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Author Topic:   Meaning of "Us" in Genesis.
Adminnemooseus
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Message 136 of 194 (464930)
05-01-2008 1:24 AM


Has anyone seen the topic theme lately?
Just curious.
Adminnemooseus

  
IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 3668 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 137 of 194 (464933)
05-01-2008 2:08 AM


My idea of debating a text is, while not dsmissing beliefs, should be first and foremost reliant of its texts - even when it does not allign with one's belief wish list. Prophesies depicted should also be debated of its whole body of texts - not a selected verse which has been denounced. This is important because there are many divergent interpretations via beliefs, and they are all mutually exclusive. Relying only on one's particular belief makes the text a chaos or worse - that it has nothing to say outside one's belief.
But even in a religion thread, a belief cannot over-turn a factual occurence: one can believe where there is no proof or ambiguity - one cannot believe a factual occurence in divergence of its texts - it is superflous or worse. One can believe all humanity will only be saved by Jesus and no one can question it - but one cannot believe the sun did not rise yesterday. Factual history transcends belief, and this differential cannot be dislodged by merely citing one's particular beliefs as its proof or reasoning.
I am uncertain how the Isaiah debate evolved in a thread about Genesis - but I suspect the same syndrome applies: aside from alligning the 'US' in genesis to the Gospels, there is nothing else in genesis worth anything. But my reading of isaiah says different - he had everything to say outside of the Gospels, including non-confusing names, dates, places, wars and events - and all of these are referenced solely with the OT. Fact.

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 138 of 194 (464955)
05-01-2008 10:23 AM
Reply to: Message 134 by IamJoseph
04-30-2008 11:42 PM


Re: Virgin
Hi IaJ,
IamJoseph writes:
The interpretation of Isaiah as having nothing worth mentioning outside of a lame, discredited interpretation of his verses as pertaining to the gosepls is also shameful.
I believe all of Isaiah.
You say part of Isaiah has been discredited.
By whom was Isaiah 7:14 discredited?
Would you provide the reference material where Isaiah 7:14 was discredited?
God Bless,
Edited by ICANT, : Deleted part after reading msg 135 that was not available to me prior to posting this message due to connection problems.

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 134 by IamJoseph, posted 04-30-2008 11:42 PM IamJoseph has replied

Replies to this message:
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IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 3668 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 139 of 194 (464961)
05-01-2008 11:44 AM
Reply to: Message 138 by ICANT
05-01-2008 10:23 AM


Re: Virgin
It is not nice that the history of the war between Rome and Israel, 2000 years ago, is not included in christian teachings. This refers to the 7 year war in 70 AD/CE, resultant when the Jews refused to house a statue of Rome's Emperors in the Temple for worship, when the Romans regarded they emperor as divine. As the Jews had a law forbidding such an act of wirshipping a human, they became the only nation which challenged the Roman empire. Ironically, Rome was replaced by a similar demand by the Roman Catholic church, which entail 1500 years of the same but with different names: the church would have had 20/20 vision their demand would not be acceptable, but its the only one it came up with. This entailed a neccessaity to create a bad guy - and thus far 1000s of false charges have been made throughout the last 2000 - altogether making a mockery of its majestic slogan, 'the truth will set you free'. But saying this today may cause offence to many, but it is a factual item no less. Point is, if the jews did accept Rome's decree - there would be no christianity today: but was not Abraham prophesized to father many nations?
Jerusalem was destroyed, with the loss of 1.1 million Jews, they were exiled to Europe, and the name of their country changed to Palestine - the name of the ancient enemies of Israel, the Philistines [Josephus Documents]. Such a defense for faith is hardly a reason for anyone to accuse Jews of non-belief in God or that their salvation depends on what is believed by others: compared with whom? Such false misreps of history sometimes make interpretations which are nothing to do with reality. Isaiah was not a christian, and was first and foremost seeking the salvation of his own people - its a natural thing for a prophet to first prophesize of and to his own nation, as opposed one which would emerge some 2000 years later, followed by another one 2400 years later. Its like totally disregarding the Buddhists while discussing what Buddha said - all justitifed by one's preferred beliefs.
I will leave at that, and maybe the thread will continue as with its topic.
Edited by IamJoseph, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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 Message 141 by jaywill, posted 05-03-2008 6:15 PM IamJoseph has replied
 Message 143 by jaywill, posted 05-03-2008 6:21 PM IamJoseph has replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 140 of 194 (465155)
05-03-2008 6:02 PM
Reply to: Message 139 by IamJoseph
05-01-2008 11:44 AM


Re: "Who has believed our report ?"
ICANT,
Isaiah 53, that great prophecy concerning the Christ the Suffering Servant, begins with these words:
"Who has believed our report? And to whom has the arm of the Jehovah been revealed?" (Isaiah 53:1)
It seems that the prophet complains that though they (the prophets) have prophesied, no one has believed. All have "discredited" the words of the prophets. God has spoken through the prophets concerning the Messiah. But Isaiah asks "Who has believed our report?"
Regardless of how man has disbelieved and discredited the Messianic prophecies the word of God has stood firm. We needn't be concerned that the unbelieving majority has remained stubburn and slow to recognize that Christ is being identified in several great Messianic promises. Isaiah 7:14 being also one of them.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 144 by ramoss, posted 05-03-2008 6:22 PM jaywill has replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 141 of 194 (465157)
05-03-2008 6:15 PM
Reply to: Message 139 by IamJoseph
05-01-2008 11:44 AM


Re: Virgin
Isaiah was not a christian, and was first and foremost seeking the salvation of his own people -
Isaiah also wrote this:
"Turn to Me and be saved all the ends of the earth, For I am God and there is no one else." (Isa. 45:22)
Thankfully his personal aspirations did not intefere with his faithfulness to speak what God had put in his mouth to proclaim.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 139 by IamJoseph, posted 05-01-2008 11:44 AM IamJoseph has replied

Replies to this message:
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ramoss
Member (Idle past 611 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 142 of 194 (465159)
05-03-2008 6:20 PM
Reply to: Message 138 by ICANT
05-01-2008 10:23 AM


Re: Virgin
Isaiah 7;14 isn't discredited.. it just isn't talking about a virgin, and isn't talking about Jesus. If you read it in context, you will see that the young woman (almah) is the prophetess,and Isaiah's own wife. The son is Isaiah's son, and the sign is that before Isaiah's son can be old enough to understand good and evil , the king of assyeria will be defeated
That is an immediate sign to King ahaz, not something 600 years in the future.

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jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 143 of 194 (465160)
05-03-2008 6:21 PM
Reply to: Message 139 by IamJoseph
05-01-2008 11:44 AM


Re: Virgin
IamJoseph,
I will leave at that, and maybe the thread will continue as with its topic.
If your complaint is that Christians regard Jews as atheists in general, this does not have to be repeated by you again to any Christians I know writing to this forum.
You do not have remind me again and again based on the martyrdom of many Jews that they were not atheists. We know that of course they believed in God.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 139 by IamJoseph, posted 05-01-2008 11:44 AM IamJoseph has replied

Replies to this message:
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ramoss
Member (Idle past 611 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 144 of 194 (465161)
05-03-2008 6:22 PM
Reply to: Message 140 by jaywill
05-03-2008 6:02 PM


Re: "Who has believed our report ?"
Isaiah 53 is not talking about a person, it is discussing the nation of Israel. The writer of the 4th servent song is quite clear on that.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 140 by jaywill, posted 05-03-2008 6:02 PM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
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jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 145 of 194 (465162)
05-03-2008 6:25 PM
Reply to: Message 144 by ramoss
05-03-2008 6:22 PM


Re: "Who has believed our report ?"
Ramoss,
Hello. Long time no hear.
Isaiah 53 is not talking about a person, it is discussing the nation of Israel. The writer of the 4th servent song is quite clear on that.
I think in the past on this Forum we did debate this pretty thoroughly. I could be mistaken another forum for this one.
Where is your evidence that this is so? Maybe we'll get into this again.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

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IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 3668 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 146 of 194 (465181)
05-03-2008 10:02 PM
Reply to: Message 141 by jaywill
05-03-2008 6:15 PM


Re: Virgin
What I see is that whatever any prophetic writing says, if it is good, it is made to connect with the gospels. This is a good thing in the sense it shows an inclination, or what one aspires to. However, as there is immense antisemitism and false charges in Europe's history, writings of Isaiah and other Jewish prophets have been misrepped - as though it did not apply to Jews.
What I mean here is, it is fine to connect Isaiah to christian inclinations in the spirit those writings allign with what christians want and believe - but if it is at the expense of discardng others, specially the primal pointing of Isaiah, it is not a good thing. I find it odd that christian only point to isaiah if it connects with the gospels, as opposed to the general good things he says, but which cannot be connected to the gospels. This causes conflict and divisions within humanity.
Isaiah would certainly not allign with a doctrine that says salvation is exclusive to the gospel path - he showed other good paths. There is here good and needed opportunities for christians to learn some things - specially since the Pope has already stated there are other paths to salvation, and that there is an independent covenant outside of the gospels [read, the past doctrines of the vatican were wrong]. I certainly would not follow a doctrine which says only signing up to a certain club begets salvation - I would fight Heaven against such a doctrine. But I see some would be happy to sit in glee lapping up such a salvation. They would have surely failed the Abraham test.
'THERE IS WIDSOM AND RIGHTIOUSNESS IN ALL NATIONS'
'

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IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 3668 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 147 of 194 (465182)
05-03-2008 10:08 PM
Reply to: Message 141 by jaywill
05-03-2008 6:15 PM


Re: Virgin
quote:
Isaiah also wrote this:
"Turn to Me and be saved all the ends of the earth, For I am God and there is no one else." (Isa. 45:22)
Why can't you see this as a saving of Jews? After all, the European church persecuted the jews and barred them from returning to their land, but Israel was returned - in which case Isaiah can be seen as applying to Israel - is that a bad thought? Israel's return is the greatest miracle the last 2000 years, not in belief but in open form. But it is a great affront to two major religions, when the reverse should be the case: why so?
So you only like Isaiah if it suits you?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 141 by jaywill, posted 05-03-2008 6:15 PM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 150 by jaywill, posted 05-04-2008 3:09 PM IamJoseph has replied

  
IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 3668 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 148 of 194 (465185)
05-03-2008 10:29 PM
Reply to: Message 143 by jaywill
05-03-2008 6:21 PM


Re: Virgin
quote:
If your complaint is that Christians regard Jews as atheists in general
LOL> Daftest thing I've ever heard! Your the new kid on the block, how can you even say such an ubsurd thing? Perhaps its because the gospels omit how the Jews confronted Mighty Rome in its midst - do you know of another people who sacrificed their nation, country and the loss of 1.1 million - rather than bow to the image of a Roman Emperor? Search hard, before posing your question. In fact, I have very close and genuine feeling to protect and save christians - after all they sprung up with the OT in hand, and this gives an onus to protect them in a spiritual sense. But it does not mean agreeing with the gospels or the church. The Pope has declared there is another covenant, and its best to have a Plan B.
There is an irreconsiable difference in the core beliefs of all religions - and all cannot be right, nor can we say only one has a true belief, because all belief can be true, even when not right. Its not the belief which is the problem, but what one is made to believe - and villification and false charges are bad beliefs; salvation at the expense of other groups is a bad belief - it is a test unto you to see how you will turn: like Abraham did or like the church did. We may not believe what hindus and muslims believe, but it does not mean their belief is not genuine? Do you really like the position of shouting I am Saved and your not? Well you can keep it. I should say shove it, I would not take it if you threw in half of the universe as a free bonus.
quote:
You do not have remind me again and again based on the martyrdom of many Jews that they were not atheists. We know that of course they believed in God.
You are correct, I dont have to remind you. But I am. Guess why! Now you may not see any problem that the Gospels totally ignores the greatest martydom in all recorded history, while finding un-ending energy to tell the world Jews are disbelievers and revelled with beedy eyes of the death of a Jew: because you beleive the gospels as the word of God, and that's the end of the matter for you. But I ask you to show me any other example of Jews doing what the Gospels charges - or is that the only instance it happened?! I say it may be the first question any christian is asked as his ticket to salvation. Your belief and right to it comes not from the church, but in difference of the church doctrines, and from this exact point:
'WHEN FREEDOM OF BELIEF - BECAME MIGHTY ROME'S GREATEST WAR'
You do need Gospels 11 for sure.
Edited by IamJoseph, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
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IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 3668 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 149 of 194 (465186)
05-03-2008 10:37 PM
Reply to: Message 144 by ramoss
05-03-2008 6:22 PM


Re: "Who has believed our report ?"
I say it is about all mankind, and I have always argued against it being only for Israel. I would even reject the notion that says, but the world is blessed via Abraham [Genesis], because this has to be seen to be so by others. It is, I believe, a test unto us. I say this while also acknowledging Israel surely requires a respite from the un-ending attacks from two religions without pause. The rule is, the hater, more than the hated, is the afflicted one.

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jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 150 of 194 (465265)
05-04-2008 3:09 PM
Reply to: Message 147 by IamJoseph
05-03-2008 10:08 PM


Re: Virgin
Why can't you see this as a saving of Jews?
All the ends of the earth means all the peoples of the earth.
It certainly does not exclude the Jews. It includes them. Yet it includes the Gentiles as well.
After all, the European church persecuted the jews and barred them from returning to their land, but Israel was returned - in which case Isaiah can be seen as applying to Israel - is that a bad thought?
What does that have to do with Isaiah 45:22?
Other than to say that "Boy. That is lousy and dirty that the "European church" persecuted jews and barred them from their land ... I mean thanks a lot you dirty guys. You believe the Jewish Bible and yet you turn around and reward the jews that way? How lousy of the European church!"
Well you may have a point that that was really dirty. It still doesn't cause Isaiah 45:22 and hundreds of other passages like it to somehow disappear from the Bible as if God never said it.
Let God be true and every man a liar. The dirty deed of the European Christendom does not make God take back His words or actions.
Have you noticed the large number of evangelical Christians who are supportive of Israel in the US?
Israel's return is the greatest miracle the last 2000 years, not in belief but in open form. But it is a great affront to two major religions, when the reverse should be the case: why so?
I agree that it was a great event probably miraculous. But what does that have to do with Isaiah 45:22? How great a miracle the reformation of Israel has absolutely no effect to nullify Isaiah 45:22.
God is not a myopic in His vision as you are. He is able to do more than one thing at a time. He has yet even more splendid things He will do with Israel. This is the only the indication of the nearing of summer.
If you think the return to Israel has nothing to do with the second coming of Christ, then I think you have really missed the point to a large measure.
So you only like Isaiah if it suits you?
Of course not. In fact I think I embrace much more of the book than you do.
By the way, where do you live? Have you gone back to Israel yet? And if not why not ? I think the real steadfast Jews return to Israel. I hope you're not sitting comfortably in a rocking chair in some flesh pot bragging about other Jews going back to Israel.
What about IamJoseph ? Are YOU there?
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 147 by IamJoseph, posted 05-03-2008 10:08 PM IamJoseph has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 151 by IamJoseph, posted 05-05-2008 11:27 PM jaywill has replied

  
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