Meaning of "Us" in Genesis.

Messages should have some explicit connection to the topic theme and the content of message 1. My quick review of the most recent messages finds no connection.People, get back on topic or this one's getting shut down.Adminnemooseus

It would be far from the thread subject, unless we can find a loophole how it connects with 'US'. But seriously, is your Q real, and which side of the coin are you reading?!

Prior to the 'US' mentioned in genesis, the following list of beings existed, all of which have souls, purposeful activities, and know their creator source. And we cannot forget there are some 20 OT laws specifically related to the rights and welfare of animals ['Feed your animal before yourself; do not overload an animal; etc], birds ['Not to take the mother and the offspring together', etc], vegetation ['not to destroy a food bearing tree even during a war']:'US' can apply to all of these living beings, from a contextual and grammatical view:Heaven was created before the earth, as well as the heavenly beings enumerated throughout the OT. This means the serpent predated Adam and Eve.Vegetation.Water lifeFowlMammalsAnimalsMicrobes ['dust'].Why would these beings be created, laws attributed for them, and they not be included in the 'US' - is this because they do not have speech? We know that all of those life forms have communication faculties, at times their perceptions being far more acute than humans' - thus it is reasonable and logical, if animals were given instincts and communication techniques - the Creator, who established these faculties would know their usage. Seen from a big picture view, it would be an anomoly if there was absolutely no reference of them by the Creator. One of the messages here is - we are not the only beings, but only stweardship and caretakers with responsibilities.Imagine a zoo caretaker - should he care only for some selected animals and disregard some of them? The first dialogue in recorded history was not with mankind.

We're back on the subject again. I have not yet had time to research your Psalm 2 omission of the seond of two references to God's Son in that Psalm - verse 7 and verse 12. I think that is related to the subject of the Divine "Us".I am aware of these laws and of the fact that the animals have souls. But when God says "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness ..." (Gen. 1:26) I do not believe "Us" refers to God plus the grass, the fish, the fowl, the cattle, and the other animals. This does not make good sense.Where else in the Bible is there a hint that the animals assisted or accompanied God in the creation of man? This does not mean that the "Us" includes as the creating agents God plus the serpent. I do not think that the animals, speech or no speech, are likely candidates for indentifying who makes up the "Us" in Genesis 1:16.The thrust of the passage is that what makes man DIFFERENT is that he IS in the image and likeness of God. If all the other creatures were in the image and likeness of God then there would be no significance for God stopping to state that man's creation will be unique.This theory of the animals being part of the divine "Us" exalts the animals too highly.It also at least implies that elsewhere where God says "Us" the animals are included. Would God say in Genesis 11:7 - "Come, let Us go down and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech." Would God be talking to the animals to descend with Him from heaven to the tower of Babel to confuse human speech? This makes no sense at all.Would God be saying to Isaiah that the prophet was being sent by Himself and the animals in Isaiah 6:8 ?""Then I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, Whom shall I send? and who will go for Us? And I said, Here am I, send me." It is unlikely that these passage also shows that God plus the animals are the "Us" commissioning the prophet. And of course the most ridiculous idea of all is that God would be saying that the man has gained the knowledge of good and evil as He and the animals have together:"And Jehovah God said, Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil ..." (Gen. 3:22)This exalts the animals too highly. It actually makes God and the animals both above man. But the climax of the creation account is the creation of man. So this theory should be discarded that the "Us" refers to God and the animals. For the reasons I gave above. I think that in an attempt to avoid the revelation of the Trinity you are arriving at a worse interpretation. It is not worth it.Though I can agree with some of your points, I don't find them convincing enough to argue that the Divine "Us" Who creates man is a party of God plus all the other animals. The question is not whether God has no care for the animals. The question is did the animals involve themselves along with God in the creation of man? Would "Our image" and "Our likeness" refer to God and the animals?I think not. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

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I am aware of these laws and of the fact that the animals have souls. But when God says "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness ..." (Gen. 1:26) I do not believe "Us" refers to God plus the grass, the fish, the fowl, the cattle, and the other animals. This does not make good sense.

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Obviously, that cannot be the import. Both factors occur here: the act of disclosing what is next; and the act of creating it. The later act of creting, as you will know, is in the singular, and was only performed by God. The act of creating is not shared with anyone, and is only possible by the Creator; all else is post-creation, created stuff.

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Where else in the Bible is there a hint that the animals assisted or accompanied God in the creation of man?

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It does not, and is not required; this does not impact on expressing to the animals God's next act. That's my point. Note, there is a verse in Genesis, where God says he cannot destroy Sodom without telling Abraham about this action - because at this time, God was in contact with Abraham.None assisted God in Creation - there was no one and nothing around. The first 4 words of Genesis says so:'IN THE BEGINNING GOD'

This is precisely what I believe. I am not a trithiest. I do not believe in three Gods. I believe in the Triune God.The only Creator of man is God. I now understand you to be saying that God is speaking to the animals in saying "Let Us make man ...". Not that they are participating in creating but only that God is informing them of His next act.And then I understand you to be saying that this was similiar to God telling His friend Abraham of His coming judgment of Sodom.I don't believe that is is a good interpretation either. But you go ahead and believe that if you want to.To exalt the animals to be around that same level as Abraham the friend of God doesn't make good sense to me.But as I was considering this interpretation I thinking of the four living creatures that hold up the throne of God in Ezekiel's vision. There the Lion, Ox, Man, and Eagle are the four living creatures associated with the glory of God.However, I don't think God was informing the animals with saying "Let Us ...". I agree.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

It is tied up with the non-negotiable GOD IS ONE. The OT is right here, and is ultimately the best advocation. All the rest are bridges; all will stand down when a real Revelation of the ultimate kind occurs. But it does not mean those who climb via bridges are lacking or wanting; here, the law of equality and deeds kick in. Every life form knows inherently there is ONE God - and many roads - all roads thereto.In the final count, all roads lead not to Rome, but to ONE. There is the long route and the direct one - both are ultimately heading to the same destination.Edited by IamJoseph, : No reason given.

The truth of who God was speaking to when He said "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness ..." is still not adaquately addressed by you. As far as I am concerned the one or two theories of God speaking of Himself and the animals are not right.The only other alternatives are that God was speaking to angelic beings. I don't think this is the case. And I don't think it is the case that He was speaking to other god/s.So the one God is very mysterious in that He speaks of "Our image" and of "Our likeness". Besides God, in who else's likeness is man according to so that God would say "Our likeness?" Besides God who else's image is man made in?This is the mystery. I think the Trinity is definitely a much better solution to this mystery. And even then it is still mysterious.I don't mind you pointing out that God is one but you still have this mystery to deal with: Plus God in who else's image is man made so that God would say "Our image".I believe that the answer is in the Triune God - Father - Son - Holy Spirit.Up to now I see no alternative answer presented in this discussion which yields a more satisfactory opinion taking into account the rest of the Bible's revelation.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

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So the one God is very mysterious in that He speaks of "Our image" and of "Our likeness".

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Billions, over 4000 + years, do not have a problem with that. And I can assure you, there is likewise no problem for christians to get back to the father [their own criteria]. Trinity borders on a violation also. The thing which will save christians is not any trinity but this:'HE CONSIDERETH THE NATURE [SITUATION] OF MAN''HE SPEAKETH IN THE LANGUAGE OF THE PEOPLE'Christianity's merit is that millions in the west was saved from total paganism and depravity of hellinism and romanism, in a mode which considers this peoples' history and nature, leading them up gradually, without indifference, as an eagle bears its young under its wings. This was seen also in how human animal sacrifice was gradually weened off with the Israelites - not done with a blunt axe.

Since we have dealt with plain words, I think some time needs to be given to pictures. It has been said that a picture is worth a thousand words. So I am going to spend some time to submit some biblical pictures which portray the Triune God - the One Who said "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness ..."First I picture of the three substances found in relation to the river in Genesis 1. (But I also may mention something about the four rivers in relation to the dispensing of life from the Triune God into man).1.) Gold representing the Father (Gen. 2:11)2.) Bdellium representing the Son (Gen. 2:12)3.) Onyx stone representing the Holy Spirit (Gen. 2:12) Here in the three substances, gold, bdellium, and onyx stone the operation of the Triune God is hinted at by the Divine Mind behind the composition of Genesis. In the last book of the Bible, Revelation, the city New Jerusalem is made of pure gold. That is gold so pure that it is transparent as glass.This transparently clear glass speaks of man being so transparent that within him, in eternity, the divine nature of the Father is seen unobscured. In eternity the saved human beings are like a clear transparent piece of gold. Within man is seen the divine nature of the Father. (See Revelation 21:18,21): The city being gold means that collectively the entire people of God have been saturated with the divine nature of their Divine Father. This is the point that the new birth will bring them to. They are built up into a corperate expression of the Father's nature.The one street of the city being also pure gold represents that the walk of man, ie, the way the saved man walks in by the divine nature of the Father. The nature of the Father being implanted into the redeemed causes them to walk according to the divine nature of the begetting Father. This is the only way to walk because there is only one street in the city New Jerusalem - "And the STREET (singular) of the city was pure gold, like transparent glass."(v.21)I will explain latter how there can only be one street in the New Jerusalem symbol. The street actually spirals around and around as it ascends up and up the mountain. So the one street is a spiral street which touches all the four sides of the square city and thus all the twelve gates on the four sides.Now in Genesis the hint of the divine nature of the Father is seen in the mentioning of good gold being in the land of Havilah - " ... Pishon; it is the one that goes around the whole land of Havilah, where there is gold. And the gold of that land is good."Genesis hints that God's eternal purpose in creating man in His image is that He might dispense the divine nature of the Father into man to beget this man as a son of God.But the Son of God is also pictured in the bdellium substance. Bdellium is a pearl like material produced from the resin of a tree. And this typifies the produce of God the Son in His redeeming and life-releasing death (John 19:34) and is life dispensing resurrection (John 12:24; 1 Peter 1:3).In Revelation the gates of the city are made of pearl. There is a connection between the pearl and the bdellium. Both are substances squeezed out of a living thing. And they represent the death and resurrection of the Son of God in which the divine life of God was pressed and squeezed out of Him for the salvation of man. In the case of the pearl in Revelation the entrance into the city New Jerusalem is through the gates pearl. The only way into the divine city of God is through the pouring out of the life of Jesus as a oyster pours out a substance around the offending particle to secret a pearl around it.We sinners wounded Christ on the cross with our sins. He then like the oyster secreted His divine life as pressed out of Him in His utter obedience to the Father. He pours out His life around the sinner to supply the sinner with and entrance into the eternal kingdom of God. This is why the gates of the New Jerusalem are pearl gates.Bdellium in Genesis means the same thing. The substance which secreted out of the tree as a resin symbolizes the Son of God secreting out of Himself the life of God for the salvation of man.We have seen the Father's divine nature indicated in the gold of Havilah. We have see the Son's death and resurrection to squeeze out of Himself the saving secretion of God's life for the sinner.There is left the perrsonality transforming work of the Holy Spirit seen in the onyx stone. In Revelation the wall of the city is adorned with twelve kinds of precious stones. These precious stones represent the transformed believers. Peter, the leading disciple, was told that his name would be changed from Simon to Peter - meaning a stone. This changing of Peter's name represented Christ's intention to transform Peter's being. The transformation work within a person's soul is carried out by the work of the Holy Spirit. Therefore the precious stones of the New Jerusalem speak of the transformation work of the Holy Spirit.To build man up together man must be transformed and united in the divine nature of God and in the life of God. This transformation and building up into a city of God is carried out by the operation of the Third of the Trinity - the Holy Spirit. It is as the Holy Spirit that God finally reaches the very inner being of man. The Holy Spirit is the final stage of God coming forth to dispense Himself into man.Though it is the precious stones mentioned in Revelation it is only one precious stone mentioned in Genesis - the onyx stone. I believe that this principle is the same. The onyx stone is a precious stone. Precious stones are caused by either heat or pressure and the flow of water.Under the adverse circumstances of all kinds the Holy Spirit operates to transform the believer into a precious building block for the city of God - New Jerusalem.The Triune God is therefore depicted in the gold of Havilah, the bdellium, and the onyx stone. These substances represent the Father's divine nature, the Son's poured out life, and the Holy Spirit's transforming operation.Even in the first book of the Bible, Genesis, God already knows what will take place in His need to carry out His plan of salvation. Man is created for the eternal purpose of God. And falling away in sin, God must do a remdial work and bring man back to His eternal purpose.God is essentially three-one in His being. And God is economically three-one in His carrying out His salvific operation to bring man back to the eternal purpose of the Creator God.In the New JerusalemEdited by jaywill, : No reason given.

It is mysterious that christians have a problem embracing a full and pristine monotheism, namely of focusing on what they percieve as the father [Creator]. It is mysterious because of the seemingly impossible occurence of this being over-turned, and that they also follow the OT, and also proclaim an equivalence of focusing their belief on the son - but cannot ever cross the treshold of evidencing this 'equivalence' by focusing on the father.If one listens to the reasoning for this - all that will come out of it is how they can vindicate their mode of belief via a percieved son, as opposed to why they cannot equally vindicate sole focus on the father. Now if anyone does not find this strange, they have to be in the midst of a strange phenomenon, which amounts to what I can only term as, 'plausable deniability'.The answer to this phenomenon is surely not vested in the reasonings given by christian in its defense; in fact they even do not realise their reasonings only affirm the antithesis of this mysterious phenomenon, that they are in fact substantiating the antithesis of their reasonings: it favors the reverse of their actions, and should only conclude in the father - because of their own criteria of equivalence. It defies every logic and is a mystery how christians get away with it and how they remain comfortable in it. Its like a different form of maths.One can see it is not a result of a lack of belief, mental ability or negative motives. But that just makes it all the more mysterious. Edited by IamJoseph, : No reason given.

As a Christian I believe that there is one God. So the "problem" of monotheism is solved. I have been making more of an emphasis with the Father being the source of the uncreated and divine life of which it is the purpose of God to dispense into man. In the OT book of Zechariah we see God's mysterious nature. Jehovah of hosts is both the Sender and the one being Sent. You have there God sending God. You have God being sent by God. This is another strong indication of God's triune being in the Old Testament itself. Here is the passage: In verse 8 the speaker is Jehovah of hosts - "For thus says Jehovah of hosts ..." Though the speaker is "Jehovah of hosts" He has been sent by Jehovah of hosts, amounting to God sending God - "For thus says Jehovah of hosts, After the glory He has sent Me against the nations ..."God the Speaker says that He has been sent by God against the nations who plunder Israel.In verse 9 Jehovah of hosts will wave His hand and as a result Israel will know that Jehovah of hosts has sent Him. That is they will know that Jehovah of hosts the one waving His hand was sent by Jehovah of hosts - "For I am now waving My hand over them, and they will be for plunder ... and you will know that Jehovah of hosts has sent Me.As in verse 8 so also in verse 9. The One sent is Jehovah of hosts. And the Sender is also Jehovah of hosts. God sends God. God is sent by God. And the people will know that God has sent God.Then we have verse 10 where Jehovah of hosts says that He will dwell in the midst of His people - "I will dwell in your midst, declares Jehovah". But in verse 11 as a result of Jehovah dwelling in thier midst they shall know that Jehovah has sent Him - "I will dwell in your midst, and you will know that Jehovah of hosts has sent Me to you."So the mysterious nature of the one God is revealed not only in the divine "Us" and "Our image" of Genesis. He is also revealed in Zechariah where Jehovah of hosts has sent Jehovah of hosts. And there the people will know that Jehovah of hosts has sent Jehovah to dwell in the midst as well as judge the plundering nations.These are both Old Testament passages.I will not be spending too much time to argue with IamJoseph about the Trinity. I may selectively refer to some objections. I will not answer all. Other posters are free to see things another way.Rather than refuting objections I will spend more time in these next few posts to deepen the analysis of the indications of the economy of the Triune God in Genesis with the help of the corresponding indications in the New Testament.Hopefully all of this will be related to the divine "Us".Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

The first 4 words on the OT answers this question, and this is also how I see this concluding:'IN THE BEGINNING GOD' [Gen].Even when christians can show how 1 = 3, or 3=1, in the final count there is only ONE.

Notice that to IamJoseph the creation act is very important. But besides the creation act there is the dispensing act of God.The act of creation was for the operation of dispensing. God created the universe for the purpose of dispensing His life and nature into His creation - mainly man.Why was a special council or special intra-divine fellowship mentioned in the connection to man's creation and not to the creation of anything else? Genesis 1:1 does not mention God saying "Let Us create the heavens and the earth" for example. It seems that this communion within the Godhead is mentioned only connection to the creation of a unique being - the human.With the creation of other things God simply spoke. But man is different. A tree, a mountain, a star, a whale, a horse, and other beings not give God cause to say "Let Us" do something. Man is different because man must open up his being by his free will in order for God to dispense Himself into him.Man can potentially give God a lot of trouble. What if he refuses to allow God as the divine life to flow into him? Perhaps this difference in the freedom bestowed upon man in conjunction with God's central desire to unite with man is the reason why a special council was held."In the beginning God created ..." informs us that God is the Creator."Let Us make man in our image, according to our likeness ..." may inform us about God the Dispensor.There is considerable more potential trouble for God in creating a creature with which He wants to unite, blend, and dispense His own life into in order to produce sons of God. This man must choose out of his freedom of will.Notice that there was no command to eat of the tree of life. It is just that the tree of life was in the center of the garden of Eden for man's choosing. And an alternative was there - the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.The divine "Us" hints of the Triune God which is only gradually unvieled more and more as Scripture progresses. The revelation of the Triune God reaches its clearest point in the gospel of John in chapters 14 through 17.To fulfill His eternal plan to flow into man that man would be mingled with God - the Father is the Source, the Son is the course, and the Holy Spirit is the transmission - the flow of the divine eternal life into His people. This passage brings this out well: All that the Son possesses is the Father's. The Son is the embodiment of all the riches possessed by the Father. And all the riches sourced from the Father and embodied in the Son will be declared to the disciples. That means the Holy Spirit is the final reaching of man to dispense into man the riches of the Father which have been embodied in the Son.In His operation the Trinity carries out His eternal purpose to impart God into man that man and God would be united in a "organic" mingled union. The organic mingled union produces sons of God.Again, a picture is worth a thousand words. So let us review again a picture in the conclusion of the Bible: 1.) There are not two thrones - one for God and one for the Lamb. It is one throne - the throne (singular) of God and of the Lamb.The Lamb of course refers to the Redeemer, the Messiah Jesus Christ, God's Suffering Righteous Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the whole world on His cross.2.) The Father God is in the Lamb. This is proved by Revelation 21:23 - Therefore the Redeemer is a LAMP - "its lamp is the Lamb". Within the lamp of the Lamb is the light which is God. The glory of God shines out from within the lamp of the Lamb meaning that Christ is the embodiment of the Father.We have now the Father in the Son as the light is within the lamp. We have the glory of the Father radiating out from within the Lamb of the God the Redeemer - the God-Man Jesus sitting on the throne God and of the Lamb.And out from the throne the Holy Spirit as seen in "a river of water of life" pouring out of the throne into the city New Jerusalem. This is a picture of the Triune God dispensing His eternal and divine life from the Father, embodied in the Redeemer, and dispensed and imparted into man through the Holy Spirit as divine life.The divine "Us" Who made man in His image is now the Triune God - the three - one God upon the central throne of the eternal city flowing out of Himself His divine nature into the corperate entity of the New Jerusalem.This is a picture of the meaning of human life. This is also a picture of the meaning of the universe and why God has created the heavens and the earth in the beginning. It is that the divine "Us" might carry out His administration upon His eternal throne by means of imparting, dispensing, pouring out Himself as eternal life into this corperate entity New Jerusalem.God becomes life to man. Man not only knows of God but lives God. God mass produces the Son of God in many sons according to His eternal purpose: The God-man on the throne in New Jerusalem is the Firstborn among many brothers, ie. many sons of God. The entire New Jerusalem is a symbol of the many brothers -the many sons of God.On her foundations are the names of the twelve apostles of Christ. And on her gates are the names of the twelve tribes of Israel. Both the Old Covenant saints who believed in Christ's coming and the New Covenant saints who believed in Christ when He came, are included.The garden of Genesis has become now a built up city. The tree of life representing the very life of God Himself to be dispensed into man is seen in both.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Now, if possible I will try to introduce a new level in the discussion of the "Us" of Genesis.The oneness of the Trinity in the Godhead is the one and only sure hope for the oneness of mankind.The great "Us" in Genesis Who said "Let Us make man in our image, according to Our likeness ..." is Himself the ultimate source for the oneness of the various peoples on the earth.In His salvation the Triune God infuses the eternal unity of His being into the race of saved human beings. This oneness of God's being then gradually swallows up the division among peoples to constitute the those who are granted eternal life as God's sons, to be one even as the Son and the Father are one.The ultimate manifestation of this infused, imparted, dispened oneness is not now fully seen. It is partially experienced in the One New Man of the normal Christian church life.In eternity it will be fully realized as the believers are perfected into its perfection by way of process.Here in this prayer of Jesus to the Father we should realize that it must be answered by God. This request of Jesus to His Father is perhaps the most powerful petition of God in the universe and all eternity. It must be answered. And the fulfillment of this petition is revealed symbolically in the New Jerusalem of Revelation 21 and 22.But here is the portion of the mighty petition from the Son of God to the Father that I wish to draw your attention to: Here again the Divine "Us" is mentioned in addition to Genesis 1:26. Christ prays and asks the Father that He would bring all of His believers into He and the Father as the Divine "Us". And the Divine "Us" is also spoken of as the Divine "We" in verse 22:"And the glory which you have given Me I have given to them, that they may be one even as WE are ..."Here is how the oneness is defined and echoes the oneness of the mutually indwelling Triune God:"That they all may be one; EVEN as You Father are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in US ..."The Son prays that the redeemed and saved would be processed into oneness in Him. And He is in the Father and the Father is in Him. This mutual indwelling is expanded now to the saved humanity. The Triune God remains the HEAD and the SOURCE of the salvation and the oneness. The Body of Christ is processed into a oneness in the Divine "Us" by virtue of the fact that they possess the divine life of the Trinity and have grown to LIVE by that life.Put in other words, this petition of Jesus is a request that God would expand the mingling and union of Divinity and humanity to include those redeemed and born of the divine life of the Triune God.I will not discuss it now but there is another aspect here which is not readily grasped by many evangelicals let alone unbelievers in Christ. That is that some people who will consitute the world in eternity will have an everlasting life but were not born again.These are the nations outside of the New Jerusalem who walk by her light. This a special class of people who are granted everlasting life but do not have the Holy Spirit idwelling them through New Testament regeneration.This website is excellent on the subject of regeneration -Witness Lee & Watchman Nee teach regenerationSome may object to this. Others may be relieved. To those who object I say that I accept the burden to prove that this is so from the Bible.To those who are relieved I caution - This special class of unregenerated yet saved people probably will not include anyone who is able to read this post today. I caution you not to use this as an excuse to receive Jesus as the Lord and Savior.Don't grumble reader. If you read any of my discussions you know that "I am not ashamed of the Gospel". I am a little bit preachy. I discuss things here in this Forum in the hope that some would believe the Bible, believe in Christ, and be saved.I confess that, if you didn't already know that.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.