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Member (Idle past 1343 days) Posts: 9069 From: god's waiting room Joined: |
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Author | Topic: the sin of sodom | |||||||||||||||||||||||
IamJoseph Member (Idle past 3668 days) Posts: 2822 Joined: |
Abraham has a lot to do with Sodom: he had a nephew living in that country, and conducted a battle to extricate him from a hijacking.
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Rrhain Member Posts: 6351 From: San Diego, CA, USA Joined: |
IamJoseph responds to me:
quote: (*blink!*) You did not just say that, did you? Why do you think Lot has any chance of survival? Because Abraham stands up to god and calls him out on the evil cruelty he is about to inflict: Surely there is somebody that is worth saving and to destroy the city completely will destroy the innocent. Genesis 18:23 And Abraham drew near, and said, Wilt thou also destroy the righteous with the wicked?18:24 Peradventure there be fifty righteous within the city: wilt thou also destroy and not spare the place for the fifty righteous that are therein? 18:25 That be far from thee to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked: and that the righteous should be as the wicked, that be far from thee: Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right? Abraham then starts playing god. If god can find 50 people, he'll save the city. "50?" You mean the 45 innocents have to perish because you couldn't find five more? OK...if god can find 45 people, he'll spare the city. How about 40? OK...40. 20? I can see 20. Ten! Sold! How is this any different from Moses' numerous admonishments to god to calm down. The Hebrews are whining, falling away from god's law, and god talks himself into a frenzy, getting ready to kill them all. Moses has to talk him down: Exodus 32:11 And Moses besought the LORD his God, and said, LORD, why doth thy wrath wax hot against thy people, which thou hast brought forth out of the land of Egypt with great power, and with a mighty hand?32:12 Wherefore should the Egyptians speak, and say, For mischief did he bring them out, to slay them in the mountains, and to consume them from the face of the earth? Turn from thy fierce wrath, and repent of this evil against thy people. 32:13 Remember Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, thy servants, to whom thou swarest by thine own self, and saidst unto them, I will multiply your seed as the stars of heaven, and all this land that I have spoken of will I give unto your seed, and they shall inherit it for ever. 32:14 And the LORD repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people. quote: Incorrect. Moses uses the same argument, even invokes Abraham to get god to calm down. God is about to destroy his chosen people and Moses talks him out of it.
quote: Ahem. Modern science has its roots in Greek culture...a decidedly polytheistic culture. Rrhain Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.
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IamJoseph Member (Idle past 3668 days) Posts: 2822 Joined: |
quote: The difference is Moses is beseeching, but not so with Abraham, who is in fact correcting God and testing God but in a sincere way. That Abraham was thereafter blessed for his quest, is seen in the phrase, ALL MAY APPROACH - IN TRUTH. IOW, if it is sincere and for good intention, one may strive with heaven.
quote: Science, as an essence, comes from the OT. Long before the greeks translated the OT, the concept of the universe origins was contemplated by Abraham, and its source, namely creationism and monotheism: this marks the first intro of cosmology and philosophy, respectively. Thus we find the first written record in the OT of: The universe being finite - leading to today's BBT pondering; the first listing of a chronological emergence of life forms - leading to today's ToE; the first depiction of the earth in its primal stages; and the elimination of occultism as its source. Monotheism is perhaps the greatest sceintific thought, and this never came from the greeks - in fact, the OT's monotheism eventually prevailed over the Greek's Polytheism, because the greeks were great thinkers: they recognised the power of the OT. This fact may be Alexander's greatest accomplishment, far more than all the lands he conquered: it was he who pleaded with the Jerusalem Temple preists to part with the OT translation, even granting Judea autonomy for it. I take nothing away from the greeks here, and they are responsible for spreading their own knowledge and what they begat from the OT. The greek's greatest quest was to acquire a translation of the OT, which begat them Democrasy, alphabetical writings, and laws which instigated them to start the christian religion. This is also why christianity is the educator of the world, just as greece spread the value of philosophy. But these were not its originators. Medicine and philosophy also comes from the OT, while these are commonly subscribed elsewhere, eronously: the OT contained a host of philosophical books, psalms, and judiciary manuals - all of which predate greece writings. Is there a more powerful philosophical statement than 'LET THERE BE LIGHT'? Edited by IamJoseph, : No reason given.
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Coragyps Member (Idle past 734 days) Posts: 5553 From: Snyder, Texas, USA Joined: |
The greek's greatest quest was to acquire a translation of the OT, which begat them Democrasy, alphabetical writings, and laws which instigated them to start the christian religion. With all due respect, IaJ, this is made-up bullshit of very shoddy quality. Democracy based on the OT? I giggle. Give us chapter and verse.
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jar Member (Idle past 394 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
The topic in case you missed it is "the sin of sodom".
Nonsense like "Abraham has a lot to do with Sodom: he had a nephew living in that country, and conducted a battle to extricate him from a hijacking." has NOTHING to do with the topic. Immigration has been a problem Since 1607!
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IamJoseph Member (Idle past 3668 days) Posts: 2822 Joined: |
Democrasy has two counter-part laws: LET THE MAJORITY DECIDE; DO NOT FOLLOW A MAJORITY OF EVIL [CORRUPTED MAJORITY, AS IN A RIGGED OR ENFORCED ONE].
Both those laws are contained in the 613 OT laws. Giggle all you want, but better if you show us proof of any precedence, greek or any place else. Aside from democrasy, many other faculties were utilised by the greeks from the OT, including alphabetical writings and judiciary laws. The family/gay/diet etc were rejected. The first serious war for democrasy was between Moses and Korach, against the undemocratic law that only one tribe's biological offspring can assume the preisthood. Korach objected, and some 11,000 Israelites dies in this battle. What is so surprising here, when the OT contains a whole array of such laws, impacting national and individual issues?
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IamJoseph Member (Idle past 3668 days) Posts: 2822 Joined: |
quote: So you choose when you see an off topic - selectively? I never initiated the Abraham factor, but responded to a post. However, what you call the sin of sodom, can only be debated via Abraham: the sin is not seen described outside of these passages! The premise of Lot shows the battle pursuent to the bad ways of the Sodomites; the reason for Sodom's destruction is cited by an angel who visits Abraham. There is further reading of Sodom's sin in the Medrash. Sodom was one of the richest producing lands in the M/E, its grapes the size of apples. Yet this people engaged in robbery, hijacking, and perhaps the most gruesome slaughtering of innocent peoples: anyone caught helping a foreigner, had their children spiked on roof tops, not to mention the basest form of sexual deviancy. Sodom alligned with Ghomorah, and these constituted the most evil cities in recorded history. The ancient world was different in kind than degree, which is evidenced what some countries like Rome did, with emperors like Caligulah and Nero.
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jar Member (Idle past 394 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
I'm sorry but you seem to be just making shit up yet again.
IamJoseph writes: Yet this people engaged in robbery, hijacking, and perhaps the most gruesome slaughtering of innocent peoples: anyone caught helping a foreigner, had their children spiked on roof tops, not to mention the basest form of sexual deviancy. Sodom alligned with Ghomorah, and these constituted the most evil cities in recorded history. The ancient world was different in kind than degree, which is evidenced what some countries like Rome did, with emperors like Caligulah and Nero. Please cite chapter and verse to support your allegation that "anyone caught helping a foreigner, had their children spiked on roof tops" or "the basest form of sexual deviancy" or "Sodom alligned with Ghomorah, and these constituted the most evil cities in recorded history." How can you expect anyone to take anything you say seriously when you constantly just make shit up? Immigration has been a problem Since 1607!
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IamJoseph Member (Idle past 3668 days) Posts: 2822 Joined: |
quote: This just shows how much you know of the topic. What if I did show you such writings: what different would it make? I note there is never any retractions seen here, and if anything is evidenced, they simply fly to another issue. There is nothing in my post which is made up, but taken directly from ancient writings. If anyone wants to know about Sodom, outside of the OT, they can see this in books such as the Medrash - not part of christianity's version of the bible.
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jar Member (Idle past 394 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Please cite chapter and verse to support your allegation that "anyone caught helping a foreigner, had their children spiked on roof tops" or "the basest form of sexual deviancy" or "Sodom alligned with Ghomorah, and these constituted the most evil cities in recorded history."
How can you expect anyone to take anything you say seriously when you constantly just make shit up? Immigration has been a problem Since 1607!
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Rrhain Member Posts: 6351 From: San Diego, CA, USA Joined: |
IamJoseph responds to me:
quote: Incorrect. They both approach him in the same manner: "I know you're god, but you're about to do something stupid. Perhaps you should reconsider?"
quote: Incorrect. Science, as an essence, comes from Greek philosophy.
quote: But creationism isn't science. Instead, it was the Greeks who developed the concepts of observation as a philosophical method of measuring the world. It's why we know of people like Archimedes, Apollonus, Demosthenes, etc. It was the Greeks who put the lie to the Hebrew concept of a flat earth.
quote: No, that would be the Muslims. The Christians were busy burning the books. It's why it's called the "Dark Ages." If it weren't for the Muslims having acquired copies of the Greek texts and kept them alive, the people of the Renaissance would never had been able to rediscover them.
quote: Judaism had nothing to do with it. The patron god system was pretty much doing it for them. There's a reason that the city is called "Athens." There's a reason that the word "deity" goes back to the Greek word "Zeus."
quote: A) That isn't a philosophical statement. B) Even if it were, yes, there is a more powerful statement: I think, therefore I am. I am hardly saying that the Greeks invented philosophy. However, the Greeks developed the philosophical standards we still use today. There's a reason that science used to be called "natural philosophy." It was developed by the Greeks. Rrhain Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.
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Rrhain Member Posts: 6351 From: San Diego, CA, USA Joined: |
IamJoseph writes:
quote: But that disproves your point. That only one tribe could ascend the priesthood was a biblical law laid down by god. So if that was an "anti-democratic law," then the law of god is against democracy. How does that jibe with Greek-style democracy? I should point out that only citizens had the vote...slaves, women, foreign nationals, none of them were allowed to vote. Rrhain Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.
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IamJoseph Member (Idle past 3668 days) Posts: 2822 Joined: |
quote: It does not disprove my point, which is that Korach used the democrasy card to state his claim, evidencing that democrasy precedes Greece. The issue that democrasy was here cast aside, is a seperate matter, and involves another issue in this instant, pointing to another rationale and goal.
quote: Yes, the greek democrasy did not include women and foreigners, but this factor does not make its democrasy premise faulty. The reason today's democrasy is faulty is because it does not adhere to the counter-part dual law of this premise adequately, namely not to follow a corrupted democratic viting system, as seen in communist and Islamic states. Democrasy cannot prevail w/o reciprocity. Democrasy jibes with greece, because these two laws are in the OT, and the OT was first translated by Greece. The precedence factor prevails. Greece spread democrasy to the world; but it came from the OT. Edited by IamJoseph, : No reason given.
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Rrhain Member Posts: 6351 From: San Diego, CA, USA Joined: |
IamJoseph responds to me:
quote: First, it's "democracy." Second, you're wrong. They are not in the Old Testament anywhere. You need to start providing chapter and verse, IaJ. I think you're referring to: Numbers 16:3 And they gathered themselves together against Moses and against Aaron, and said unto them, Ye take too much upon you, seeing all the congregation are holy, every one of them, and the LORD is among them: wherefore then lift ye up yourselves above the congregation of the LORD? That isn't a comment about democracy. That's a comment about pride ("Ye take too much upon you.") The Levites were hardly saying that the congregation makes the law. That's for god to do. They were saying that Moses and Aaron were putting on airs as if they were more important in the eyes of god. Democracy did not begin with the Jews. Rrhain Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.
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IamJoseph Member (Idle past 3668 days) Posts: 2822 Joined: |
quote: Examine the context properly, and one is seen as a pleading, another a marker. Moses pleaded, immediately following the verse, 'HE FOUND FAVOUR IN THE LORD'S SIGHT'. Moses pleaded for forgiveness of a peoples' failings 40 days and nights, while Abraham deliberated for a majestic premise of justice, involving a far removed, different nation he once battled with. In contrast, we find Noah did not do such pleading for humanity as Abraham, a failing there, thus it says Noah was rightious - 'IN HIS GENERATION' - meaning not when compared with Abraham.
quote: Both science and philosophy comes from the OT, before Greece. You should post some pre-OT greek science which says the universe is finite, or a philosophical greece statement before 'MAN SHALL NOT LIVE BY BREAD ALONE'. The psalms and prophetic writings of Isaiah, Jeremia, etc are pervasive with philosophical thought - and these predate any greek writings. But this is not to downgrade the knowledge given us by Greece: PI remains a magical wonder which opened science. I am certain the greeks shouted EUREKA when they discovered the OT - having seen nothing like it before.
quote: It is absolute and total science: cause & effect; finite universe; seperation of elements; galaxies, stars and moons; evolutionary grads of life forms; speech; calendar. This marks the first variance from the occult and head bashing dieties, ushering in the first cosmological description of the universe and the earth. That there are variances in some instances from today's held science premises, does not render it non-science; it is another scientific view, with a patterned and systematic imperical design. Namely, science. Which part is not?
quote: The OT does not subscribe or hint to a flat earth; this was christianity's lie. If one examines the OT calendar, there is no alternative to arriving at a sphearical, moving earth. It is not possible to devise the world's most accurate calendar with a flat earth. Now it is true the greeks would have opened science, as you say. But the first ponderence for impiricalism had to come from such premises in the first place. That the universe was finite, compels the mind to ask how the post-universe scenario came about and what is beyond it; that medicine was introduced in the OT as a virus infection, as opposed the spells of socerers - does the same thing: causes the mind to ask relevent questions; that the OT posits a supreme mind for creating the universe does the same also; that the OT declares the universe was created in wisdom - compells man to discover that work. The premise of evolution comes from Genesis too.
quote: The muslims got it from the Jews, and lost it when the jews left. The chief doctors, accountants, mathematicians, administrators in the islamic arab world were Jews, even before islam emerged, in ancient egypt [Joseph was the viceroy], in Babylon [Mordecai; esther]; and Maimonedies in the dark ages. The quran can also be traced to the OT, namely post 586 BCE when Jews lived in Arab states till last mid century. Both christianity and islam, and Judaism, got their current knowledge from the OT. It is also true that christianity forbid educating its peoples, forbidding even the translation or reading of the bible till printing emerged.
quote: The greeks were obsessed with the OT, which was Alexander's greatest quest. In 200 BCE, the greeks proposed an amalgamation of these two religions, which failed because of the Greek insistance of Zeus statues for worship. Greek won when christianity emerged, but Judaism did not lose anything either. Strange you should say Judaism has nothing to do with greece, rendering the translation as superfluous - it took 70 years, and a decree by Alex! The world today does not follow Hellinism?
quote: I contest you on that. You are - well before you start to think. Mutes are too. You will find that the greeks had an accepted premise an ugly child could be killed off: very limited thinking here compared to the OT philosophy of the sacredness of life. The greeks had no philosophy of the rights of slaves; the premise of equal rights for all comes from the OT's majestic philosophy. You think and are - because of the OT laws.
quote: Not so. This premise is held only because christianity was hell-bent on disassociating any merits to Judaism, and greece was seen as a christian nation. Thus, everything which comes from the OT is presented as the possession of or to cater to the NT. Islam does the same - both figured their doctrines with the belief Israel was no more, and her booty up for grabs: Moses is presented as a Muslim - with not a mention of his true religion and ethnicity; Jerusalem is presented as an islamic state and its mosque called the 3rd holy place of muslims - w/o any reference this is the 1st holy place of the jews - these are also a lie by omission. Greece was fully alligned under Rome when Judea countered it with the greatest philosophical war in all humanity's history - and it is not even mentioned in the NT: 'WHEN FREEDOM OF BELIEF - BECAME MIGHTY ROME'S GREATEST WAR' Israel won. Edited by IamJoseph, : No reason given.
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