The Tree of Life as God's Life

Hi Jaywell,I agree that the way of contrast appears to be a common theme within the bible as far as I gotten with it. And is a useful way of examining things. Man in the garden fell due to the Tokge. Contrast would seem to suggest that mans final position, if in Christ and not Adam will be 'better' than the position Adam has before he fell. Glorified persons that they will be. Maybe thats what the TOL enables. Thus man neutral to start with and with two final options open to him.Its time for me to leave EvC so as to enable time to go deeper with my Lord. I've enjoyed your posts and wish you God speed in your efforts here.Ian

The book of Genesis is one of the most analyzed, debated, discussed, and examined writings in the history of the world. If it were just simplistic story not to be considered too seriously I don't think so many thoughtful people would have paid so much attention to it.And from the information of the account the tree of the life seems to have been the more powerful source. That is because God forbade man to eat of it after he had the tree of the knowledge of good and evil which would cause him to die.God never told Adam that to fail to eat of the tree of life would cause him to die.Also since the new covenant apostle writes that man was "alienated from the life of God" (Eph. 4:18), that is a very strong indication that Adam being cut off from the tree of life was the beginning of man being cut off from "the life of God."Lastly, I don't see how you could so lightly regard any book which tells us why God created man - (Gen. 1:26,27).

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The book of Genesis is one of the most analyzed, debated, discussed, and examined writings in the history of the world.

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If you say so, but I haven't seen any figures on it.

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Also since the new covenant apostle writes that man was "alienated from the life of God" (Eph. 4:18), that is a very strong indication that Adam being cut off from the tree of life was the beginning of man being cut off from "the life of God."

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Although that is what is written, I disagree with your understanding from a plain text viewpoint when we look at the whole section (4:17-5:21). In the rest of the section, the speaker is talking about behavior and attitude. You know the line - Put off the old self, etc.For the Jews the Torah is life. The Torah covers behavior. Those separated from the life of God aren't following the Torah guidelines. IOW, not behaving correctly, which is what the section deals with, IMO.

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Lastly, I don't see how you could so lightly regard any book which tells us why God created man

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Why do you judge that I take the writings lightly just because I disagree with your interpretation?

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

Purpledawn,First the section in which we are close to agreement: I agree that with Jewish expositions which tie the tree of life to the law of God or the word of God. The law was also called "the testimony" in that it functioned as a description of God's nature.Before the incarnation of God as a man in Jesus Christ the law was the testimony and the description portraying what God is like. Or I should say what a man living one with God should look like.This law was not God imparting Himself into man. But it was holding man up to the standard that God could give man an attempt, by his own fallen nature, to live up to the standard.It is as if God tells man "You want to live according to my plan? Okay, here keep this law. Live this way. Live so that this testimony is expressed in your living." Before God enacted a the way to impart His life into man in the new covenant, He first put man beside the law of God as a kind of measuring rod and told the Jews to live up to that standard.Jewish expositions which relate the tree of life to the Torah have some validity IMO for this reason. The question is what is the context of "alienated from the life of God?"Well, the book of Ephesians introduces us to the plan of God to have sons - "Predestinating us unto sonship through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will" (1:5) God's good pleasure was to predestinate some human being to be His sons. At the most superfiscial level this calls for humans and God to be in the same family.If man is alienated from the life of God man cannot be in the family of God.Secondly, 3:17 with the view that God wants to have sons of God says "That Christ may make His home in your hearts through faith" (4:17). In otherwords to accomplish this "sonship" God must dispense His Son into our hearts through our faith. His Son is a living Person. For Christ to make His home in our hearts is for one living Person to be imparted into another living Person. It is not sentimental talk. It is a teaching that the resurrected and living Jesus is a Person Who has a nature that allows Him to enter into our psychological heart. Our heart is our mind, emotion, will, and conscience.So "alienated from the life of God" is remedied by the living Christ entering into the heart of the repentent sinner by his or her faith.Thirdly, let's look at the verses you highlight - 4:17 - 5:21Insight into this section is not only based on Christ the living Person entering into our hearts. It is also based on 4:6 where God the one Father is "in all" - "One God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all" (4:6) The word "all" relates not to the whole world but to the "Body" (v4) of Christ which comes into being as the aggregate of all those who have received Christ into their hearts.Verse 20 says "But you did not so learn Christ" Briefly, this verse shows that it was not by following the blinded and lascivious living of uncleaness in greediness in verse 19 that the disciples learned Christ. They became familiar with and experienced with the resurrected and living Person of Christ by living under His indwelling influence. They did not learn Christ by continuing to live sinful lives after they received Christ into their hearts by faith.This verse does not talk about "learning ABOUT Christ" as an objective matter. It talks about "learn[ing] Christ" Himself as a Person who is real, living, and available to commune with in a subjective way.Verse 21 says "If indeed you have heard Him and have been taught in Him as the reality is in Jesus" The receivers have not only heard ABOUT Him. They have "heard Him." They have not only been taught ABOUT Jesus objectively. They have learn Jesus the Person subjectively and in reality. The receivers of Jesus have been "taught" in the sphere and in the realm of this Person. They have not only heard Him speak to them. They have been taught by living in the realm of His indwelling presence.All of this subjective experience of Jesus is in constrast to being "alienated from the life of God".But there is more. The "reality ... in Jesus" (v.21) is put in contrast with "the old man" (v.22)"That you put off, as regards your former manner of life, the old man, which is being corrupted according to the lust of the deceit." (4:22)The "reality in Jesus" is a strong constrast to "the deceit."The old man is the collective man that came into being when the created man Adam disobeyed God. He was deceived. And a process of corruption began to systematically operate in man. Paul says that the old man is continually "being corrupted". It is getting worse and worse. As you get older you are at least capable of doing more and more evil things. Morally as well as physically the downward process of "being corrupted" is going on. Man can apply strong breaks to slow its decline. But he cannot halt its process.The new man is Christ. The new man is the Christ that the many members of the Body of Christ put on. To have Christ enter into our hearts is the beginning of us putting on Christ or putting on the new man. This new man is a man of reality. The old man is of deceit, trickery, false promises, deception, lust for various things, and is being continually corrupted like the operating of gangrene in the flesh.The life of God wants to conform man to the holiness and reality of God the Father of the regenerated ones. The Satanic sinful nature is progressively conforming man to the image of Satan its father. This is not merely a struggle between two attitudes. It is a battle between two natures. It is a conflict for man's being between two lives - a divine life and a Satanic life.We are born with the Satanic life. We must be re-born to receive the divine life. We were alienated from the life of God from birth. We receive the life of God by receiving Christ into our hearts by faith.That the life of God in 4:18 means just that is also confirmed in 5:1 - "Be therefore imitators of God as beloved children" (EPh. 5:1)Since the believers in Christ have these two natures withing them, the holy nature of the new man and the corrupting nature of the old man, they are exhorted to stand with and go along with the nature which is sourced in their divine Father, God. They are in fact His children now because they possess His life in Jesus Christ. They shoulod go along with that and learn to be imitators of their righteous and holy Father God. They should no longer behave as if they were not His children or alienated from His divine life.Since they are in the sphere and realm of the indwelling Christ, they can be "empowered" within subjectively to stand against the stratagems of the Devil -"Finally, be empowered in the Lord and in the might of His strength. Put on the whole armor of God that you may be able to stand against the stratagems of the Devil" (Eph. 6:10,11)The Christians are empowered with the powerful life of CHrist within them. They are empowered in the Lord. That means in the sphere and realm of the Lord's presence with them. In fact His power is infused into their personalities more and more. And the might of His strength becomes their empowering force."Be empowered ... in the might of His strength" In my comments above I think some readers can see how your analysis about a mere changing of attitudes is superfiscial in comprehending Paul's teaching in Ephesians. The revelation of the indwelling of God was seen for the most part in typology and symbolism in the Old Testament.For example, God dwelling in the tabernacle and then in the temple was a prelude to God dwelling in the man Jesus and then in the believers in Jesus. But God told the Jews that ultimately He desired to come to live within those who trembled at His word. That is to live in them as His collective house. And this He desired above the sacrifices:"Thus says Jehovah, Heaven is my throne, And the earth the footstool for My feet. Where then is the house that you will build for Me, And where is the place of My rest?

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For all these things My hand has made, And so all these things have come into being, declares Jehovah.

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But to this kind of man wil I look, to him who is poor and of a contrite spirit, and who trembles at my word.

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He who kills an ox is like him who slays a man; He who sacrifices a lamb, like hiom who offers the blood of swine ... etc." (See Isaiah 66:1-3)For His rest and satisfaction, ultimately God looks not to any temple of cedar and gold. He looks not to the tabernacle or the temple of Solomon ultimately. He looks to man. He looks to find His dwelling place, His house, in man. That is in the man who trembles at His word and is not proud and independent from God. The man who is poor and contrite in spirit will be the one to whom God will look that He may have His dwelling within such people.This revelation is followed by God discribing how unsatisfactory the offerings of thier worship has been to him. Though God established these offerings and the house where they were to take place, these are not His ultimate good pleasure. His good pleasure is to indwell His people's very beings.So Paul rightly informs us that the good pleasure of God was to predestinate some human beings to be sons of God with Christ making His home in their hearts through faith, empowering them to live godly in Christ as the ultimate reality of life. It is wise for them to no longer live as if they are alienated from God's life in Christ. For in fact they are no longer estranged from God's life. I guess I took to brevity of your response as taking light the writing. I'll take a correction on that if need be.This message has been edited by jaywill, 03-04-2006 12:01 PMThis message has been edited by jaywill, 03-04-2006 02:57 PM

ICANT,This is a continuation of our discussion.Below I did not respond correctly to one of your posts. What I should have emphasized is that the number of people who are in the family of God is exactly the same as those who are born again.And Jesus Christ has control over both. The family members have the family life. And Jesus not only IS the life but is the dispenser of that life.Any discipline assigned to His people does not include controling who and who not CAN be born of God.I realize some passage have been interpreted that way by Catholicism. And some feared that the Pope could "excumunicate" a believer so that they perish. This has to be a false teaching, the idea that any man can withdraw the divine life from someone born of God.We were also discussion some things in Revelation about the church in Smyrna.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Hi jaywill, A person is born into an earthly family by a water birth. Child is carried in the mothers womb in a sak of water until just before physical birth.A person is born into the family of God by a Spiritual Birth. When a person puts their complete trust in God (believe on the Lord Jesus Christ) The Holy Spirit comes in and seals the spirit of that person until the day of redemption. Are you sure about that?What did Jesus mean on the cross when He said: "It is finished"?Why did Jesus say: "that which is born of the spirit is spirit"?God the Father had a job.
God the Son had a job.
God the Holy Spirit has a job. God only discipline's His children. He does not discipline the children of the devil. He will carry out their sentence on judgement day. Haven't you heard, the Pope is God that is the reason he can remove one's eternal life. We need to define what a church is first, and who go to make it up.The family of God, church, and kingdom of God are three different things.God Bless,

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"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

Hi ICANT, I am virtually in harmony with you so far. Nothing really to object to at all. Yes. I would make that statement with assurance. Who is this Holy Spirit of God Who causes regeneration ? He is the Spirit of Christ and Christ Himself. Please notice below how the Apostle Paul uses the titles interchangeably.The Spirit of God,
The Spirit of Christ,
Christ,
The Spirit of the One who raised Jesus from the dead The indwelling One, the Spirit of God is also called the Spirit of Christ. And the Spirit of Christ is also called Christ Himself. And Christ Himself is called the Spirit of the One who raised Jesus from the dead.So we are dealing with the very mysterious Triune God, the Three-one God in which each interpenetrates the other. The three are distinct but not separate. So I would say the Spirit of Christ or Christ Himself is the life and the Dispenser of that life.Notice now that Paul says the "Spirit ... will also give life." Well it is Jesus Christ as the "last Adam" who became a life giving Spirit: " ... the last Adam became a life giving Spirit" (1 Cor. 15:45)Therefore the Spirit Who gives life in Romans 8:11 is the last Adam who is none other than Jesus Christ. Christ became that life giving Spirit the Holy Spirit.Christ also is the life of God (John 14:6, 11:25). And He came that man might have divine life and have it abundantly - "The theif does not come except to steal and kill and destroy; I have come that they may have life and may have it abundantly" (John 10:10). This all should be enough to prove that the Spirit of God today is Christ in His pneumatic form to give divine life. But it is quite directly stated that in Second Corinthians 3:17. Christ the Lord, who became "a life giving Spirit" is the Spirit. I believe it meant that His act of pouring out His blood for redemption of sinners was finished. His act of dying for the world was virtually finished. Of course He said it before He expired. Virtually, His act of obedience to die to accomplish eternal redemption was finished.Probably it will take us unto eternity to appreciate all that is implied in those simple words. So do not take this as all that can be said about His words "It is finished."He said this because it is the human spirit that first is resurrected out of its deadened and comatose state in the new birth.We are spirit and soul and body. His word to dispense the divine life into man begins with Him dispensing that life into man's comatose human spirit.You cannot find one passage which says that the soul is born again. The resurrected Lord Jesus is with the spirit, the innermost part of man, in the life of a Christian believer: "The Lord be with your spirit. Grace be with you." (2 Tim. 4:22)"The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit." (Phil. 4:23)"The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit, brothers. Amen." (Gal. 6:18)Yes, I agree. And each lives in the other. And they are in perfect harmony and coordination. They are distinct but cannot be separated. This, I think, is besides the point I am making.My point is that though the chuch is assigned some measure of discipline over her members, it does not include determining who can be reborn and who cannot. That decision is not in the hands of man either elder or apostle or group of church leaders or any man or woman.That is determined by God. Thank God for that. No I hadn't heard. And I don't believe the "Pope" really exists in reality. This is a position created by religious humans. And this Pope certainly is not God. At this point I will just submit that the Lord's church is the Lord's Body. As His physical body contains His life so the mystical body is the corporate container of His life.The book of Ephesians is really the book to study on what the church is in its universal sense.I have to go now. Talk to you latter, I suppose. Praise the Lord Jesus.

Hi jaywill, Why is the Triune God mysterious?We are created in Him image.Last time I checked I had a physical body. Jesus had a physical body.
Last time I checked I had a mind (knowledge) God the Father is all knowledge.
Jesus said I had a spirit that had to be born of the Holy Spirit.

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Mat 26:41 Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed [is] willing, but the flesh [is] weak.

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Jhn 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

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These scriptures verify I have a spirit, flesh, and a mind.In my mind I can design all kinds of houses, cabinets, huge buildings, and roads. But without my physical body I can build none of them.In 1965 my spirit did something neither of those could do. It visited a place that words can not describe. There was a river with trees on each side running through the most beautiful pasture land that I have ever seen. It was no dream as I was laying on a stretcher in a hospital emergency room with a sheet pulled over my head. They were waiting for the coroner to arrive.My spirit could do things my physical body could not do.The Holy Spirit dwells in me today. I don't think Jesus physical body could dwell in me.Now God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit are one.But each has a specific job to do. Are you saying that God is not a Triune-God? Didn't Jesus tell Nicodemus that he had to be born of the Spirit to receive that life?The word used for spirit there means God the Holy Spirit of the Triune Godhead. Actually the penalty for sin had been paid.Eternal punishment is the lake of fire is total separation from God.
God the Son suffered such separation for 3 hours on the cross as God the Father and God the Holy Spirit was separated from that physical body for that time period. This was something that had never occurred from the beginning, and will never occur again.Please do not ask me to explain how such a separation could take place as they are all one. That will be the first question I ask Jesus after a couple of million years of giving Him praise. If He hasn't already given me the answer. What part of the Triune God is the soul?We are made in the image of God. The church is assigned all authority over her members.But everyone that is born again is not a member of the church.
There are people in the church who was a devil from the beginning.
These the church is admonished to not fellowship with.
A person who is born again the church is admonished to restore them to fellowship with the church and with God. If they won't listen to the church the church is to turn them over to God. You can find reference to several places and people who claim that the Pope is God. HereJust because he claims to be God does not make him God or even a god. How can the church be the body of Christ when it is the Bride of Christ? John the Baptist testified that Jesus had the Bride with Him shortly after Jesus had been baptized by him. There is no such thing as a universal church.The Catholic Church claims to be the Universal Church as that is what the word Catholic means. We learn by studying.What better way to study than to try to prove what you believe to be correct or what someone else believes to be incorrect.God Bless,

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"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

how can you be both at the sametime? That is, a member of the church and not born a gain. Example, Judas was simply a wayward child of God that made his own decisions. Judas never ceased to be his earthy fathers son and never ceased to be a chosen child of God even during his sin, correct. I dont see how you could be both at the sametime, not literallyICANT my ole evc friend. If it is necessary to be baptized to be born again, as the scripture teach, why is it only necessary for the the child of God to repent to be restored and not baptized again.In other words a person that becomes a child of God, never ceases to be a child as in the example of the prodigal son. It is only required that he return and repent, not go again through all of the MOTIONS that made him a child in the first place, correct?Please continue your discussion w/ Jayswill and we can discuss this as a side issue, if space allowsEAMEdited by EMA, : No reason given.Edited by EMA, : No reason given.

Hi EMA, Jesus said one of the 12 was a devil. Not that he had become a devil or that he would act like a devil. Judas was never a child of God.Judas was a member of the Church. In fact he was the treasurer. Where does the Bible teach you have to be baptized to be born again?Certainly not here: John did not say mankind was condemned because he had not been baptized.He did say mankind was condemned because he had not believed.Or here: Paul did not teach baptismal regeneration.He said believe and receive. It is not necessary to be baptized again because it was not required in the first place to be born again. A person who has been born into God's family by the Holy Spirit and sealed until the day of redemption can never cease to be a child of God. Just as the prodigal son could never cease to be the son of his earthly father.

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"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

Greetings again ICANT. Because our limited minds have a difficult time understanding how God could be Father, Son, and Holy Spirit eternally and simultaneously.His name in Isaiah 9:6 "Wonderful" is the Hebrew word pehleh takes on these meanings:

something unusual,
unheard of,
extraordinary,
hard to understand,
beyond one's powers,
too difficult,
incomprehensible For a child to be born and yet be the Mighty God is pehleh - "wonderful". And for the Son given to be also the Eternal Father is mysterious. Wonderful means full of wonder, hence "mysterious".I appreciate your attempts to explain the functions of Father, Son, and Spirit. But they did not make the Triune God less mysterious to me. Did you think that your example would take all the mystery out of the nature of God ?No examnple given by mortal man to explain the Trinity has ever taken the mystery out of the matter in 2,000 years. This is also quite mysterious to many of us.When Genesis 1:26,27 says that man is created in the image of God I believe it means that man is created according to Christ.
Christ is the image of the invisible God (Col. 1:15; 3:10; 2 Cor. 4:4).If Christ is the image of the invisible God than for man to be created in the image of God surely must imply that we are created according to what Christ is. This too is rather mysterious, I think. You are thinking of the Trinity in accordance to mind, body, and spirit of the tripartite man. (The mind is a part of the soul).This may be helpful. But even this is still quite mysterious.Don't be bothered because the Bible speaks of "the mystery of godliness" or "the mystery of God - Christ". We believers can partake of and enjoy that which is mysterious. In other words I don't think a Christian is in any way "second class" or difficient because she or he confesses that God is a mystery. We can live in the realm of this mysterious Triune God. The term "flesh" in the Bible is a little more involved to simply always denote the physical body. Sometimes the word "flesh" or the phrase "the flesh" stands for the fallen Adamic nature.But I understand that you are drawing an analogy of the three parts of man and relating them to the Triune God. Thankyou for sharing that personal testimony with me.And I do agree that in God's economical move each One of the Trinity seems to perform a distinct function. It is still mysterious for each lives in the other.Here Jesus realizes the difficulty of accepting that the Father is in Him and He is in the Father. So He says if His disciples cannot grasp that mystery they should believe nonetheless because of His works: "Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in Me? The words that I say to you I do not speak from Myself, but the Father who abides in Me does His works.

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Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father is in Me; but if not, believe because of the works themselves." (John 14:10,11)Jesus made allowances with His disciples realizing that the Triune God is difficult for the finite human mind to grasp. No. I am not saying that the Spirit of God is not eternal. This is usually the misunderstanding some of us encounter when we quote First Corinthians 15:45).According to Hebrews 9:14 calls the Spirit of God "the eternal Spirit". And of course the Spirit of God was discribed in the earliest verses of Genesis brooding over the face of the waters in creation and restoration (Gen.1:2).So for the Last Adam to become a life giving Spirit (1 Cor. 15:45) cannot mean that the Spirit as the Third of the Triune God did not come into existence until the last Adam. What we mean is that the Spirit of God in eternity past contained only the divinity of God. After the incarnation, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ, the last Adam, the eternal Spirit contained the MAN Jesus of Nazareth.And this too is rather mysterious. But shall we cut out of our New Testament First Corinthians 15:45 ? Of course not. So Christ, the last Adam BECAME a life giving Spirit. And that life giving Spirit is none other than the Holy Spirit, the Third of the Trinity.Incarnation brought God into man. Resurrection brought man into God. Yes, my brother. And your point ? I think your point is that before the last Adam became a life giving Spirit, the Holy Spirit is spoken of in John chapter 3.I agree. However, I am not willing to say that because of John chapter 3 verses 6 and 8 about the Spirit, therefore the last Adam [did not] become a life giving Spirit.I have to believe both passages. For the last Adam to become a life giving Spirit implies that a process took place in God's economical move. First the Word became flesh (John 1:14). And then the last Adam became a life giving Spirit (1 Cor. 15:45).So I have no choice but to submit that the Triune God is indeed mysterious. No?Furthermore, recall that John says that the Spirit was not yet because Jesus was not yet glorified. The King James supplies the word "given" but it is not in the original Greek.The Spirit was not yet because Jesus (the last Adam) was not yet glorified. See John 7:39. Yet Hebrews says that the Spirit is the "eternal Spirit" . So some theologians have made a distinction between:1.) the essential trinity
2.) the economical trinityThe essential trinity emphasizes the simultaneous existence of the Three from eternity to eternity.The economical trinity emphasizes God moves to accomplish His work as a process in which the Word became flesh in incarnation and the last Adam became a life giving Spirit for life impartation. Praise God. One way or the other we were redeemed. I believe that the economical Spirit that was came down upon Him in His baptism (Matt.3:16), left Him on the cross. Intrinsically, however, He never ceased to be God-man. He was conceived of the Holy Spirit and essentially in His being remained God - Man on the cross.But I agree with you in so far that to be forsaken by His God, as He cried, may certainly have entailed that the Spirit which had come down upon Him in baptism had forsaken Him as He bore the sins of the world.Now admit it. Isn't this too very mysterious? I think so. LOL. I won't. I know that the Triune God is very mysteriious. It is wonderful that we believe in Christ! I can only say at this point that the Bible does mention God's soul. This rather unusual because Christ is not said to be one third of God. It says that the fulness of the Godhead dwells in Him bodily. That is not really a "part" of God. That is not really 33.3333% of God. That is God's fulness dwelling bodily in the Son.So I am not sure how to answer a question "which part of God thus and such". Amen.And as those undergoing transformation as we should be, we are being renewed into that image. So in one hand we are made in God's image. And on the other hand the NT says we are being renewed into His image: "And have put on the new man, which is being renewed unto full knowledge according to the image of Him who created him" (Col. 3:10)I wish I could continue with your comments. But I have to go now. We'll continue latter.Praise our dear Lord Jesus, the Victorious One.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

ICANT,Now I have time to continue. To a degree, yes. But Christ is the Head and the church is the Body. So the Head really has the absolute authority over the body. Everyone who is born of God is a member of Christ's mystical body. A person born again is a member of the universal church which belongs to all places and all times in history.Didn't you realize that? We Christians all act like the devil sometimes. We all who are born again. Everyone who is born again is a member of the universal church which belongs to all times and all places.All who are washed in the blood of Christ, even though they be immature, they are still members of the church universal. Behavior does not exclude them. Behavior does not include them. Justification by faith includes them and regeneration makes them members of Christ's body the church.You didn't know that ?This is the church that Paul, Luther, Calvin, Swingle, on and on, etc. ... they who have received Christ at any time and anywhere are members of Christ's body the church. This instruction involves not the universal church but the practical local church. For the local church to not fellowship with an unruly brother in Christ does not put that brother outside of the universal church. If he or she is born again, no matter of not fellowshipping with that person can change that.We may ask a Christian not to come to the meeting of the local church because they behave so badly. This emphatically DOES NOT put them OUT of the Body of Christ. I think we have to be very clear about this.Once you are born again you cannot be unborn. And as long as one has the life of Christ she is in the body of Christ. Behavior will not alter that. Discipline cannot change that. Lack of discipline cannot either. It is one matter to be restored to fellowship with the local church. It is another matter to claim that a person can be put out of the body of Christ. Restoral to the fellowship of a local congregation has no effect on that person being a member of Christ's universal church.Look at it this way. If your father puts you outside the house you still remain his child. He cannot take his life from you, cause you to be unborn, and put you outside of his family.You two may not be on speaking terms for awhile. He may expell you from the dinner table. But he cannot change the fact that you are his child. The church of Christ is composed of all the children of God. They have eternal life. They cannot be unborn of God once having been born of God.They may lose the reward of the kingdom. They may suffer lose. But they are still members of the Lord's church. Well, they should be turned over to God at every stage. Perhaps you are refering to Paul saying the unruly fornicating Christian brother had to be turned over to Satan. And that was for the destruction of the flesh that his spirit could be saved on the day of Christ.No matter how strongly a brothers or sister in Jesus Christ is disciplined by other Christians they CANNOT make that person no longer a member of Christ's body the church. That matter is determined by their being born again. And it is settled for eternity.You cannot fight unruliness in a church congregation by introducing an incorrect teaching. Okay. Regardless, this hierarchy is man made and unscriptural.
But I can believe that almost anything might be claimed by those in error concerning the Pope. No need to argue with me about that. It is both. The New Testament claims she is both. So I believe both.As to His counterpart and romantic other, she is His Bride.
As to a vessel to contain Him that she may carry out His will and desires, she is His Body.The biblical picture is that of Eve being taken out of Adam and brought to Adam to be his wife. She was built from a rib of Adam. Adam said "This time it is bone of my bone and flesh of my flesh."She came out of Adam and then brought back to Adam. She shared that life and nature of Adam but became Adam's counterpart. The one became two and then the two became one.Only that which came out of Adam was qualified to be brought back to Adam for him to marry. And only what comes out of Jesus Christ can return to Jesus Christ to be His Bride and wife.I strongly recommend that you get the book The Glorious Church by Watchman Nee. Order it from Living Stream Publishers. It is a tremendous book I think may change your life. It strongly effected me.The title may have been used for other books so I suggest you be sure you are getting the book by Watchman Nee, at least first. But if you would notice, the Bride is the encrease of Christ. John said He must increase but I must decrease. So the Bride of Christ is the encrease and the enlargement of Christ.Because the truth is profound it is expressed in varied ways. On one hand the church is His Body. From another view the church is His Wife.
Yet from another view the church is the temple of God, the house of God.Many expressions are used. We should appreciate each one in turn. Don't you think so ? Yes there is a universal church. Perhaps I will deal with this complaint in a separate post all by itself.But know that there is that aspect of the church which is throughout all time and all places. The book of Hebrews speaks of the church as the "universal gathering" in Hebrews 12:22 in some English translations.I'll come back to this matter and prove to you that there is such a truth as the church universal. Here again, you cannot fight a heresy by introducing another heresy. You cannot correct doctrinal error by inventing another doctrinal error.The concept of a catholic church is not really wrong. Of by "catholic" we mean a universal body, the concept in itself is not wrong.Fighting against the Roman Catholic church by inventing a doctrine that there is no universal church is to replace one error with another.Truth combats error. One heresy cannot fight against another heresy. Then prepare youself. I will have to show you the truth of the church universal in the Bible in a future post.But it is very good that you want the view proved. That's a good thing if you desire that I justify what I teach from the Bible. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

ICANT,Briefly now I want to show you that there is the truth of a universal church. The church in its universal aspect if spoken of by Christ in Matthew 16:18: Set aside for the moment the rock and the foundation, etc. Which church is this that Jesus says He will build ? Well in the New Testament the church in Ephesus is mentioned as well as the church in Jerusalem. The churches of Galatia are mentioned as well as the churches of Judea. The church of the Laodiceans is mentioned as well as the church in Cenchrea. So which church does Jesus mean when He says "I will build my church"?He must be speaking in universal terms. The church throughout all the centries and in various cities which includes all those who receive the Gospel, is the church He means. He means the church universal will stand and the gates of death will not prevail so as to destroy her.Now let us come to the book of Ephesians. Paul is speaking to the congregation in the city of Ephesus. He is writing to the church in Ephesus, a local church. Yet Paul says that they, in Ephesus, are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God.Now the household is larger in scope than just the city of Ephesus. So they in Ephesus are also citizens of this divine kingdom and members of this divine household. This has to mean that the local church is part of the universal church. They are not household just themselves. They are members of that household with many others.Now consider Paul goes on: I would draw your attention to the words "YOU ALSO ARE BEING BUILT ...". The audience is the local church in the city of Ephesus. But that local church is ALSO being built into a much larger structure, the singular universal "temple in the Lord" .The scope of the temple in the Lord is much larger than the scope of the local church in Ephesus. She ALSO is included in this larger structure which is a dwelling place of God in spirit. This larger structure has to be the universal church.The Ephesian church is ALSO being included in the building and growing of the universal dwelling place of God, the temple in the Lord. This proves that Ephesus is not the only church. She is a local church but is ALSO being built up into a universal "one Body"(v.16) and a universal "temple in the Lord" (v.21) and a universal "dwelling place of God in spirit" (v.22).So the church which Jesus said He would build in Matthew 16 also includes the congregation in Ephesus. The local assembly in Ephesus is practical and local to space and time. The larger temple and church into which the Ephesus assembly is being ALSO built up into is universal - across ages, throughout all places where there are Christians, in all times.So there is such a thing a the universal church. And I already submitted that in Hebrews in some English translations the church is discribed by the writer as the "universal gathering". Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

The calvinist and campbellite converse. I will not let this get out of hand, ,because we are brothers in Christ, I think or I hope So in the desert he rejects the devil and when talking to Peter tells him get behind me Satan, but then chooses a devil to be one on his fold. Isnt this alot like Purpledawn saying that Pharoah didnt have a choice all of it was orchestrated by God for his purposes. Where is freedom of choice.Was Jesus saying that Peter was the Devil, or should we understand it figuratively? My guess is that jesus was saying you are for all intents and purposes acting like the devil, Judas and Peter, stop it. Now notice, one changed his mind (Peter), the other did not, he hanged himself out of guilt, but my guess is that he repented of his actions and in his heart and mind through these actions, I Hope.If Judas was literally a devil or the devil then we must conclude that Peter was as well. If not, why not?And finally, Devils dont repent or feel guilty about anything, unless you can show me a passage that suggests they do Judas was not a Jew, a chosen child of God, before the new Covenant? How do you justify this statement. How was Judas not a child of God anymore than Moses, Mary, Daniel, or anyother Old Testament Jew. Yes and no, but It is not necessary to quibble this point with semantics. In the rest of the verses in the New Testament that deal with what it takes be born again as a child of God.I will only cite a few since both you and I are familiar with most of them.
In John 3:5, "Jesus said you must be born again of water and the spirit". It doesnt say anything about belief here, so should I conclude this is all I need to do to be born again. should I disregard the rest of the scriptures concerning belief , repentance and baptism and faithfulness. Surely you know this is not the way to proceed.The easiest is in Acts chapter 2. Peter had preached the good news of jesus, his Jewish brethern said,Now that we believe , "What must we do to be saved" Peter didnt say that all fellas, your good to go. hesaid "repent and be baptzed everyone of you in the nameof jesus Christ, FOR THE REMISSION OF SINS and you will be saved" I love these verses they are the most important even spoken,. but they are not all that one needs to do tocomplete obedience to God to become a child of God. belief or faith is only the first step in recievingremission of sins. Not because I decided that but that is the way God choose to implement his Newcovenant, peter used the figurative keys to open the door to that New system.Here is a simple example. Paul said Abraham believed God and it was accounted to him as righteouness"
But what was involved in Abrahams belief, the following of the specifics commands God gave him.Abraham followed Gods commands to get up and move, to sacrifec his son. While he may have hadsome doubts he never it seems failed to obey Gods commands.This is of course what is involved in belief or faith in God, doing what he asks you to do. Acts of faith arenot works, they are acts o f obedience. So yes you are correct, there is no regeneration in the actualwater of Baptism, there is regeneration in Christ blood, belief in that fact and then following through,with what other requirments he has commanded, even if that is the steps to becoming a child of God.If Abraham had never obeyed Gods wishes or commands, do you think it could be said he believed God.Baptism is not a work and it is not ahuman concept, it is an acto faith, to make faith in God what it needsto be, believable. Abrahams righteouness was attributed through belief and obedience, not works.Baptism is simply the method of obedience he has established to brign us into contact with the blood ofChrist"For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ". Given Acts 2:38, there is noreason to percieve this as figurative If you dont believe Jesus Christ is the Son of God, of what value would be baptism? There would be noneed to repeat baptism as a necessity, if you dont believe in Christ int he first placeIf I said to you, Come to the store in MY car ICANT and I will give you 1000 dollars and you choose to notcome in the first place, there would be no need to call you and ask you why you did not come to the storeand then FURTHER ASK YOU why you did not come in my car. It should be obvious that you did notbring my car, because you did not come at all, why repeat the part about the car. This exacally whatJesus is saying. If you dont believe, Baptism is of no effect anyway. No need to repeat it in the samesenstence. You know this is not all Paul said and I just quoted him above I agree 100%, but can that Son do something to be put in prison forever, so while still his fathers son, be separted by prison foreverLets not let this get out of control since we are brother in Christ. Ido however, believe you are teaching false doctrine, by teaching people that Baptism is not a part of being born again. I however will not be your judge on thatGood discussion though. Thanks. we ahve already discussed these matters in private, so you know where I stand.EAM

Hi jaywill, Christ is the founder, cornerstone of the Church. Christ has absolute authority over the universe and everything in it. That does not mean that he does not allow mankind to mess up. No I didn't realize that as it is not taught in the Bible.Where does the Bible mention a mystical body of Christ?Where does the Bible mention a universal Church? Don't put Paul in with the group that came out of the Catholic Church and kept most of the teachings and doctrines of her.Paul wrote a letter to the Church at Corinth.
He also wrote a letter to the Church at Ephesus.
He even wrote a letter to the Churches of Galatia.Why are there letters to seven different Churches in the book of Revelation instead of the Universal Church of Jesus Christ? I believe we are justified by the faith of God the Son which He has in God the Father when we trust God for our salvation. I believe that the spirit of man is totally and completely redeemed and sealed by the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption.The body and mind are in a state of being redeemed day by day. The Body will be redeemed when Jesus comes back and we receive our new body. The mind will be redeemed after the Great White Throne Judgment where we see all those cast into the lake of fire that we knew and did not witness too. Our friends, loved ones, neighbors, coworkers and people we met. It says after that God is going to wipe away all tears from our eyes.It is going to be terrible in that day when a mother or father sees their child cast into the lake of fire because they were not a good example.But where do you find in the Bible that justification and regeneration make you a member of the Church? There is a local Church.There is no such thing as an invisible universal church.You are confusing universal, invisible church with the family of God.
A person is born into the family of God by the Holy Spirit just as a person is born into an earthly family by a water birth. If the Church is the body of Christ why did Paul say: I believe every born again person is a member of God's family.Then in the very next verse say: If the body and the Church are the same why did Paul change the conversation?Now he is talking about a specific group.The Greek word ekklesia translated as church has a specific meaning.1) a gathering of citizens called out from their homes into some public place, an assemblya) an assembly of the people convened at the public place of the council for the purpose of deliberatingSo a Scriptural New Testament Church would be a group of the citizens of heaven who are assembled together to carry out the great commission.The first Church was when: We have a called out assembly of Peter and Andrew for the purpose of fishing for men. They followed Jesus. According to the qualifications of an Apostle they were baptized by John the Baptist.So we have a called out assembly of scripturally baptized believers for a specific purpose. This constitutes a Scriptural New Testament Church. The Greek text does not even suggest such. I await your argumentation. I tell the folks in my Church not to believe a word I say. Unless they can find it in the Bible. I use the KJV as it is the best accepted English version we have.As an English version I prefer Young's literal translation. But if you don't know Greek you can get messed up trying to make English sense out of the Greek construction.I prefer to study the OT from the LXX and the Hebrew. The Hebrew has been tainted by the Masoretic's who completed the MT Hebrew Bible in 1100 AD. These people gather the Hebrew texts and destroyed what did not conform to their beliefs just as the Catholics did during the dark ages.God Bless,

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"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."