly goes on about his experience of God and how everything became so clear to him after this experience. I couldn't imagine John even for a nanosecond thinking that he could be wrong.

I am also confused as to why, if Judaism is as valid a way to God as Christianity, would Jesus preach to a Jewish audience to inform them that their only way to salvation is through Him?

Sounds very weird to me.

I also wonder why such a great man such as Buddha Gautama, whose main principle was compassion for all beings, would lead many people away from a theistic religion into an atheistic faith.

People are free to believe what they want, but borrowing a term that doesn't fit their beliefs is a bit strange.

Brian.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by iano, posted 06-20-2006 1:16 PM iano has not yet responded

    
Brian
Member (Idle past 1333 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 38 of 300 (323894)
06-20-2006 1:27 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by jar
06-20-2006 1:22 PM


Re: Still struggling to find something significant in any of your post.
Well, most of your post seems just to be rant so I'm going to ignore those and address what I can understand.

:laugh:

No rant at all, if you find the questions beyond your intellectual capacity, then I am sorry I can't break them down anymore.

But, the questions you avoid answering certainly speak volumes.

Thanks anyway.

Bye.

Brian.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by jar, posted 06-20-2006 1:22 PM jar has not yet responded

    
Jazzns
Member (Idle past 285 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 39 of 300 (323904)
06-20-2006 1:38 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by Brian
06-20-2006 1:01 PM


Christianity is....?
When he said: "Neither of us knows, both of us believe."

How is that automatically an affirmation of doubt?

But, the definitions of these faiths are incompatible. Jar may well be a Xian, but his flavour of Christianity is incompatible with all known definitions. Perhaps Jar's definition is correct and every other 1500 plus denominations of Xianity are mistaken.

The 1500+ denominations of Christianity also believe that the other 1499+ denominations of Christianity are somehow wrong with regard to some or another subjective detail of the religion. All the specifics you are bringing up I could easily do from another perspective. From the penecostal perspective I could come and say that Jar's belief is not compatable with Christianity because he makes no mention of his infilling of the holy spirit evidenced by speaking in tongues. The only thing that is differet with you is that you are taking the subjective points that happen to be major threads in the some of the mainstream formal Christian denominations. Certainly some flavors of Methodists might disagree that there is only one right way to God. Other may have varying flavors of what is considered "saved" or not saved. Jar didn't mention his baptism. According to another major thread of most mainstream formal Christian denominations, if he is not born again of water then he is not saved.

Where do you draw the line? You seem to be putting forth a sophisticated "no true Christian" type of argument.


Of course, biblical creationists are committed to belief in God's written Word, the Bible, which forbids bearing false witness; --AIG (lest they forget)
This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by Brian, posted 06-20-2006 1:01 PM Brian has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 41 by Brian, posted 06-20-2006 1:50 PM Jazzns has not yet responded
 Message 43 by jar, posted 06-20-2006 2:02 PM Jazzns has not yet responded
 Message 46 by Brian, posted 06-20-2006 2:37 PM Jazzns has responded

  
Jazzns
Member (Idle past 285 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 40 of 300 (323906)
06-20-2006 1:40 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by Brian
06-20-2006 1:09 PM


Christianity is .....a denomination?
In a denomination with a membership of one?

To be a Christian you MUST be a member of a denomination? What about non-denominational yet still formal institutions? Can you be a Christian and not go to church at all?


Of course, biblical creationists are committed to belief in God's written Word, the Bible, which forbids bearing false witness; --AIG (lest they forget)
This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by Brian, posted 06-20-2006 1:09 PM Brian has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by Brian, posted 06-20-2006 1:52 PM Jazzns has responded

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 1333 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 41 of 300 (323912)
06-20-2006 1:50 PM
Reply to: Message 39 by Jazzns
06-20-2006 1:38 PM


Re: Christianity is....?
How is that automatically an affirmation of doubt?

Because he doesn;t know if it is true!

If you read the whole conversation, he also answers my question: "Saying that God was always there, like a part of the family, could mean you were (accidently) subjected to a kind of 'brain washing'. Is this a possibility, and if not why not? "

He replies:

Certainly that is a possibility.

So, a possibility is a doubt isn't it?

All denoms of xianity may disagree to a certain extent, but which branch of Christianity promotes Islam, Buddhism, Hindusim, Taoism, and Hinduism as valid paths to God?

Part of the problem is not that Jar's flavour of Christianity is wrong, and I haven't said he isn't a Xian, the problem is the harmonising of what his flavour of Christianity dictates that other faiths preach.

For example, the belief that Jesus is God is incompatible with Islam, Jar said it isn't simply because he said so.

It is an abomination to a Muslim to say Allah had a son who came to earth. But, Jar's Chrstianity has no problem with this.

So, IMO, Jar's christianity is making a mockery of all known faiths. it is promoting that great religious leaders have deliberately mislead their followers. It also promotes the teachings of Jesus as being lies, the earlier example being the way to God.

If Jar is happy calling himself a Xian that's up to him, I'm not saying he isn't.

But I am entitled to have my doubts.

Brian.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by Jazzns, posted 06-20-2006 1:38 PM Jazzns has not yet responded

    
Brian
Member (Idle past 1333 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 42 of 300 (323913)
06-20-2006 1:52 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by Jazzns
06-20-2006 1:40 PM


Re: Christianity is .....a denomination?
To be a Christian you MUST be a member of a denomination?

Do you know what a question mark means?

I asked him a question, I didn't make a statement.

Brian.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by Jazzns, posted 06-20-2006 1:40 PM Jazzns has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 44 by Jazzns, posted 06-20-2006 2:09 PM Brian has responded

    
jar
Member
Posts: 24595
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 43 of 300 (323919)
06-20-2006 2:02 PM
Reply to: Message 39 by Jazzns
06-20-2006 1:38 PM


Re: Christianity is....?
Jar didn't mention his baptism.

Well, kinda.

If you look at the Confirmation, you will find that it is the reaffirmation of your Baptism. In the Episcopal Church children are baptized as an infant. At that time, your parents and God-Parents assume the responsibility for your upbringing. Confirmation is that point in a persons life when you assume personal responsibility for those things.

Even there there is a communion, everyone affirms they will try to support the candidates, and all others, in living.

As to the difference between belief and knowledge, yes, many folk KNOW, and are usually quick to tell you so. I believe. I personally believe I am right, but I do realize I could be wrong.

As to the whole thread, particularly the title, "Belief Statement".

This was an attempt to put into a short statement something that took over 60 years to experience. Much was left out, far more left out than I included. I really believe the actual Belief Statement is the one you live. What I or anyone else says is not as important as what I or anyone else does.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by Jazzns, posted 06-20-2006 1:38 PM Jazzns has not yet responded

  
Jazzns
Member (Idle past 285 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 44 of 300 (323923)
06-20-2006 2:09 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by Brian
06-20-2006 1:52 PM


Re: Christianity is .....a denomination?
Do you know what a question mark means?

Why must you be condescending? Argumentative I can understand but this is uncalled for.

I asked him a question, I didn't make a statement.

The question implied that a "denomination of one" is somehow indicative of the validity of Jar's beliefs. I know you asked a question. My follow up should then have taken you on the course of why asking such a question was even important. Did you not get that? Was I not clear enough?


Of course, biblical creationists are committed to belief in God's written Word, the Bible, which forbids bearing false witness; --AIG (lest they forget)
This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by Brian, posted 06-20-2006 1:52 PM Brian has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 45 by Brian, posted 06-20-2006 2:23 PM Jazzns has responded

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 1333 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 45 of 300 (323932)
06-20-2006 2:23 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by Jazzns
06-20-2006 2:09 PM


Re: Christianity is .....a denomination?
The question was to enquire as to how many other's share Jar's beliefs. For all I know it may be a recognised branch of Christianity that I haven't heard of.

Brian.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by Jazzns, posted 06-20-2006 2:09 PM Jazzns has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 49 by Jazzns, posted 06-20-2006 3:35 PM Brian has responded

    
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