Meaning of "Us" in Genesis.

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All the ends of the earth means all the peoples of the earth.

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It certainly does not exclude the Jews. It includes them. Yet it includes the Gentiles as well.

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Not good enough, and manifestly not an honest answer. You have a gospel which villifies Isaiah's people for 2000 years, and never mentions what you now admit. My pursuit here is truthfulness, not the targeting of innocent believers. Your agenda is to defend against that appearing as false: because the gospels made the big error of alligning its core belief on a negation and villification of another - falsely. There is no excuse of a scripture omitting the greatest defense for belief in all recorded history. The reason is, as tuff as it may sound, is the focus on one jews' sacrifice - while omitting 1.1 million of his kin as dismissable.The problem is not what you say, but the contradicting, factual reality if this was included in the gospels, it would water down the element of sacrifice by one man. To get around this quagmire, the gospels went on to persecute Jesus' kin, and told the world grotesque distortions, presented as the word of God! When we examine the gospel claims further, we find that jesus did not sacrifice himself but was murdered by Romans [europeans], on the charge of heresy, and that there was no way out of this death - as was the case of all his kinfolk. In fact, the church continued the doctrine of Rome's decree of heresy - and went on to mass murder inncocent people for some 1500 years, and this culminated in the holocaust. It is ubsurd to call it a sacrifice of the son, when the decree of heresy was hovering: Rome would not relent on this issue, which cause the greatest war in its empire's history. The truth is, the only sacrifice which occured was by those jews who refused to worship Roman idols.

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After all, the European church persecuted the jews and barred them from returning to their land, but Israel was returned - in which case Isaiah can be seen as applying to Israel - is that a bad thought?

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What does that have to do with Isaiah 45:22?

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It has much to do with isaiah's writings and his nation. Inseperable premises.

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Other than to say that "Boy. That is lousy and dirty that the "European church" persecuted jews and barred them from their land ... I mean thanks a lot you dirty guys. You believe the Jewish Bible and yet you turn around and reward the jews that way? How lousy of the European church!"

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Well you may have a point that that was really dirty. It still doesn't cause Isaiah 45:22 and hundreds of other passages like it to somehow disappear from the Bible as if God never said it.

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Now if you said that many did bad things ocured in the past by all nations, I would not argue it. if you said what has it to do with Isaiah, I would say the question is a grotesque one. Isaiah was talking 100% Judaism, upholding the Mosaic laws. You say he was talking gospels and that's all you are concerned of. It is grotesque. But you have been quagmired in this position by the gospels - like a quicksand. This is borne by the history of the church - it massacred Isaiah's people same as did Rome - using the premise of 'love'.

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Let God be true and every man a liar. The dirty deed of the European Christendom does not make God take back His words or actions.

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Yes, 'God is not like man that he will change his mind' [Samuel]. But that is exactly what the gospels says - that a new covenant came, and the law is passe. This is totally false, and the gospels cannot say such, nor can Jesus alone.

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Have you noticed the large number of evangelical Christians who are supportive of Israel in the US?

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I like them, even though many jews are suspicious of their motives. What I like is, they advocate the awaiting of a messiah, thereby leaving it to a manifest revelation, hopefully, not reliant again on a 3rd part report! - otherwise, this is fine with me. The truth is, if a return of jesus occured - nothing would change and it would be the same as the first time: chaos. Better, the evengelists, and all christians, wished that either God, or via Moses, accompanied that Messiah - not Jesus alone. Ask yourself if you would harken to Buddha or Mohammed if a return occured with no JC? We learn from this, not to follow the doctrine, 'what is good for you do unto others'. The correct premise is, 'what is hateful to you - do not unto others'[ Hillel/100 BCE].

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Israel's return is the greatest miracle the last 2000 years, not in belief but in open form. But it is a great affront to two major religions, when the reverse should be the case: why so?

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I agree that it was a great event probably miraculous. But what does that have to do with Isaiah 45:22? How great a miracle the reformation of Israel has absolutely no effect to nullify Isaiah 45:22.

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Isaiah, and all 55 OT prophets, write of the prophesized return of Israel - this was declared in the Mosaic. It has a lot to do with Isaiah. What has it to do with the gospels, and which prophesy has been manifestly vindicated here?

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God is not a myopic in His vision as you are. He is able to do more than one thing at a time. He has yet even more splendid things He will do with Israel. This is the only the indication of the nearing of summer.

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Yes, God can do many things simultainiously - even sustaining trillions of life forms simultainiously. God never sleeps. Why then do you not see Isaiah's primary message being applicable to Israel - even when it is come upon your sight as with a blunt axe? Here, true christians should be marching not for the Ozone layer, but the real pollution of humanity and history - the relentless obsession of negating Israel, as if this will change the will of God!

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If you think the return to Israel has nothing to do with the second coming of Christ, then I think you have really missed the point to a large measure.

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No, I would not be missing anything. I say, let the one who gave the first message say so - then I will not need anyone to tell me what to believe. But this never occured. As it turns out, Jews were proven right by default: they would be wrong if they harkened to the gospels or the quran - both have contradicting demands; neither proved themselves via Moses.

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So you only like Isaiah if it suits you?

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Of course not. In fact I think I embrace much more of the book than you do.

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By the way, where do you live? Have you gone back to Israel yet? And if not why not ? I think the real steadfast Jews return to Israel. I hope you're not sitting comfortably in a rocking chair in some flesh pot bragging about other Jews going back to Israel.

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What about IamJoseph ? Are YOU there?

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Again, your reading of the OT and of the realities of life is wanting. It says, 'I WILL BRING ALL THE REMNANT TO THE LAND I PROMISED'. My arm is not that strong to do what I want. There was also no choice when Jerusalem was destroyed by Rome. My position is, christans should pray for Moses to return - at least to be as witness. Nothing will happen, aside from more bloodshed by force and the sword, in the absence of such. You have a histry of precedence as its proof, yet remain in blissful denial.

I don't agree that the gospel villifies the people of Isaiah. Here we have Jesus teaching that a true Jew is one in whom there is no guile: So Jesus did not villify the Israelites. Of course He did point out their cases of rebellion. But the Old Testament prophets already did plenty of that and you don't charge them with "villifying" the Jews. You haven't demonstrated that to me.Besides Jesus called some participants in His own Christian church in Revelation "dead, having left [their] first love, lukewarm, poor, wretched, naked, [needing] eyesalve (to clear the blindness away from their eyes), having in her the deep things of Satan, etc.These are severe rebukes from Christ toward His own disciples.
Have you never read the seven letters to the seven churches which are in Asia in Revelation 2 and 3? You didn't notice how strongly Christ rebukes His own church?Shame on you for you bias. There is enough ground there for you to charge Jesus with "villifying" the Christian church if you applied the same faulty logic. The death of Christ is in a unique class not like the death of any other human whether Jew or Gentile.That the death of many other Jews is not mentioned in the New Testament I don't think is defensible. Reference to the death for noble and ignoble reasons are both mentioned.However, the eternal redemption accomplished in the death of a sinless "Lamb of God" for the sins of the world, is in an entirely different catagory than all the other deaths people throughout history. The comparison cannot be made between the two on all points.This is the truth which you claim to be seeking. Please quote for me two or three of these "grotesque distortions".Please include both chapter and verses. Partially accurate you are in terms of the Jews handing Him over to the Romans.The signs placed above His head on the cross were in Latin, Hebrew, and Greek (John 19:20). I think the significance of this is that the whole religious world and political world and social world was against Christ. All three realms of society were responsible for persecuting Him. The murders of Christiandom are a horrendous and tragic fact of history. The religious establishment of Roman Catholicism was vicious against the Jews. This is true. However, it is also true that at the same time they were viciously persecuting true disciples of Christ.Fox's Book of Martyrs reveals the the Roman Catholic Church killed more Christians than the Roman Empire did.The man who translated the Bible into English, Tyndale, was burnt at the stake. Countless others were tortured as in the Inquisition.If you talk about the persecutions of Christiandom you have to be objective and realize that the RCC tortured and murdered the true disciples of Jesus.Why did they not spare those confessing Christ as Lord and only focus on the Jews? This fact that they included Christians in their persecutions proves that you cannot blame the Gospel of Jesus for being responsible for these crimes. Patently false. I already told you that the RCC killed, I don't know, how many true believers in Christ.You claim to be searching for the truth. But I think you want the facts skewed according to your biases.Until you objectively acknowledge that both the Roman Empire and the Roman Catholic Church launched terrible persecutions against disciples of Jesus Christ as well as Jews, I don't think I will ever be impressed by your sincereity to really find the truth in history or in the Bible.That's all I have time for today. But rather than appeal to our emotions ever more and more strongly, let's see some admission of historical objectivity on your part.This prediction of Jesus to His disciples was made true under Roman and the Roman Catholic Church: Whether at the hands of the opposing Jews or at the hands of the new religious establishment Christianity - the persecution of true believers in Christ is because the persecutors have not known the Father nor known Christ the Son.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

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Not good enough, and manifestly not an honest answer. You have a gospel which villifies Isaiah's people for 2000 years, and never mentions what you now admit.

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I don't agree that the gospel villifies the people of Isaiah. Here we have Jesus teaching that a true Jew is one in whom there is no guile:

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Jesus saw Nathanael coming to Him and said concerning him, Behold, truly an Israelite, in whom there is no guile!
(John 1:47)

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So Jesus did not villify the Israelites. Of course He did point out their cases of rebellion. But the Old Testament prophets already did plenty of that and you don't charge them with "villifying" the Jews.

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This is not about your belief, which is true, nor does it concern Jesus - but what is said in the Gospels which I fully reject. Here, there is no way you can admit what I say has validity even if you wanted to. Siting one man, the reason you allocate no guile, is ridiculous - the Gospels introduced antisemitism, and caused the deaths of millions of Jews and other peoples throughout its 1500 history on the charge of heresy - it was far worse than Rome, Greece and the ancient Egyptians.90% of all European christians were converted by force; even those Jews who seccumbed to save their families were persecuted and called moranos, believers in God in silence, their children sent to christian orphans. The idea was to destroy their bodies and save their souls.There is only a guile of the Gospel writers which has no choice but to disdain the Jews or any anyone who rejected its doctrines, for its position to be validated - it emulated Rome. Having no guile has nothing to do with a Jew not accepting anything in the gospels: he has that right, and adhered to a belief which was 2000 years older and prevailed over numerous other wars with Rome - right under the Gospel writer's noses. Rather it must be directed only and solely to those who alligned with Rome, and dismissed the OT. Get it right - the Gospels villified those who really believed in god, and massacred them for not accepting divine man and devine romans?The jews were 100% right for rejecting every verse in the gospels, its premise of divine man, the charge of heresy on jews who rejected this premise, and its introduction of raceism [it villifies all Jews in genereal terms]. One century later, it was confronted with islam - a different people from jews, but who also rejected the Gospel doctrines.Your forgetting that europe also wrote the Protocols - which is today held as historical truth in the muslim world - and the Vatican is silent of it: what does that tell you? If there was any validity in the Gospel adherants, they would have stood up and told the world which is the Jewish homeland, who robbed it, why and when: they were, if anything, appointed historical witness to the truth - but they lie from every cell in their beings today, with the most imaginatve manouvers to turn a lie into the truth. They do the reverse of the truth, and hide behind Palestinians - a name they themselves dumped on Jews. Its so insane, an ET would never believe all this.One cannot be villified for not accepting a divine man, specially not Jews, and those who wrote such things must have been dead blind for demanding such - or worse. How can you take the word of the same europeans who genocided a nation which sacrificed their entire people for refusing to bow to a Roman, Greek or Egyptian king - then go on to call them names for not accepting a Gospel one? Think about it from a lens outside the one you speak from.

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presented as the word of God! When we examine the gospel claims further, we find that jesus did not sacrifice himself but was murdered by Romans [europeans], on the charge of heresy, and that there was no way out of this death - as was the case of all his kinfolk.

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Partially accurate you are in terms of the Jews handing Him over to the Romans.

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The signs placed above His head on the cross were in Latin, Hebrew, and Greek (John 19:20). I think the significance of this is that the whole religious world and political world and social world was against Christ. All three realms of society were responsible for persecuting Him.

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What diabolical nonsense. The signs were in those languages on 'ALL' Jews crucified. A tombstone epitaph says only that person is dead - period. There can be no notion of sacrifice here when Rome issued a heresy charge and was crucifying 100s of 1000s of jews. Jesus would have no choice here - only the millions of Jews had a choice, and they sacrificed themselves rather than worship a Roman Emperor - nothing else occured here. Only those who rejected Rome can be said to have sacrificed themselves, but proclaiming one as divine was a heresy to both Rome and Jews: what then did Jesus say of and to the depraved nazi-like Romans, who crucified entire families, its general Titus watching on with cuncubines while they died, upto 800 a day? The Gospels is silent of a nation's sacrifice against Rome - what does that tell you - why do you leap to one Jesus here? Its insane. You people have been taken for the biggest ride in history, and been imprisoned. Of course we need a Messiah - who or what else can save 2 Billion christians in such a deep abyss - no man can.

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Until you objectively acknowledge that both the Roman Empire and the Roman Catholic Church launched terrible persecutions against disciples of Jesus Christ as well as Jews, I don't think I will ever be impressed by your sincereity to really find the truth in history or in the Bible.

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No impact on anything. A regime which massared more innocent humans than any other in history, does not become valided because it also killed some deciples. Its still an evil regime. The nazis also killed some christian preists: does it mean we should not accuse them of the holocaust? The fulcrum factor here is not jesus, but a depraved empire which was confronted solely by one small nation, over a period of 150 years, from Caligula to the destruction of Jerusalem - with the charge of heresy: 1.1 million Jews gave their lives for *YOUR* freedom of belief. That is the fulcrum factor here. Upto only a few decades ago, this was the Vatican's position:'We will never support the return of the jews to *THEIR HOMELAND* - because they rejected Jesus' - Pope oh so Pious.Do you stand by that decision? - it was before the Holocaust? Does that not tell you what went on when jews were exiled in Europe, and how the Vatican mindset worked? How can one persecute a people, and also refuse to let them go where they came from: how does one describe purposeful genocide? Who has taken the vatican to task yet - instead that Pope is beautified! You may be surprised what issues will be demanded of the vatican when a Messiah comes - he may not even utter the name jesus - a false, Roman name in the first place - and a messiah cannot repeat or sanction a falsehood. At least, there would be 1000s of questions before we get to your favourite verses.In fact, the church continued the doctrine of Rome's decree of heresy - and went on to mass murder millions of inncocent people for some 1500 years, and this culminated in the holocaust. Which christian stood up against this office thus far, and why is it still standing? A Messiah may demand this of you too.

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The murders of Christiandom are a horrendous and tragic fact of history. The religious establishment of Roman Catholicism was vicious against the Jews. This is true. However, it is also true that at the same time they were viciously persecuting true disciples of Christ.

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I put it to you, this vindicates the Jews, and makes the charges of hapless money changers surrounded by Roman garrisons, and deicide -one insane joke. It does not mean, as you mean to present it - it means only that the jews were right. Period. No one can save christians but the Jews - by the factor of truth and true belief. Be thankful a few are still around - Plan A is alive, despite every obsession to villify and kill of the witness. I see the founding of America, by Jews, as a means to save christianity - from medevial Europe. In a sense, Columbus and his mapsters were not lost, but driven to an unknown land. It was a jew who penned the hymn, Gd Bless America. You may be genuine - but it does not mean what you believe is thereby also genuine. All life has a connection to their Creator source - and this is also the easiest thing to exploit - because all are searching for that.

The fact that God calls all the ends of the earth to turn to Him to be saved vindicates Judaism rather than negates it. For God had told Abraham that through the called race God would bless all the families of the earth." ... and in you [Abram] all the families of the earth will be blessed" (Genesis 12:3) So God expressing His desire to bless all those from the ends of the earth confirms the Abrahamic race rather than underminds it. Do you consider that you are doing a good job of vindicating Judaism artificially restricting Isaiah 45:22?Moses called God "the God of the spirits of all flesh" (Numbers 27:16; 16:22)When Zechariah speaks of the Creator the burden of the world for Israel is that God created the spirit of all mankind within man:"The burden of the word of Jehovah concerning Israel. Thus declares Jehovah, who stretches forth the heavens and lays the foundation of the earth and forms the spirit of man within him" (Zech 12:1)All man was created with an indwelling human spirit in order to contact God the Eternal Spirit. So why should not God call to all the ends of the earth to look to Him to be saved?Though Isaiah God also predicts that all flesh shall come and worship before Him:"For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I make, Remain before Me, declares Jehovah, So will your seed and your name remain, and from new moon to new moon and from Sabbath to Sabbath ALL FLESH will come to boe down before Me, says Jehovah .." (Isaiah 66:22,23)In the flood of Noah all flesh perished in judgement except the eight in the ark. Yet in Isaiah 66:23 "all flesh" will come to bow in worship before Jehovah. So how do you consider denying God's will for universal worship as a defense of Judaism?Again in Micah we see all the nations coming to learn to worship God: So you do a poor job to defend Judaism by denying the Scriptures of the Hebrew Bible that His salvation is extended to "many nations". You would have to explain what you mean by "passe".
Anyway, back to the Old Testament where you neglect many truths there.Sometimes when the Israelites were disobediant to Jehovah He had to remind them that He also dealt with other nations besides them. For example through Amos the prophet God reminds Israel that they are not the only people He delivered from bondage: Above God has to remind Israel that as He delivered them from the oppression of Egypt He also delivered the Philistines our from Capthor and Aeam from Kir. They should not be highminded for Israel is like the children of the Cushites whom God has also dealt with.We also have one entire book dedicated to the subject of God's reluctance to judge a Gentile nation. That is the book of Jonah. So if you really wanted to reveal the true nature of Judaism you would not neglect these prophetic utterances about the nations. I don't know what you mean by this. However, The first coming of the Messiah was not a third party report. The first Christian disciples were Jews. I don't have time to address every rant of yours. One thing it has to do with the Gospel is that Jesus taught the same thing.The one thousand year millennial kingdom before the age of eternity, will be the span of time in which many Messianic promises will be realized world wide.His promises to Israel will stand. If you didn't study the New Testament carefully then you would be ignorant of this - Revelation 20 says that there are 1000 years before the age of the new heaven and the new earth. At that time Jesus will reign from Jerusalem and Israel will be capital of the world.I think I will stop here. You need to be more familiar with both the Old and the New Testaments. Your arguments do not stand well.Maybe I'll look at your other issues latter.

You are evading the challenge I put to you. I told you to submit your teaching passages from the New Testament that are anti- Jewish.Now if you can't do that then admit it. Where? Quote it. Where's the teaching in the New Testament instructing Christians to persecute Jews?Quote me the teaching. Where is the teaching of Jesus to convert by force?Quote me the teachings if you wish to blame this behavior on the teaching of the New Testament? Where is this written disdain for the Jews? Quote me a few examples of the Gospel writers writing a basic disdain for the Jews. Of course he has that right. And he has that right also to believe. The first disciples of Jesus were Jews who availed themselves of the right. And with the exception of Luke, all the other authors of the New Testament were JEWISH.Show me then these disdain for the Jews in these Jewish authors of the New Testament. They believed in God. They did not believe in the incarnation.Regardless, where is this villifying written in the Gospels? Quote it.Have you read the prophets Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Isaiah, Amos, etc. ? Can you show me passages in the New Testament that are as harsh in reprimand towards the Jews as many of these prophets spoke?What gospel or epistle speaks as strongly against the disobedient as Deutoronomy chapter 28? There curse after curse after curse after curse is threatened towards to disobedient Israelites. See Deut. 18:15-68.That portion of the Hebrew Bible contains 54 consecutive verses specifying what curses will overtake the Israelites for their disobedience to the Law of Moses. Show me 54 consecutive verses anywhere in the New Testament that are equal to Deut. 28:15-68 negative warnings directed towards the Jews.And if you can't do it be honest enough to admit that you can't. That's your opinion. And many past and present days Jews would not agree with you. God wanted man to be divine from the beginning. That is why He placed the created man before the tree of life in Genesis.It is God's eternal purpose that man would be divinized. So a divine man is a NORMAL man.You're ignorant of the Bible. You want to talk of racism?Why did this Jewish Rabbi write this about the descendents of Ham?
The passage comes from Sanhedrin 108b attributed to Tanhuma Noah 13,15: Some Jewish scholars therefore said the big lips, kinky hair, and buldging eyes, and enlarged penises are the curse upon Ethiopian black peoples because of what Ham did to his father Noah in Genesis 9.Do you get a whiff of racism here in these teachings? I am a black man. I don't blame the entire Judiasm because of these opinions of Jewish writers. Why should you blame the Gospel for every act of racism commited against the Jews?Midrash Rabbah-Genesis XXII: 6, translated reads "And Cain was very wroth [wayyihar] and his countenance fell: [His face] became like a firebrand [with the editorialo note, Blackened]."In other words the mark that God put on Cain was that his face became blackened. This amounts to condemning all black peoples of African and elsewhere as being associated with a curse that God placed upon Cain.You sense no racism here from some Jewish scholars?But unlike your hypocrisy, I do not hold all Judiasm responsible for these excesses of some Jewish teachers. I asked for quotes from the New Testament of which you have so far supplied none. I did not ask you to demonstrate anything from the Protocals.Where is your antisemitic New Testament teaching? There is a saying that when the only tool you have is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail.You are on a one note ideology. You have mireable failed to demonstrate the inherent racism towards Jews, villifying them, in the New Testament.If you cannot give me NT samples to discuss with you then your argument is finished.I am not here defending the Pope or the Vatican or Europe. If you have samples of TEACHINGS in the New Testament which you feel are antisemitic then I would be eager to examine whether or not this is true, honestly.Until you come up with examples of TEACHING or otherwise antisemitic passages, you lose the case.At least I can claim just as much villifying racism towards African peoples from Judiasm in the same kind of way based on the writings I refer to above. But I do not, like you, charge Judaism as a whole for these few examples of negative references towards blacks. In the Hebrew Bible in Psalm 2 it says:"Serve Jehovah with fear, and rejoice with trembling.

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KISS THE SON ... Lest He be angry and you perish from the way, For His anger may suddenly be kindled. Blessed are all those who take refuge in Him. (Psalm 2:11,12 my emphasis) Here is God advizing the peoples to "kiss the Son". That is the Son of God - a divine man. How can He not be divine since He is God's Son?This is the Old Testament speaking rather than the New. You have no case. This is warning to worship and love a Divine Man - the Son of God. And it is the Old Testament writing.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

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So you do a poor job to defend Judaism by denying the Scriptures of the Hebrew Bible that His salvation is extended to "many nations".

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I could'nt deny that, even if I tried. I do not subscribe to any premise which does not accord all of humanity equally, nor do I derive this understanding from Isaiah. The OT, and the true Abrahamic belief, does not allow any special treat based on one's beliefs, and accords equal rights to all: it does not contain existential negations of those with a different belief, and I see this unique among the three M/E produced religions.And there is nothing wrong with any sector of humanity applying Isaiah to themselves, I fully understand this is done with great beliefs in God and that they see a distinct pathway which fully alligns with their own belief paths. It is a very positive thing, and makes it a powerful counter to all other sectors which cause conflict and divisions.But there is also a premise of negation, when rampant omissions and distortions which foster the negation of others - this is the only negative factor here, and it is real, and in denial. There is a clear contradiction in your good views Isaiah is talking about humanity - while exemplifying it in a small, historical setting; and that there is no salvation but through one pathway. It will be interesting to see verses in all scriptures which gives equal rights to people of all beliefs - a factor which distinquishes the OT from all other middle-east derived religions.

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Sometimes when the Israelites were disobediant to Jehovah He had to remind them that He also dealt with other nations besides them. For example through Amos the prophet God reminds Israel that they are not the only people He delivered from bondage:

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Best said in the Jonah story, which most only read as a story of a whale, while it is pointedly about God's control for all nations. This story is also an indication that the Jews were also wrong how they thought. However, the Gospels not only says it continues a sequal to the OT, it also advocates the negation of Judaism in almost all examples. This too is fine, because a religion cannot subsist as second best or posit alternatives to itself.But with NT interpretations of writings as of Isaiah, my position is it did not in any way relate to Jesus, and words such as spirit does not automatically allign with only one conclusion. Isaiah would have been rejected if he made such advocations. The NT belief is independent, new and its own respected position. Isaiah did not negate any OT laws, change the Sabbath, annul the covenant of circumsizion, nor teach the coming of a divine man, and his advocations are unshakably vested in today's Judaistic version of Monotheism. None of Isaiah's crieria for a Messiah has ever been fullfiled. The future will judge this conclusion: a reason I applaud the Evengelists for leaving it to a revelation to come, rather than holding a sword their belief is the only acceptable position. Edited by IamJoseph, : No reason given.

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In the Hebrew Bible in Psalm 2 it says:

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"Serve Jehovah with fear, and rejoice with trembling.

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KISS THE SON ... Lest He be angry and you perish from the way, For His anger may suddenly be kindled. Blessed are all those who take refuge in Him. (Psalm 2:11,12 my emphasis)

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Here is God advizing the peoples to "kiss the Son". That is the Son of God - a divine man. How can He not be divine since He is God's Son?

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How do you get that? This is a true hebrew/english translation:

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http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt2602.htm

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Psalm 2/
, — —; , . 10 Now therefore, O ye kings, be wise; be admonished, ye judges of the earth.

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‘ - ‘; ’—, ‘. 11 Serve the LORD with fear, and rejoice with trembling.

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‘ -‘, - ‘ -- -‘ :
, —- ‘. 12 Do homage in purity, lest He be angry, and ye perish in the way, when suddenly His wrath is kindled. {N}
Happy are all they that take refuge in Him. {P}

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What whale ?

Jonah, who got himself into a whale's belly?

Are you going to give me your New Testament teachings quoted backing up your accusations of NT racism or not?I wish you would stop evading and offering additional points before pinpointing the "racist" teaching in the New Testament. The New Testamanet passages on Racism, IamJoseph!Don't you know which ones are usually sighted ? Must I help you onthat ? (Not that they are actually racist). I don't want to go on to other points until you follow though with your NT examples of racism.I will, however, check your dispute about Psalm 2.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Let me put it this way, when I read some excerpts of mathew, I was in deep shock this is considered Gdly scriptures. I cant blame christians if they are subjected to such stuff. Why else would I feel that way - I am very closely alligned with christians, and wish such stuff did not exist?

Why does'nt someone start a thread about commonalities and points of agreement, between religions, as opposed the differences? The later cannot be corrected - humanity is not at that sage yet.

I don't know what Matthew passages you are refering to.Can you be specific? Put out the charge and back it up with the quotation or reference to the chapter/s and verse/s.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

IamJoseph, please stop talking weak stuff off of the top of your head.Stop faking it. Find the passage and we'll examine it.

Hi IaJ, Are you sure that wasn't a prepared great fish. God Bless,

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"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."