The Tree of Life as God's Life

not really there is not that much that needs to be fixed and I believe I can demonstrate why
God already fixed it but I hope the following helpsyes one of us may be wrong about the exact purpose of baptism, but let me say this. i dont believe one is justified in believing that baptism is NOT command, that is to clear to miss.I also believe that Batism is a direct response to belief in the gospel of christ and his ressurection, therefore the efficacy of baptism would hinge on that belief. So in my view, whether one actually knows that it is for the forgiveness of sins or whether one UNDERSTANDS all its specifics, IS MINOR to the fact that one believes this is what God wishes of them and that he or she believes jesus actually rose from the dead.If a person is baptized in this connection (response to belief in the gospel)and for these reasons, his exact understanding of the nature and purpose of baptism will not make nill the affects of Baptism.. Its not necessary for one to understand all its implications for it to be effective from Gods perspective
All that is necesary is that they obey the command, it, as something God requires and it is a response to the Gospel, then that person then becomes a child of God according to the scriptures.Sometimes we make the mistake in assuming we need to understand all the reasons and purposes for a command for it to be affective. This is wrong because the power to forgive sins is not in our understanding but in Gods power to saveEAMEdited by EMA, : No reason given.

Hi jaywill, Good we can agree then that Jesus told the truth when He said, "I will build my Church". Verse 30 ends the parable of the wheat and the tares started in verse 24. Using the illustration of a farmer.Verse 36 is where the disciples ask Jesus to explain the parable of the tares and wheat.
In verse 37 Jesus explains that He is the sower of the seed.
In verse 38 Jesus explains that the field is the world.
That the good seed are those born again, children of the kingdom.
He also explains that the tares are the children of the wicked one.
In verse 39 Jesus explains the devil sowed the tares, the harvest is the end of the world and the reapers are the angels.
In verse 40 Jesus explains that the tares are gathered in the end of the world and burned in the fire.
In verse 41 Jesus explains that He will send forth His angels to where He has kingdom authority to gather all things that offend and do iniquity.
In verse 42 Jesus explains they will be cast into the lake of fire, there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth.There is nothing in those verses that even resemble a Church must less meet the Greek word EKKLESIA's definition. I hope the presentation of Matthew chapter 13 was just a spur of the moment grabbing of a text to try to prove a point. As I understand it every person who has ever been saved was saved by the shed blood of the Lamb. Enoch and Elijah included. So when was the Lamb slain? My problem is Jesus said He would build His Church. If He did not have His Church (Bride) with Him He lied and did not build His Church. John the Baptist also lied as he testified the Bridegroom had the Bride with Him.I know what Jesus said.I know what John the Baptist said.I have no idea where you get your new covenant requirements that the Church could not have been started by Jesus in His personal ministry as He claimed.Especially since everything was signed sealed and delivered before the foundation of the world. Before God formed the man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life and he became a living being.God Bless,

---

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

Hi EMA, Everything was covered in that verse that Enoch, Elijah and the thief of the cross needed to be born again and spend eternity in heaven.If you read my post you know I believe you have to be baptized as the first step of obedience to Jesus as He set the example and walked a long ways to be baptized by the man who had the authority to baptize.
His baptism did not make Him the Son of God.Jesus said my sheep hear my voice and I know them and they follow me.I can't follow Jesus without being baptized.You left out part of what James said. "and tremble"Look up the Greek word for believe. It carries a little more than believe the facts about something.You could look back in my posts and find it.God Bless,

---

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

Right, his baptism was necessary to "FULLFILL ALL RIGHTEOUSNESS", as Christ himself stated.Christ's baptism and its purposes was slightly different for him than it is for us. he was setting the example as he did in observing the sabbath, even though he was LORD OF THE SABBATH. He made the law in the first placeFor our purposes it is a wonderous command to obey which results in the remissionof sins."When they heard this they were pricked in thier hearts (they believed) and said, men and brethren, what must we do? Then Peter said unto them, repent and be baptized everyone of you in the NAME OF JESUS CHRIST, for, THE REMISSION OF YOUR SINS and you will recieve the gift of the Holy Spirit" (Salvation) Acts 2:38Its all there in one neat package. belief, repentance, confession, baptism and the forgiveness of sinsI think most people that are baptized are doing it in a response to the Gospel, and the results of this obedience, results in the remission of sins through his blood, as PROMISED BY THE SCRIPTURESIt is sad however people have removed the original teaching, place and purpose of baptism from its original God designed intentions. To teach that it is not necessary to be born again is unscriptural, but it it interesting people some how find a place for it. I suppose that is all that matters.Thanks for the discussionEAM

That is an understatement. This was a prophesy which must be fulfilled. It cannot fail.The full fulfillment of this prophecy I believe is unveiled in the sign of the New Jerusalem. We may rest assured that it is an inevitable of history that Christ's church will be built.He is building His people into God. He is building God into His people. The gathering of the tares is of course not the church which Christ will build. But you are the one who wanted to desginate any gathering out by Christ to assemble was a church.So I pointed out that may be true, yet the Lord's new covenant church is not always the intended meaning. Yes it was off the cuff. And I think I made a point. If not, my point is the church really began with the redemption accomplished and the saints regenerated by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead.Of course Jesus gathered men and women before His redemptive death to be the constituents of the church. And no one can argue that they were called out and assembled together. I agree. In the eyes of God, from the foundation of the world (Genesis 3:21).I bet you and I have read a lot, if not all, of the same theology. You nicely refered to J.N. Darby. I assume you have read some "Brethren" theology.I have also been very enfluenced by the writings of Govett, Panton, Pember, Watchman Nee, and Witness Lee.When you wrote I did not have the foggiest notion about what the church was I had to chuckle a little. I means I really need to see more of course. But the vision and practice of the church life I have been involved in for about 35 years.You're right though. I really really need to see more of what the church is as God sees her. I'll tell you what. I will think about your view for awhile. I promise. You have a good point. I have no major objection to seeing the whole matter from the eternal perspective of God who transcends time.Yes from that angle the church was there already. In the same way I have heard a teacher say that we Christians were born again before we were born. How do you like that?From the perspective of eternity, before we were born with the natural life God had already begotten us with the divine life.You wish to see the church from this lofty and transcendent standpoint outside of the limitation of time.I think I can appreciate both aspects without being too dogmatic to use one truth to fight against the other. That is usually where divisions occur.

ICANT,Now let's get into some real meat of the matter. And I hope EMA and Richh will join in also.Are you there Richh?What is it in your experience for the church to be built anyway? What does it mean to BUILD as "I will buld my church"?What IS building ?

Hi jaywill, That is the most intreging part and the hardest part of God to understand.Since God is not limited in time and space as we are He can view the beginning and the end at the same time.God has one great big now. He does not have yesterday or tomorrow just "NOW".
Really hard to fathom.But that means He knew me before I was born.He loved me before I was born.He knew every little detail of my life before he made the first man and placed him in the garden.He knew every time I would disobey HIm and every time I would obey Him.In spite of all that knowledge about me and the rest of mankind He loved me and them enough to make a way we could choose to spend eternity with Him.I in my own am not worthy of such love nor will I in my strength ever be worthy of such love.But one day I will be able to understand How God could love me so much.Maybe somewhere out there in eternity He will allow me to have my own universe to love. Wouldn't that be a blast?I put no limitations on God. He can do anything He desires to do.God Bless,

---

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

Maybe, but my guess is that what exist past this physical plane of existence is going to be so much more intriging and wonderful, the thought of presiding over or coming back to this type of existence will be almost repugnant. But I could be wrong This is what I meant yesterday when I was speaking about you and jaywill, your Zeal is much stronger than your knowledge or you skills. Happy thanksgivingEAMEdited by EMA, : No reason given.

Hi jaywill, Church comes from the Greek word ekklsia which means a called out assembly for a specific purpose.It can be an assembly of any group of people called out for a specific purpose. Be they a mob, PTA, Lyons Club, Boy Scouts, etc.Build comes from the Greek word oikodome which means to begin to dome up.Jesus was raised up by a carpenter so He knew what it was to build things. He also knew if you did not start to build something it would never be built.In Matthew chapter 16
In verse 13 Jesus asked His disciples who men said He was.In verse 14 They answered, Some say John the Baptist, some Elias, some Jeremias otheres one of the prophets.In verse 15 Jesus asked, "whom say ye that I am"?In verse 16 Simon said, "thou art the Son of the living God".In verse 17 Jesus tells Peter God the Father revealed that to you.In verse 18 Jesus says to Peter upon this rock I will build My Church.Most people think Jesus was talking about building the Church on Peter as Peter comes from Petros which is a little pebble.Jesus built His Church on the statement Peter made concerning Jesus.In verse 18 Jesus said I will build my Church on the "Son of the living God".Jesus said, "I" That means Jesus would personaly build His Church.The Church was not started by Peter on the day of Pentecost. But some 3,000 people were added to the Church on the day of Pentecost. (It is hard to add to something that does not exist yet).Lets notice:A Church is a called out assembly for a specific purpose.Jesus said, "I will build My Church".Jesus called Peter and Andrew away from their jobs into an assembly to be fishers of men. This constitutes Jesus Church and the fullfillment of His words "I will begin to dome up My Church".From that day until Jesus was crucified He personally called people to be part of His Church on a daily basis which numbered about 120 on the day of Pentecost.When the day of Pentecost came and the Church was endowed by the Holy Spirit to lead them and guide them in all truth, from time on the Holy Spirit has been calling mankind to service for God.When the Word of God is preached the Holy Spirit takes that Word and convicts mankind of his sinful condition and his need for a Saviour. At that moment man must decide whether he will listen and accept God's offer of a free full pardon.Now I would like for those who keep yelling about repentence to tell me how a person could be convicted of their sins willing to turn from their evil ways and accept God's offer without repentence being accomplished in the transaction.ConclusionsJesus called Peter and Andrew away from their jobs to a specific job of being fishers of men thus constituting the first assembly of Jesus Church.Jesus called men during His personal ministry.When His job on earth was done He sent the Holy Spirit who has been calling men to special service since the day of Pentecost.This calling will continue until Jesus appears in the air and calls His Bride to the Marriage Supper.This will be a calling out of the born again children of God who have been a faithful member of one of Christ's true New Testament Churches on earth.What a glorious assembly that will be. It will be very visible.When Jesus returns to earth and sets up His physical earthly Kingdom
The queen will rule and reign with the King.Glory to God in the Highest.God Bless,

---

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

Yes. But He has become small enough and available for us to take Him into us.He entered into time as a man. And the man became a life giving Spirit in order to live in us.The woman discribed the Messiah as the crumbs under the table for the little dogs. Jesus seemed to agree. This means that this great God became small enough as crumbs to be assimilated by us. How great He is yet how very small He is also.We can "eat" Him. Amen. Amen. But we can enjoy this unfathomable One. Praise Him. As the Psalmist wrote: "My frame was not hidden from You when I was made in secret, skillfully fashioned in the depths of the earth.

​

Your eyes saw my unformed substance; And in Your book all of them were written.

​

The days that were ordained for me, when not one of them was yet.

​

How precious are Your thoughts to me, O God!" (Psalm 139:15-17)Amen. And He commands us brothers to love one another as He has loved us. It requires His divine life. We cannot make it by our natural life. So we need Christ as the "life giving Spirit"Amen. This understanding has become precious to me whenever I fail. You see when we fail it is often a surprise to us. But it was no surprise to him. He knew what we were before He saved us. He knows that in ourselves we simply cannot make it to live unto God.If we are dissappointed in ourselves it is because we just don't realize the extent to which we need to be saved. God is not surprised or dissappointed because He knew our true state all along. It is us who need to have our eyes opened.Within we thoroughly need the Lord Jesus to fill our whole being. He is the life giving Spirit that gives life to our entire being. Sometimes I think we can lose track that His love for us on the cross was personal. Yes He died for the church as a corporate entity. But Paul says: "He loved me and gave Himself for me."So this sacrificial love carried out by Christ was personal. He loved the sinner who was even not yet born. He offered Himself through the eternal Spirit.He loved me. He gave Himself for me. He loved you and gave Himself for you. Seeing this is vital to building up the church too. I think the more we grow in grace the more we realize that we are only good to be damned.Paul grew to consider himself the chiefest of sinners, less than the least of all saints.I am not there yet by a long shot. I still think I can do something worthy for God. Only He within me can live God. Only He flowing out of me is material for the building up of the church.We are going to talk about the building of the church I hope. And I hope Richh will join us for he has much wisdom and experience.He recently spoke to me privately about my participation in this Forum. I learned that too often I go off writing "half cocked". Thankyou Lord Jesus. You loved us so much. He commands that we love one another as He has loved us.You know we spoke before of church discipline. Even in church discipline there is love. It was no delight for Joshua to have to pass a judgment on Achan for stealing the Babylonian garment and the wedge of gold.Joshua said "My son, give glory to Jehovah the God of Israel and make confession to Him. And tell me what you have done; do not hide anything from me." (Joshua 7:19)Do you detect the sadness in his tone. He calls the sinner "my son". And it is God, not he, who has exposed the transgression with His divine light.To have to discipline is not a happy matter is it? This comes close to what Mormons believe. However, I do not think we will share all of the non-communicable attributes of God like omniscience, omnipotence, omnipresence.However, I do believe that He is building Himself into man. And He is building man into Himself to be one mingled and blended entity. He remains the Head of this incorporated living entity.His plan is to multiply sons of God conformed to the image of the Firstborn Son of God, Christ. But we are being builded up into a corporate entity.The entire aggregate will express God in man for eternity. This is true. And eternity is a great while for Him to do His will. Since we do not know what is on the millionth page of the unraveled scroll, I am also cautious not to leave anything out which might be a possibility.And what cannot the Wife ask of her Husband to do, if it is His will to do it? He is the God of eternal encouragement.Now to the matter of BUILDING. To build we must feed each other Christ. To build we must impart Christ to one another. The Christ in me must touch the Christ in you. Gold touches gold.The building of the church cannot take place in the natural man. The building material is the Christ lived out of us. It is not to accumulate more and more doctrinal knowledge.Of course we should desire to know doctrines accurately and truthfully. But knowledge alone only puffs up. We must live Christ. We must apply the life giving Spirit. Then we can build up one another.We also should not dispise the day of small things. In groups of two or three the real vital building takes place. To call a brother on the phone to pray with him. To call a sister on the phone (sister with sisters, brother with brothers) to excercise our spirits together, bear one another's burdens in prayer, this is building.We need this for the time to come. The time coming will be terrible. We need the fine detailed building in small groups of two and three to stand together.I want to pledge to you brothers to write so as to build one another up. I left the conversation about spiritual death because something said to me "What are you doing talking on and on and on about DEATH, when Christ is life? This is truly stupid."Anyway, Christ as life is the building element of His church.

Hi EMA, But one day my knowledge will be complete when I meet Jesus personally and I am like Him.Happy Thanksgiving to you and yours.Everyday is "THANKSGIVING" to God around my house or wherever I happen to be. I realize how small I am in the overall plan of God and for Him to "LOVE" me so much. I will be glad when I can understand just how much "LOVE" it took for God to do what He did for me.I just want to say thank you Lord
I just want to say thank you Lord for saving my spirit
I just want to say thank you Lord for making me whole
I just want to say thank you Lord for keeping me
I just want to say thank you Lord for keeping me for eternity
I just want to say thank you LordI was lost and undone without God or His Son
Walking down life's long dreary pathway
I was walking hand in hand with the devil and his saints
Till one day I heard the gospel spoken
The Holy Spirit convicted me
And I said Jesus save meEvery since that day I have been so happy
Every since the day Jesus set me freeSo I just want to say thank you Lord
I just want to say thank you Lord for saving me.God Bless all and a Happy Holiday,

---

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

I have known most of these matters for some time now.I have always believed the the Rock upon which the church is built is the revelation that Jesus is the Christ the Son of God, and not the man Peter himself. The rock was the revelation of the apostles and prophets which revelation is of Christ the Son of the living God.I do not mind you reviewing truths that I am aware of.However, in time I still think it is after the resurrection the New Testament church came into existence. However, I indicated that from the divine viewpoint, the heavenly and timeless point of view, it is acceptable to consider that the in God's heart she had already come about.But you know to build is to complete and finish and perfect. So in time the church had to have had a practical beginning.Now I will look in your post again to see if you really told me what the building of the church is. Then I will submit something.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Hi jaywill, But the church is not complete, nor is it finished nor is it perfect.God Bless,

---

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

ICANT writes:Jaywill writes:This is what I meant earlier when I said, this is where you fellas skills really reside. Your both dedicated Bible students, your both love the Lord and when we discuss, with eachother in this spirit, HE cannot put division and strife amoung us.You both sound like early New Testament writers., ieJaywillwrites:Hmmmm? I wonder who that sounds like, maybe Paul.Impressive stuff, I am enjoying your posts, keep up the good workEAM

ICANT writes:Then we are in agreement on the Doctrine of baptism. I told you there was nothing that really needed fixin, as we say down here.EAM