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Author Topic:   The "Digital Code" of DNA
ringo
Member
Posts: 13982
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 91 of 143 (409991)
07-12-2007 4:36 PM
Reply to: Message 88 by Fosdick
07-12-2007 2:57 PM


Re: Code above-and-beyond DNA?
Hoot Mon writes:

Linear digital codes carrying genetic information are found on only one kind of molecule—nucleic acids....

Nonsense. A code has been applied to nucleic acids to make it easier to understand the structure.

Here's water: HOH

Here's methanol: CH3OH

We can also call it: methyl-OH

"Methyl" is just a code-word for "CH3". It doesn't indicate different principles - it's just shorthand. Same thing with your supposed "digital code" in DNA. It's just a shorthand method of describing the structure of the molecule. Nothing more.

... and electromagnetic bonding principles do not explain their ordering.

For @#$#@#%$#@# sake, SHOW us how chemical bonding principles fail to explain "ordering" in nucleic acids.

... a quartz crystal has no heritable properties because it lacks serial generations to which encoded information can be passed.

And that's the only reason. The chemical principles governing a quartz crystal are identical to the principles governing nucleic acids.

Edited by Ringo, : Fixed mismatched quotes.

Edited by Ringo, : CapItaLIzAtIOn.


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This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 92 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-12-2007 4:47 PM ringo has responded

  
New Cat's Eye
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Posts: 11855
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 92 of 143 (409993)
07-12-2007 4:47 PM
Reply to: Message 91 by ringo
07-12-2007 4:36 PM


Re: Code above-and-beyond DNA?
A code has been applied to nucleic acids to make it easier to understand the structure.

That's what I'm sayin'.

Why can Hoot not understand this? Is he just being disingenuous?


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ringo
Member
Posts: 13982
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 93 of 143 (409995)
07-12-2007 4:59 PM
Reply to: Message 92 by New Cat's Eye
07-12-2007 4:47 PM


Re: Code above-and-beyond DNA?
Catholic Scientist writes:

Why can Hoot not understand this? Is he just being disingenuous?

I dunno. :rolleyes: This is about the fourth thread where I've tried to get through to him.

In 1972, when Nixon was re-elected, defeating McGovern, somebody quipped that, "America would rather have a smart crook than an honest fool as president." I try to take people at their word and accept that they really are as dopey as they pretend to be.


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Fosdick 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3115 days)
Posts: 1793
From: Upper Slobovia
Joined: 12-11-2006


Message 94 of 143 (410013)
07-12-2007 7:22 PM
Reply to: Message 93 by ringo
07-12-2007 4:59 PM


Re: Code above-and-beyond DNA?
I may be a little dopey, mainly for trying to reason with you guys, but I am not disingenuous. There are simply no credible molecular biologists I know of that would deny the unambiguous biological existence of a genetic code. If either you or CS are denying it then you are doing so for reasons apart from science. You would have to be very uninformed to deny the natural existence of a genetic code, and that it is digital. But if you wanted to argue that everything is metaphor, then you could always say that genetic code is just a popular way of speaking that reflects contemporary computer concepts, or some dodge like that. I'm not saying this and neither are credible molecular biologists. We're saying that there is a real, actual, and unambiguous genetic code that engages nucleotides as digits to hold heritable information about the expression of proteins. The code has a celebrated alphabet, but it lacks syntactical meaning and therefore does not qualify as a language (according to Chomsky).

btw: What kind of proteins do rock produce? And do they pass that ability on to their little stone children?

—HM


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ringo
Member
Posts: 13982
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 95 of 143 (410017)
07-12-2007 7:36 PM
Reply to: Message 94 by Fosdick
07-12-2007 7:22 PM


Re: Code above-and-beyond DNA?
Hoot Mon writes:

We're saying that there is a real, actual, and unambiguous genetic code that engages nucleotides as digits to hold heritable information about the expression of proteins.

Instead of repeating and repeating that empty claim, why not produce some evidence?

I am saying that all elephants are mammals. If you claim to have discovered a reptilephant, the onus is on you to produce the evidence.

I'm also saying that all molecules follow the same chemical principles. If you claim to have discovered an exception, the onus is on you to produce the evidence.

I have asked you and asked you and asked you to produce the evidence for your claims and all you have produced is nothing and nothing and nothing.

What kind of proteins do rock produce? And do they pass that ability on to their little stone children?

You really aren't paying attention, are you?

I have said repeatedly that different molecules have different behaviours and undergo different reactions to produce different products. But no molecule operates under different principles.

There's nothing magical about producing proteins - it's just another product of just another reaction.


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Fosdick 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3115 days)
Posts: 1793
From: Upper Slobovia
Joined: 12-11-2006


Message 96 of 143 (410019)
07-12-2007 7:44 PM
Reply to: Message 95 by ringo
07-12-2007 7:36 PM


Re: Code above-and-beyond DNA?
Instead of repeating and repeating that empty claim, why not produce some evidence?

What would it take if Watson and Crick are not enough?
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Replies to this message:
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ringo
Member
Posts: 13982
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 97 of 143 (410020)
07-12-2007 7:50 PM
Reply to: Message 96 by Fosdick
07-12-2007 7:44 PM


Re: Code above-and-beyond DNA?
Hoot Mon writes:

What would it take if Watson and Crick are not enough?

All you did was drop their names. You haven't shown in any way that they agree with you.


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Replies to this message:
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Fosdick 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3115 days)
Posts: 1793
From: Upper Slobovia
Joined: 12-11-2006


Message 98 of 143 (410022)
07-12-2007 7:59 PM
Reply to: Message 97 by ringo
07-12-2007 7:50 PM


Re: Code above-and-beyond DNA?
OK. Try this: You can order genes through the Internet (if you're a qualified scientist, I assume). How is this done? By specifying the code—the digital code: TACAGGCTACTA...
This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Fosdick 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3115 days)
Posts: 1793
From: Upper Slobovia
Joined: 12-11-2006


Message 99 of 143 (410024)
07-12-2007 8:03 PM
Reply to: Message 97 by ringo
07-12-2007 7:50 PM


Re: Code above-and-beyond DNA?
Ringo, are you saying the equivalent of this: 'A Ford is nothing more than summation of its parts. There is no Fordness that goes beyond the physical automobile itself.'

—HM


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ringo
Member
Posts: 13982
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 100 of 143 (410025)
07-12-2007 8:11 PM
Reply to: Message 98 by Fosdick
07-12-2007 7:59 PM


Hoot Mon writes:

You can order genes through the Internet....

And what can those genes do? Can they produce proteins?

'A Ford is nothing more than summation of its parts. There is no Fordness that goes beyond the physical automobile itself.'

Show me the Fordness.


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Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3464 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 101 of 143 (410059)
07-13-2007 2:18 AM
Reply to: Message 67 by ringo
07-12-2007 10:03 AM


Re: Dean Kenyon
Ringo, Let me come at this from another vantage point and explain why the video clips I linked do argue for DNA in fact being digital code. For the record (I'll say it again) the whole problem of origin was never intended by me to be part of the argument for digital code. I addressed the question of origin only as a defense of Matt P's (probably innocent) misunderstanding of the problem that confounded Dean kenyon. I did not want anyone left with the wrong impression; especially Matt P.

Quite frankly, I care more for his opinion than yours Ringo. Isn't it interesting that he remains silent. But bloody nose or not, I'm going to try and pick you.

You have made it to look as though I was addressing the wrong topic. But you have never actually made any comment whatsoever about what I presented to Hoot Mon. You've disregarded it entirely as has anyone else who wishes to challenge the case.

So let's take a deep breath and sing cumebya ( however it's spelled).

If you watch the end of the 'Harvard BioVisions' clip, or the end of clip #5 and beginning of clip #6 of Dr. Kenyons problem, you will get two differently sourced versions of the same emperical fact. I will provide the link once again for your immediate convenience: http://www.detectingdesign.com/abiogenesis.html Just scroll down to the BioVisions clip or the Kenyon clip, click play...

That fact, which is clearly enunciated and illustrated, is that the Ribosome translates DNA into amino acid chains.

Here is one illustration of a ribosome attached to a strand of RNA and secreting the appropriate amino acid chain based on the genetic code for that particular protein.

Here is how Wikipedia describes the ribosome's function:

A ribosome is a small, dense organelle in cells that assembles proteins. Ribosomes are about 20nm in diameter and are composed of 65% ribosomal RNA and 35% ribosomal proteins (known as a Ribonucleoprotein or RNP). It translates messenger RNA (mRNA) to build a polypeptide chain (e.g., a protein)

Question: What does a ribosome translate?

Answer: It translates the digital sequence contained in the DNA (for the specified protein) that has been 'transcibed' to an RNA messenger based upon the arrangement of four chemical digits known as A,T,C,G and delivered to the ribosome for translation. As the clips show, there is far more going on than that, so we're simplifying the argument so as to appease your appetite for clarity and specificity.

If the chemicals themselves are the code for each protein (as you keep suggesting), then we would have as as many digits as proteins. But... the fact is that there are approximately 30 thousand different known proteins based upon the arrangement of only four chemical digits.

Furthermore, the binary system of computer software contains 2 digits. The 4 digits in every organisms genetic structure equates to a 'quadnary' language (a term which does not yet exist to my knowledge, but is quite useful (Ironically, when I searched for the term, the only match that came up was the word 'quandary')) :laugh:

So... it seems to me, that if DNA is not a digital code, then nothing, including our best software, is a digital code.

It would be helpful for your position if the code in the living cell was less sophisticated... not more. But the reality of the situation (the emperical and scientific fact) is just the opposite.

I ask that you slow down for the sake of reason, and be courageous enough (like Dean kenyon) to recognize a spade for a spade. He had far more invested than you do; yet, he capitulated...

Edited by Rob, : No reason given.

Edited by Rob, : No reason given.

Edited by Rob, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by ringo, posted 07-12-2007 10:03 AM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 102 by Wounded King, posted 07-13-2007 2:55 AM Rob has responded
 Message 103 by ringo, posted 07-13-2007 3:30 AM Rob has responded
 Message 104 by Modulous, posted 07-13-2007 4:27 AM Rob has responded
 Message 115 by Matt P, posted 07-13-2007 2:57 PM Rob has responded

    
Wounded King
Member (Idle past 1710 days)
Posts: 4149
From: Edinburgh, Scotland
Joined: 04-09-2003


Message 102 of 143 (410062)
07-13-2007 2:55 AM
Reply to: Message 101 by Rob
07-13-2007 2:18 AM


Re: Dean Kenyon
But... the fact is that there are approximately 30 thousand different known proteins based upon the arrangement of only four chemical digits.

Come on Rob, just reading this it comes out as either stupid or disingenuous.

Surely it should say ...

"But... the fact is that there are approximately 30 thousand different known proteins based upon the arrangement of sequences of lengths varying from hundreds to thousands of digits composed of four distinct chemical digits."

In your computer analogy it is like saying that because computers operate in binary they can only do 2 things. To take a non-code example it is like saying that because there are only ~118 elements in the periodic table then there can only be 118 materials. It is the combinatorial structural composition which produces different materials and similarly produces differnt protein coding sequences.

TTFN,

WK


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 Message 101 by Rob, posted 07-13-2007 2:18 AM Rob has responded

Replies to this message:
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ringo
Member
Posts: 13982
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 103 of 143 (410065)
07-13-2007 3:30 AM
Reply to: Message 101 by Rob
07-13-2007 2:18 AM


Re: Dean Kenyon
Rob writes:

You have made it to look as though I was addressing the wrong topic. But you have never actually made any comment whatsoever about what I presented to Hoot Mon.

Nothing you have said addresses the simple fact: The only "code" involved is a shorthand invented by scientists to describe complex molecules.


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This message is a reply to:
 Message 101 by Rob, posted 07-13-2007 2:18 AM Rob has responded

Replies to this message:
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Modulous
Member
Posts: 7537
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 104 of 143 (410067)
07-13-2007 4:27 AM
Reply to: Message 101 by Rob
07-13-2007 2:18 AM


fyi
The 4 digits in every organisms genetic structure equates to a 'quadnary' language (a term which does not yet exist to my knowledge, but is quite useful (Ironically, when I searched for the term, the only match that came up was the word 'quandary'))

A term exists for base four, it is known as Quaternary.


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Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3464 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 105 of 143 (410111)
07-13-2007 9:12 AM
Reply to: Message 104 by Modulous
07-13-2007 4:27 AM


Re: fyi
Thank you for that Mod...
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