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Author Topic:   Questions of Reliability and/or Authorship
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 172 of 321 (476305)
07-22-2008 6:30 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by autumnman
06-26-2008 8:31 PM


Original manuscripts?
The Samaritan Pentateuch as compared to the Masoretic Hebrew Torah present variations in the Kethib {letter} consonantal Text. Which Kethib Hebrew Text is the most accurate and/or reliable? Is the Alexandrian-Greek translation of the Hebrew Scriptures equal in content and authority to either the Samaritan Pentateuch or the Masoretic Kethib Hebrew Torah, Prophesies & Scriptures?
I'm not entirely certain of what you are asking. Are you asking which manuscripts are the most like the originals?

“I know where I am and who I am. I'm on the brink of disillusionment, on the eve of bitter sweet. I'm perpetually one step away from either collapse or rebirth. I am exactly where I need to be. Either way I go towards rebirth, for a total collapse often brings a rebirth." -Andrew Jaramillo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by autumnman, posted 06-26-2008 8:31 PM autumnman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 175 by autumnman, posted 07-22-2008 10:33 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 180 of 321 (476435)
07-23-2008 7:33 PM
Reply to: Message 175 by autumnman
07-22-2008 10:33 PM


Re: Original manuscripts?
Since the “originals” no longer exist it is difficult to say which manuscripts would be most like them. Though not originals of the Hebrew Tanakh, the Dead Sea Scrolls have afforded some insight into what post-Exilic Jews regarded as “Reliable Source Hebrew Texts.” The Kethib Hebrew Masoretic Text (BHS) appears to be comparable in many ways to the Dead Sea Scrolls Tanakh manuscripts. However, there are some slight differences, according to scholars. The Kethib BHS Tanakh is also quite similar to the Paleo-Hebrew Samaritan Pentateuch, though again there are some differences.
As for the Alexandrian Greek Septuagint translation of the Hebrew Scriptures, the Septuagint is an expositor translation and is quite different than the Hebrew and Samaritan Scriptures.
Does that help answer your question?
Indeed it does. Thank you for clarifying.
I would first remind people that transcribing was considered a professional career in antiquity. Obviously no printing presses or photocopy machines existed, and so, it was the scribe who was trained to copy documents. In an age where illiteracy was prevalent, the scribe was the exception to the rule.
Now, you ask which manuscript is probably the most accurate. Since we don't have the originals, finding out which documents are the most accurate is difficult to ascertain, for the simple fact that there is nothing to contrast it with except other documents of the same nature.
But we should remember that the task for the scribe was usually an undertaking assigned to a devout Jew. That would at least insinuate that the scribes believed they were dealing with the very Word of God and therefore, were extremely careful in transposing documents. And from what we do know, this was an arduous and meticulous task, exhibiting detail and reproof.
Now, on to your specific question. The earliest complete copy of the Hebrew Tenakh dates from 900 AD, that is until the Dead Sea Scrolls were uncovered. What we know of the transcription process was that it involved a numbering system. The texts were all in capital letters, and there was no punctuation or paragraphs. Because of this, the Massoretes would copy any given book of the Tenakh, and when they completed it, they would count the total number of letters. Then they would find the middle of the book by extrapolate backwards using the number/letter system. If even one ”jot’ (equivalent to an apostrophe) or ”tittle’ (equivalent to the dotting of an ”i’ or crossing of a ”t’) were missing, they would take the document and throw it away. If the book were not an exact replica, they would start over. Not to mention, that at least two scribes wrote together for added assurance. All the present copies of the Hebrew text are in remarkable agreement. Moreover, comparisons of the Massoretic text to the Greek Septuagint and the Latin Vulgate revealed the careful transposing. Very little deviation has ever been found.
BUT, as you have shared, there are some differences between them, which obviously means that they are not an exact match. That means some textual errors were indeed made. So, that still didn't answer which document was the closest to the original. The DSS helped to clear up some of the discrepancies.
Where the DSS ties into the Massoretic text is shown in the comparison. The Essenes and Masorites were extremely close to one another in accuracy. Only 17 letters were found different by contrast. You might think that is a lot, but when I say they were different, it’s like the difference between "honor" and "honour." They produced no change to the meaning of the text whatsoever. Out of it all, only one word was truly questionable, but even it did not change the effect of the meaning. Therefore, we can easily deduce that the Massorites were extremely loyal in their copying of the text.
It is my understanding that, although the Septuagint is impressive, the Massoretic text was more accurate to the DSS, which, again, is the earliest known transcript. Whether any of them is close to the original is of course speculative, however, given what I've gone over previously, it makes it more reasonable that the Bible has generally been well preserved.

“I know where I am and who I am. I'm on the brink of disillusionment, on the eve of bitter sweet. I'm perpetually one step away from either collapse or rebirth. I am exactly where I need to be. Either way I go towards rebirth, for a total collapse often brings a rebirth." -Andrew Jaramillo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 175 by autumnman, posted 07-22-2008 10:33 PM autumnman has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 181 by Dawn Bertot, posted 07-23-2008 10:35 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 182 of 321 (476447)
07-23-2008 10:58 PM
Reply to: Message 181 by Dawn Bertot
07-23-2008 10:35 PM


Re: Original manuscripts?
NJ we have have been discussing these items a long time now and Your comments are appreciated. I would like to know your exact positon on the Bible, as you stated that you believed it had been perserved very well. Do you consider it a product of man or inspired by God or both,or are you not certain or do you even care
I think it is inspired by God and produced by man, but I am also open to other possibilities.

“I know where I am and who I am. I'm on the brink of disillusionment, on the eve of bitter sweet. I'm perpetually one step away from either collapse or rebirth. I am exactly where I need to be. Either way I go towards rebirth, for a total collapse often brings a rebirth." -Andrew Jaramillo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 181 by Dawn Bertot, posted 07-23-2008 10:35 PM Dawn Bertot has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 184 by autumnman, posted 07-23-2008 11:06 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 186 of 321 (476460)
07-24-2008 12:23 AM
Reply to: Message 178 by Dawn Bertot
07-23-2008 3:46 AM


Re: God
What would the specific facts or information that you do not have, as you did not actually see God do these things, be called? In other words, you were not there when this happened. What word beside Faith would you use to fill in this missing data.
Well, Bertot any time we are dealing with the origin of the universe some amount of "faith" is required since no one was there to view it. There is an chicken and egg problem which has been relentlessly pursued by theologians, philosophers, and scientists for millennia.
You shouldn't assume that "faith" is some how a negative attribute of the feeble-minded when it isn't.
Again if the universe, cosmos or whatever, is eternal, do you know with absolute proof know that God is its source, could it (life within the universe}not be a product of itself and its eternal process of cosmological evolution?
Nobody knows anything about the beginning of the cosmos with absolute certainty. It is all speculation. Some speculation is based on evidence, but there are no concrete answers. Secondly, without God there is an ad infinitum reduction that has to be made. It does not mean that the God of the Bible or the Qur'an or whatever is God. What it does mean is that something outside of timespace would have to exist eternally in order for life to have begun. Because quite simply, nothing produces nothing.
That said, we can make some philosophical and logical deductions. Some people ask if God can be eternal, then why not the universe. A simple deduction based on reason and logic. No faith necessary. The universe could not be eternal for the sole fact that it would be infinite. Why can't it be infinite, you ask? Well, for starters, if the universe were infinite, then scientific observation via the Hubble Redshift would not be present, and the Big Bang theory would crumble to pieces.
Secondly, if the universe were infinite, then everything therein would be infinite. This of course is impossible since we witness the stellar deaths, and more simply, because new people are continually being born. You cannot add or subtract from infinity, therefore it is logically inconsistent to assume a timeless universe.
Does that necessitate and facilitate a God? No, it doesn't automatically mean we have to assume God. But neither is the concept of God one-dimentional.
You employ terms such as the mystery of life and with the same breath indicate that faith is not required. This alone is nonsensical and contradictory. If you cannot explain the source or parts ofthe mystery itself, it doubtful you you can demonstrate it from a physical stand point. What do you say freakshow, ha ha
There really is no need to be hostile with the man. He is simply answering the questions posed to him in the best way he can. Can you demonstrate, from a physical standpoint, that something comes from nothing? If you cannot do this, should we refer to you as a freakshow?

“I know where I am and who I am. I'm on the brink of disillusionment, on the eve of bitter sweet. I'm perpetually one step away from either collapse or rebirth. I am exactly where I need to be. Either way I go towards rebirth, for a total collapse often brings a rebirth." -Andrew Jaramillo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 178 by Dawn Bertot, posted 07-23-2008 3:46 AM Dawn Bertot has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 187 by Dawn Bertot, posted 07-24-2008 12:45 AM Hyroglyphx has not replied
 Message 191 by autumnman, posted 07-24-2008 11:28 AM Hyroglyphx has replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 197 of 321 (476551)
07-24-2008 4:48 PM
Reply to: Message 191 by autumnman
07-24-2008 11:28 AM


Re: God
Beautifully said! I am in complete agreement with all of your comments in this post.
Wow... That's a rarity for me around here. Thanks for the kind words.
What I have been attempting to demonstrate is the difference between "faith" and "conjecture".
Yes, there is a world of difference. I usually try and distinguish between blind faith and an informed faith. For whatever reason, the word "faith" takes on a negative context because it sometimes cannot reasonably be explained in its totality through science or other means.
It is like love. We know so much about it from personal experience, but we cannot begin to know the depths of it from some sort of pragmatic viewpoint.
The view I have of “extrapolation & conjecture” {beginning one’s deductive reasoning from what is a know fact and inferring what may be based on what is confirmed and supported by reality} does not cause a human being to suspend one’s mental faculty of reason or abandon one’s disbelief. Though one may not be absolutely correct, the individual is less likely to claim divine authority in support of one’s subjective conclusions. By not claiming divine authority one’s conclusions can be challenged and refined thus opening the door to constructive debate as opposed to religious conflict.
Beautifully written, which reminds me of a story, if you'll oblige me.
In their second chapter Gaius and Titius quote the well-known story of Coleridge at the waterfall. You remember that there were two tourists present: that one called it 'sublime' and the other 'pretty'; and that Coleridge mentally endorsed the first judgement and rejected the second with disgust. Gaius and Titius comment as follows: 'When the man said This is sublime, he appeared to be making a remark about the waterfall... Actually ... he was not making a remark about the waterfall, but a remark about his own feelings. What he was saying was really I have feelings associated in my mind with the word "Sublime", or shortly, I have sublime feelings' Here are a good many deep questions settled in a pretty summary fashion. But the authors are not yet finished. They add: 'This confusion is continually present in language as we use it. We appear to be saying something very important about something: and actually we are only saying something about our own feelings.'1
Before considering the issues really raised by this momentous little paragraph (designed, you will remember, for 'the upper forms of schools') we must eliminate one mere confusion into which Gaius and Titius have fallen. Even on their own view”on any conceivable view”the man who says This is sublime cannot mean I have sublime feelings. Even if it were granted that such qualities as sublimity were simply and solely projected into things from our own emotions, yet the emotions which prompt the projection are the correlatives, and therefore almost the opposites, of the qualities projected. The feelings which make a man call an object sublime are not sublime feelings but feelings of veneration. If This is sublime is to be reduced at all to a statement about the speaker's feelings, the proper translation would be I have humble feelings. If the view held by Gaius and Titius were consistently applied it would lead to obvious absurdities. It would force them to maintain that You are contemptible means I have contemptible feelings', in fact that Your feelings are contemptible means My feelings are contemptible. But we need not delay over this which is the very pons asinorum of our subject. It would be unjust to Gaius and Titius themselves to emphasize what was doubtless a mere inadvertence.
The schoolboy who reads this passage in The Green Book will believe two propositions: firstly, that all sentences containing a predicate of value are statements about the emotional state of the speaker, and secondly, that all such statements are unimportant. It is true that Gaius and Titius have said neither of these things in so many words. They have treated only one particular predicate of value (sublime) as a word descriptive of the speaker's emotions. The pupils are left to do for themselves the work of extending the same treatment to all predicates of value: and no slightest obstacle to such extension is placed in their way. The authors may or may not desire the extension: they may never have given the question five minutes' serious thought in their lives. I am not concerned with what they desired but with the effect their book will certainly have on the schoolboy's mind. In the same way, they have not said that judgements of value are unimportant. Their words are that we 'appear to be saying something very important' when in reality we are 'only saying something about our own feelings'. No schoolboy will be able to resist the suggestion brought to bear upon him by that word only. I do not mean, of course, that he will make any conscious inference from what he reads to a general philosophical theory that all values are subjective and trivial. The very power of Gaius and Titius depends on the fact that they are dealing with a boy: a boy who thinks he is 'doing' his 'English prep' and has no notion that ethics, theology, and politics are all at stake. It is not a theory they put into his mind, but an assumption, which ten years hence, its origin forgotten and its presence unconscious, will condition him to take one side in a controversy which he has never recognized as a controversy at all. The authors themselves, I suspect, hardly know what they are doing to the boy, and he cannot know what is being done to him...
The operation of The Green Book and its kind is to produce what may be called Men without Chests. It is an outrage that they should be commonly spoken of as Intellectuals. This gives them the chance to say that he who attacks them attacks Intelligence. It is not so. They are not distinguished from other men by any unusual skill in finding truth nor any virginal ardour to pursue her. Indeed it would be strange if they were: a persevering devotion to truth, a nice sense of intellectual honour, cannot be long maintained without the aid of a sentiment which Gaius and Titius could debunk as easily as any other. It is not excess of thought but defect of fertile and generous emotion that marks them out. Their heads are no bigger than the ordinary: it is the atrophy of the chest beneath that makes them seem so.
And all the time”such is the tragi-comedy of our situation”we continue to clamour for those very qualities we are rendering impossible. You can hardly open a periodical without coming across the statement that what our civilization needs is more 'drive', or dynamism, or self-sacrifice, or 'creativity'. In a sort of ghastly simplicity we remove the organ and demand the function. We make men without chests and expect of them virtue and enterprise. We laugh at honour and are shocked to find traitors in our midst. We castrate and bid the geldings be fruitful.
" - C.S. Lewis; The Abolition of Man
Perhaps, NJ, you can assist me in this challenge. I can use all the insight, knowledge, and literary assistance you can muster.
Sure thing.

“I know where I am and who I am. I'm on the brink of disillusionment, on the eve of bitter sweet. I'm perpetually one step away from either collapse or rebirth. I am exactly where I need to be. Either way I go towards rebirth, for a total collapse often brings a rebirth." -Andrew Jaramillo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 191 by autumnman, posted 07-24-2008 11:28 AM autumnman has not replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 208 of 321 (476635)
07-25-2008 12:31 PM
Reply to: Message 198 by Dawn Bertot
07-24-2008 5:05 PM


Re: God
Essentially I agree with you, however faith or belief is not "taught', it is lived by experiential observation of some facts, believing in things you do not have "absolute" factual evidence for in other areas. "The Faith" is taught. There is much evidence to suggest God created but not evidence to show or tell us how exacally he creates something form nothing, we accept that by faith, correct?
This looks like the difference between blind faith and an informed faith. There must always be some sort of primer that is going to lead one to believe. Nobody should believe on the basis of belief itself, as it would just prove gullibility. There is nothing virtuous about a blind faith, in my estimation. Consequently, to have blind faith in one area, but demand proof in another, is self-defeating.
But what you wrote is generally how I personally understand faith, but more specifically, an informed faith. It is inferential.
Imagine Moses coming down from the mountain and trying to convince the people that "Hey guys you can trust me, these are from God", without any confirmation whatsoever. I would not have believed him either.
Agreed.
quote:
You have to believe that God Is.
You have to believe God will do what He says He will do.
That is FAITH.
Iam in full agreement with you. Believe and Biblical faith are joined at the proverbial hip
Thirded.

“I know where I am and who I am. I'm on the brink of disillusionment, on the eve of bitter sweet. I'm perpetually one step away from either collapse or rebirth. I am exactly where I need to be. Either way I go towards rebirth, for a total collapse often brings a rebirth." -Andrew Jaramillo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 198 by Dawn Bertot, posted 07-24-2008 5:05 PM Dawn Bertot has not replied

  
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