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Author Topic:   first genetic material
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 5772
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 9.3


Message 61 of 84 (508126)
05-10-2009 8:05 PM
Reply to: Message 59 by dpeele
05-10-2009 7:22 PM


Re: Fortuitous happenstances
quote:
What is the origin of the primeval atom?

You have shown a propensity to not stay on topic. I will no longer respond to your off topic posts and I hope others also decide not to respond either. I regret wasting this post, but I feel you need to have it spelled out very clearly to you.

STAY ON TOPIC

Atoms are not genetic material. Maybe you didn't know that.
Anyone can go to Wiki and copy irrelevant quotes. Your posts and your attempts at research have just highlighted your ignorance.

If you want to discuss the first moments of the start of the universe. Start a thread.

If you want to discuss the "primeval atom". Start a thread.

Please stop wasting posts on off topic drivel.


Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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dpeele
Junior Member (Idle past 2994 days)
Posts: 21
Joined: 04-28-2009


Message 62 of 84 (508127)
05-10-2009 8:10 PM
Reply to: Message 61 by Theodoric
05-10-2009 8:05 PM


Re: Fortuitous happenstances
That's what I thought... no answer.
This message is a reply to:
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Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 15960
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 5.6


Message 63 of 84 (508130)
05-10-2009 8:41 PM
Reply to: Message 60 by dpeele
05-10-2009 8:04 PM


Re: Fortuitous happenstances
What was that something? Why not a being doing magic that exists outside of time and space, as absurd as it sounds.

Why not? you ask.

Well, sure, but why?

"God can make a cow out of a tree, but has He ever done so? Therefore show some reason why a thing is so, or cease to hold that it is so." - William of Conches, c. 1150 A.D.

As to why not, I would point out that typically, when we do find out the reason for something, the reason turns out not to be miraculous. Indeed, I have never witnessed any event of which the cause, when discovered, turned out to be supernatural. On this empirical basis, we must take the existence of a naturalistic explanation for as yet unexplained phenomena to be the default assumption until positive evidence is shown to the contrary.

"Men think epilepsy divine, merely because they do not understand it. But if they called everything divine which they do not understand, there would be no end of divine things." - Hippocrates, 4th century B.C.

I mean...

quote:
Something must have produced an excess of matter over anti-matter, because this excess exists.

does not convince me either.

Why not? I merely observe that something must have caused it to be the case, because it is in fact the case.

Do you deny that there is, in fact, an excess of matter over antimatter, or do you deny that this fact does indeed have a cause?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by dpeele, posted 05-10-2009 8:04 PM dpeele has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 67 by dpeele, posted 05-10-2009 8:55 PM Dr Adequate has responded

  
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 15960
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 5.6


Message 64 of 84 (508131)
05-10-2009 8:47 PM
Reply to: Message 59 by dpeele
05-10-2009 7:22 PM


Re: Fortuitous happenstances
What is the origin of the primeval atom?

Well, Lemaître, being a Roman Catholic priest, thought that God made it. Indeed, the Pope at the time trumpeted the Big Bang as proof of a Creator.

There are other opinions as to the origin of the Universe, but as has been pointed out, this is not just the wrong thread but the wrong forum for it. This is the "Origin of Life" subforum, you want "Cosmology and the Big Bang".

---

I might point out, however, that Lemaître's notion of a "primordial atom" was wrong. Lemaître knew relativity but not quantum theory.


This message is a reply to:
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lyx2no
Member (Idle past 2275 days)
Posts: 1277
From: A vast, undifferentiated plane.
Joined: 02-28-2008


Message 65 of 84 (508132)
05-10-2009 8:49 PM
Reply to: Message 59 by dpeele
05-10-2009 7:22 PM


Are We There Yet, Mum?
I'm guessing that it would take me a month to walk from Boston to Chicago. Is it your statement that it could take 15.756489347 seconds or a billions years - that I don't know?

Sounds pretty weak to me.


Genesis 2
17 But of the ponderosa pine, thou shalt not eat of it; for in the day that thou shinniest thereof thou shalt sorely learn of thy nakedness.
18 And we all live happily ever after.
This message is a reply to:
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onifre
Member (Idle past 509 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 66 of 84 (508133)
05-10-2009 8:54 PM
Reply to: Message 59 by dpeele
05-10-2009 7:22 PM


Re: Fortuitous happenstances
What is the origin of the primeval atom?

If you're just going to quote mine wiki then you are not here for honest inquery.

Your question is off topic, as Theo pointed out to you.

You don't even understand what Lemaitre's theory explains and what the "primeval atom" actually signifies. Once again your layman senses have failed you. Instead of asking "where did it come from", like you know or you have some secret to share, try asking WHAT IS IT, first?

But, not on this thread.

(1) Are you satisfied with how the elements originate?

(2) How these elements get to be part of a planets make up?

(3) How these elements in proper combination form genetic structures?

Those 3 questions are related to THIS topic. Stick to it that way we can get past the original misconceptions in your initial questions.

- Oni


"I smoke pot. If this bothers anyone, I suggest you look around at the world in which we live and shut your mouth."--Bill Hicks

"I never knew there was another option other than to question everything"--Noam Chomsky


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dpeele
Junior Member (Idle past 2994 days)
Posts: 21
Joined: 04-28-2009


Message 67 of 84 (508134)
05-10-2009 8:55 PM
Reply to: Message 63 by Dr Adequate
05-10-2009 8:41 PM


Re: Fortuitous happenstances
I can't deny its existence. however, neither of us have the answer to the "something", so we will have to wonder what that "something" was and believe what we believe. I don't know what is it was, but you can't tell me either (but it was definitely not a Being).
This message is a reply to:
 Message 63 by Dr Adequate, posted 05-10-2009 8:41 PM Dr Adequate has responded

Replies to this message:
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onifre
Member (Idle past 509 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 68 of 84 (508136)
05-10-2009 9:04 PM
Reply to: Message 67 by dpeele
05-10-2009 8:55 PM


Re: Fortuitous happenstances
however, neither of us have the answer to the "something", so we will have to wonder what that "something" was and believe what we believe.

What made the Sun rise?

What made the planets orbit?

What made billions of galaxies?

What made a solar eclipse?

What made H2 O water?

What made trees grow?

What made the moon?

What is expanding the universe?

There... There are a bunch of things of which you can either answer "God did it" or "I don't know, but lets research it"...

Would you like to jump to conclusions and say "God did it all", "God did some of it", or wait for the results from the folks studying it?

- Oni


"I smoke pot. If this bothers anyone, I suggest you look around at the world in which we live and shut your mouth."--Bill Hicks

"I never knew there was another option other than to question everything"--Noam Chomsky


This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by dpeele, posted 05-10-2009 8:55 PM dpeele has responded

Replies to this message:
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dpeele
Junior Member (Idle past 2994 days)
Posts: 21
Joined: 04-28-2009


Message 69 of 84 (508137)
05-10-2009 9:06 PM
Reply to: Message 57 by Theodoric
05-10-2009 6:45 PM


Re: Fortuitous happenstances
Nice paste... I don't need to know about the quarks,antiquarks, leptons and photons... although an interest read. I would like an explaination for the "unknown reaction" that violated the conservation a little over 13 billions years ago.

Which according to the article [quote]"The baryon number is nearly conserved in all interactions of the Standard Model.[quote]"

And

quote:
Currently, there is no experimental evidence of particle interactions where the conservation of baryon number is broken perturbatively: this would appear to suggest that all observed particle reactions have equal baryon number before and after.

I've taken a shot at your question... now tell me where did the "primeval atom" originate?


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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 Message 72 by Dr Adequate, posted 05-10-2009 9:18 PM dpeele has not yet responded
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onifre
Member (Idle past 509 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 70 of 84 (508141)
05-10-2009 9:14 PM
Reply to: Message 69 by dpeele
05-10-2009 9:06 PM


Re: Fortuitous happenstances
I've taken a shot at your question... now tell me where did the "primeval atom" originate?

NOT ON TOPIC


"I smoke pot. If this bothers anyone, I suggest you look around at the world in which we live and shut your mouth."--Bill Hicks

"I never knew there was another option other than to question everything"--Noam Chomsky


This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by dpeele, posted 05-10-2009 9:06 PM dpeele has not yet responded

    
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 15960
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 5.6


Message 71 of 84 (508142)
05-10-2009 9:15 PM
Reply to: Message 67 by dpeele
05-10-2009 8:55 PM


Re: Fortuitous happenstances
I can't deny its existence. however, neither of us have the answer to the "something", so we will have to wonder what that "something" was and believe what we believe. I don't know what is it was, but you can't tell me either (but it was definitely not a Being).

I did not say that it was definitely not anything.

You can "believe what you believe", if you like. I'll believe that I don't know. This seems to me to be a more honest approach, given that I do not, in fact, know.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by dpeele, posted 05-10-2009 8:55 PM dpeele has not yet responded

  
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 15960
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 5.6


Message 72 of 84 (508143)
05-10-2009 9:18 PM
Reply to: Message 69 by dpeele
05-10-2009 9:06 PM


Re: Fortuitous happenstances
Nice paste... I don't need to know about the quarks,antiquarks, leptons and photons... although an interest read. I would like an explaination for the "unknown reaction" that violated the conservation a little over 13 billions years ago.

So the only thing you want to know is the one thing you can find that no-one knows yet?

Then want must be your master.

Which according to the article "The baryon number is nearly conserved in all interactions of the Standard Model."

Note the word "nearly".

I've taken a shot at your question... now tell me where did the "primeval atom" originate?

As I've pointed out, there wasn't one.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by dpeele, posted 05-10-2009 9:06 PM dpeele has not yet responded

  
Son
Member (Idle past 1388 days)
Posts: 346
From: France,Paris
Joined: 03-11-2009


Message 73 of 84 (508147)
05-10-2009 10:03 PM
Reply to: Message 62 by dpeele
05-10-2009 8:10 PM


Re: Fortuitous happenstances
Is being dishonest a requirement for being creationist? He told you it's not on topic. If you want to discuss this, there's the big bang and cosmology thread. Just READ THE RULES.
This message is a reply to:
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Son
Member (Idle past 1388 days)
Posts: 346
From: France,Paris
Joined: 03-11-2009


Message 74 of 84 (508149)
05-10-2009 10:12 PM
Reply to: Message 69 by dpeele
05-10-2009 9:06 PM


Re: Fortuitous happenstances
If you are so willfully ignorant, how would you know what you need to know or not to understand such a complex explaination? And btw, take it to ANOTHER THREAD.
Here is where you should go: www.evcforum.net/cgi-bin/dm.cgi?action=msg&f=2&t=286&m=1 -->www.evcforum.net/cgi-bin/dm.cgi?action=msg&f=2&t=286&m=1">http://www.evcforum.net/cgi-bin/dm.cgi?action=msg&f=2&t=286&m=1
I have to say that if you had been honestly searching, you would have taken this discussion to this thread already. It took me less than one minute to find it.

Edited by Son, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
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dpeele
Junior Member (Idle past 2994 days)
Posts: 21
Joined: 04-28-2009


Message 75 of 84 (508153)
05-10-2009 11:51 PM
Reply to: Message 68 by onifre
05-10-2009 9:04 PM


Re: Fortuitous happenstances
The point is we don't know. We can re-engineer the universe back to a certain point and then have to say "I don't know what this is, how it got here or how it works". Science has answered miriads of questions only to uncover others. Like the ones you have asked...

When we started our thread my purpose was never to dispute scientific facts. I am testing the logic of the theory. My thought in regards to the origin of the universe is the theories backs into unprovable assumptions.

I have posed similar questions to creationists and they go back as far back as a Being with no beginning, no end, all powerful, etc... with no other explanation.

Both positions appear to build on or back into unapprovable assumptions. I'm in the "I don't know, but let's research it camp", but I can't tell someone this is how it happened when there are so many unknowns.

Still reading through the links...


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