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Author Topic:   Are there two Christs in the Bible?
ramoss
Member (Idle past 602 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 15 of 109 (345759)
09-01-2006 2:29 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by jaywill
08-15-2006 5:13 PM


Re: figurative interpretations
You are assuming that in the Jewish faith, there is only one annointed one. This is not true. THere are many annointed ones, including some that aren't even Jewish (such as Cyrus)
In general, an annointed one was either the King, or the High Priest of the Temple.
The hope for the Messiah by the Jews that was prevalent from the 2nd century bce to the 2nd century ce was the hope of the return of a human king from the house of David that would kick the forgeiners out, and be 'home rule' so to speak.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by jaywill, posted 08-15-2006 5:13 PM jaywill has not replied

  
ramoss
Member (Idle past 602 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 31 of 109 (350219)
09-19-2006 8:59 AM
Reply to: Message 25 by Hyroglyphx
09-14-2006 8:05 PM


Re: Two Christs or two different times?
First of all, when it comes to the Jewish expectations of the Messiah, the expections are to be 'From the seed of David'.. 'From the root and branch of Jesse'. This specificlaly means an unbroken line through the male line.. father to son, and no adoptions.
Second of all, according to the New Testament, Mary is a Levite. She is cousins with the mother of John the Baptist, who is a levite. This eliminates the potential that either Luke's or Matthews Geneology refers to Mary's line.
It is easy to reinvent the wheel, and try to retrofit something into a huge book if you are only looking at a couple of lines out of context. If you look at Isaiah 9:6-7 in context, and you understand the cultural references, you will understand that Isaiah 9:6-7 is a reference to the King Ahaz's son, Heziekel. Literally, Heziekel means
'God is stength', (Or Migthy God).
As for Matthews geneology, it goes through a cursed line. That disqualifies any decendant throught that line of becoming the Messiah.
There is no 'fall of man' as you are describing it in Genesis. That is
the exgenesis of Augustus, based on the misinterpetation of Paul.
None of the words of Isaiah have anything to do with Jesus. Isaiah was talking about things that were immediate as a sign to King Ahaz.. and therefore a child born 700 years later would be irrelavent to King Ahaz.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by Hyroglyphx, posted 09-14-2006 8:05 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by Hyroglyphx, posted 09-19-2006 1:17 PM ramoss has replied
 Message 53 by thehousethatGodbuilt, posted 02-11-2009 10:14 AM ramoss has not replied

  
ramoss
Member (Idle past 602 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 33 of 109 (350646)
09-20-2006 10:10 AM
Reply to: Message 32 by Hyroglyphx
09-19-2006 1:17 PM


Re: Two Christs or two different times?
The Jews were also expecting a warrior messiah who would destroy the Roman occupiers. It just shows our lack of erudition on the matter.
“Is this man Jehoiachin a despised, broken pot, an object no one wants? Why will he and his children be hurled out, cast into a land they do not know? O’ land, land, land, hear the Word of the Lord! This is what the Lord says: ”Record this man as if childless, a man who will not prosper in his lifetime, for none of his offspring will prosper, none will sit on the throne of David or rule anymore in Judah.” -Jeremiah 22:28-30
And then a few chapters later we read:
“In those days and at that time I will make a righteous Branch sprout from the line of David; He will do what is just and right in the land. In those days, Judah will be saved and Jerusalem will live in safety. This is the Name by which he will be called: ”The Lord Our Righteousness.’ For this is what the lord says, ”David will never fail to have a man sit on the throne of the house of David." -Jeremiah 33:14-17
You have correctly identified why Jesus can not have been the Messiah.
He comes from a cursed line, as shown by your quotes. That shows that
the line has to go from David through Solomon.
Mary and Elizabeth were related just as John and Jesus were related through them, however, this does not mean that Miryam was not from the tribe of Judah. Elizabeth could easily have been a Levite while Mary was from Judah because it does not mention how closely they are related. If Mary was the daughter of Heli as stated in the gospel of Luke, then Jesus was strictly a descendant of David, not only legally through his reputed father, but rather by direct personal descent through Mary. We also know that she had no brothers since she had no brothers. Mary was an heiress to that throne and therefore her husband, according to Halacha, was reckoned among her father's family as his son. So then, Joseph was the actual son of Jacob and the legal son of Heli. In a word, Matthew shows us Jesus' right to the throne through legality and Luke, through His natural pedigree. Understand now how difficult it is to be the messiah?
What human being doeswhat only God can do, spoken throughout messianic scripture, and can be a living descendant of David and yet avoid the curse? Its impossible. Therefore, just as YHWH foreshadowed through Abraham, "God will provide HIMSELF the acceptable sacrifice." Jesus came to us Mashiac ben Yosef to be our suffering servant, but He will come back to us with glory to subjugate the nations as Mashiac ben David.
In those days, it was extremely difficult for people to marry outside of their tribe, and Elizabeth has been shown to be a levite. There is no scriptural reason, (except that Matthew and Luke disagree) to say that one is Mary's,and the other is Josephs. The line has to go through the MALE line, which makes Mary's lineage irrelavent anyway.
There is much more scriptural evidence for her to be a levite than from the House of Judah though. I would like to see what passage in the New Testament that points to either of the lineages being of Mary though. Maybe you can show the explicit line in the new testament that points that out??
No other prophet so beautifully gives us messianic scripture than Isaiah. King Ahaz, huh? King Ahaz was a ruthless king who didn't get to be burried in the royal tombs because nobody liked him. So, how is it that Isaiah should prophesying or speaking about King Ahaz in a positive light? Explain to me why you think Isaiah is talking about King Ahaz and not Jesus.
The sign was TO king Ahaz, not about King Ahaz. Let's look at what Isaiah wrote
Isaiah 7:1-4
quote:
7:1 And it came to pass in the days of Ahaz the son of Jotham, the son of Uzziah, king of Judah, that Rezin the king of Syria, and Pekah the son of Remaliah, king of Israel, went up toward Jerusalem to war against it, but could not prevail against it. BOM: 2 Nephi 17:1-25
7:2 And it was told the house of David, saying, Syria is confederate with Ephraim. And his heart was moved, and the heart of his people, as the trees of the wood are moved with the wind.
7:3 Then said the LORD unto Isaiah, Go forth now to meet Ahaz, thou, and Shearjashub thy son, at the end of the conduit of the upper pool in the highway of the fuller's field;
In those days, Ahaz was the House of David. The sign Isaiah was giving was to King Ahaz.
What was King Ahaz worried about?? It says it in Isaiah
quote:
7:8 For the head of Syria is Damascus, and the head of Damascus is Rezin; and within threescore and five years shall Ephraim be broken, that it be not a people.
7:9 And the head of Ephraim is Samaria, and the head of Samaria is Remaliah's son. If ye will not believe, surely ye shall not be established
And what was the sign?
quote:
7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a young maiden has conceived and will soon bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.
7:15 Butter and honey shall he eat, that he may know to refuse the evil, and choose the good.
7:16 For before the child shall know to refuse the evil, and choose the good, the land that thou abhorrest shall be forsaken of both her kings.
As you can see from CONTEXT, King Ahaz was worried about the King of Assyria. Isaiah's sign was to King Ahaz, and the sign was a time period from the birth of a child, to the time the child was old enough to know good from evil. By this time, the problem King Ahaz was facing will have been resolved. No messiah in those passages.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by Hyroglyphx, posted 09-19-2006 1:17 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied

  
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