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Author Topic:   Are there two Christs in the Bible?
Brian
Member (Idle past 4949 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 76 of 109 (504517)
03-30-2009 8:04 AM
Reply to: Message 73 by Peg
03-30-2009 4:02 AM


Re: Two Messiahs
Solomn isnt in Mary's line, he shows up in Jospehs line.
And since Joseph was not Jesus' father, unless we rule out the Virgin Birth, then Joseph's line is of no use.
Mary was of the priestly line and Joseph was of the Davidic kingly line.
Apart from Mary's line being of no use, if it is her geneology that is given it goes through Nathan which is equally of no use.
There are a number of lines of evidence that Mary was of the Priestly tribe. She was the daughter of Heli who was of the priestly tribe.
A little problem is that the Bible does not give Mary's geneology does it, and even if it did the bloodline never goes through females.
The Bible itself proves that Jesus was no Messiah.
A nice guy probably, but Messiah, well never in a milion years.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 73 by Peg, posted 03-30-2009 4:02 AM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 78 by Peg, posted 03-31-2009 1:35 AM Brian has replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1931 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 77 of 109 (504532)
03-30-2009 12:04 PM
Reply to: Message 75 by Brian
03-30-2009 7:58 AM


Re: Two Messiahs
It is not as simple as a yes or no answer because there is doubt about the virgin birth scenario.
Perhaps you have doubt about the virgin birth of Christ.
I don't have any doubts concerning this.
If you wish to claim that Jesus is His own father then yes it is an error.
I only "wish" to follow what the Scriptures say.
Christ the Son "given" is also to be called "Eternal Father" in the prophesy of Isaiah 9:6. This touches on the nature of the Triune God. To see Him is the see the Father (John 14:9) and He and the Father mutually co-inhere(John 14:10). The Father lives in the Son and the Son lives in the Father.
Not only is the born child equal to "Mighty God" in Isaiah 9:6. But the "son ... given" is the "Eternal Father" in the prophecy.
These passages in Isaiah 9:6 and John 14 are about the incarnation of Christ as the God - Man. Before I go on to the matter of His human side I would say one other thing about His being God / Man.
Christ Himself, in the book of Revelation, says that He is not only the Offspring of David but the Root of David as well.
"I Jesus have sent My angel to testify to you these things for the churches, I am the Root and the Offspring of David, the bright morning star." (Rev. 22:16)
Because Jesus is God incarnated He is God in eternity past. Being God He is the source of David. The God of David incarnated to be the Offspring of David through His incarnation and virgin birth via the woman Mary who was a descendent of David.
In His divinity Christ is the Root, the source, of David; in His humanity, Christ is the Offspring, the issue of David. Christ said He was the Root of David and Christ said that He was the Lord of David in His reference to Psalm 110:1 which He claimed prophetically as refering to Himself:
'Now while the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus questioned them, saying, What do you think concerning the Christ? Whose son is He ? They said to Him, David's.
He said to them, How then does David in spirit call Him Lord, saying, "The Lord said to my Lord, Sit at My right hand until I put Your enemies underneath You feet?"
If then David calls Him Lord, how is He his son? And no one was able to answer Him a word ...' (Matt. 22:41-45a)
First, I would emphasize the Christ as God, was the Lord of David, the source of David, the Root of David. Then I would point out that Christ the incarnated God is also the son of David. This fact you deny.
I do not see you reference a denial of this by the contemporeries of Christ in His earthly ministry. I don't see you pointing out that these Pharisees disputed there that the Man who stood before them could not be a descendent of David.
But on to this point of Jesus not being qualified to be as both Matthew and He Himself said - "the son of David, the son of Abraham" (Matt. 1:1), "The Root and Offspring of David" (Rev.22:16)
Should we trust Brian's way of figuring the "mistake" of the Bible or should we trust the Bible? I choose to trust the Bible.
This is one reason why on this matter I trust the Bible over your denial of Matt. 1:1 and Rev. 22:16.
God says to David:
"When your days are fulfilled and you sleep with your fathers, I will raise up your seed after you, which will come forth from your body, and I will establish his kingdom. It is he who will build a house for My name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom forever. I will be his Father and he will be My son, If he commits iniquity, I will strike him with the rod of men and wioth the stripes of the sons of men." (2 Sam. 7:12-14)
God here is commited to establish a descendent of David's on a throne forever and He it is who will build the house of God.
I have no problem with Solomon being a partial fulfillment of this prophecy. But according to what Jesus said, Solomon can at best only be a type of Himself as a greater recipient of this promise in an ultimate sense. Right here Jesus teaches:
"The queen of the south will rise up in the judgment with this generation and will condemn it, because she came from the ends of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon, and behold, something more than Solomon is here." (Matt.12:42)
Yes, Solomon is great. Yes, Solomon is a son of David who built the physical temple. Yes, Solomon had a throne established. But Christ comes saying that He is something more than Solomon. He is the greater Solomon. He, Jesus, is the greater One to whom Solomon points.
Solomon, accumulated 600 wives and 300 some concubines. These wives led him into idolatry. Solomon commited apostasy and led Israel into apostasy. The question here is are God's hands tied? Can God keep his promises with a greedy and idolatrous king, who is, nonetheless, the heir of David ?
God can partially fulfill His promise to David but not be tied down to have to make such a man as Solomon His messianic and eternal King. Christ comes to be the ultimate Solomon to whom the imperfect Solomon is a pointer, a symbolic and limited pre-curser.
Something more than Solomon has come in Jesus Christ. Not only is Christ the greater Solomon, He is Himself greater than the Temple (Matt.12:6) - "But I say to you that something greater than the temple is here."
But now look at God's promise to David's son Solomon which is the real issue, ie. must the bloodline to the greater Solomon come through Solomon ? Are God's hands tied ? Can it only be through the bloodline of Solomon that God reach His desired messianic son of David?
"Then the word of Jehovah came to Solomon, saying,
As for this house that you are building, if you walk in My statutes and execute My ordinances and keep all My commandments by walking in them, then I will establish My word with you, which I spoke to David your father ..." (1 Kings 6:11,12)
You will notice the conditional in this promise ... "IF". "IF" ... Solomon walks in Jehovah's statutes, executing Jehovah's ordinances, and keeping all of Jehovah;s commandments, "THEN" Jehovah will establish His word to David Solomon' father.
But what happen if Solomon DOES NOT fulfill the conditional ? If Solomon DOES NOT act as the son of David that God wants, are God's hands tied to fulfill His word through Solomon's bloodline?
The answer is no. God is too wise, to capable, and too powerful to allow Solomon to fail the condition FORCEING God to make his bloodline sit on the throne forever. In fact not only Solomon did not fulfill the conditional, leading Israel into idol worship and away from Jehovah, but some of his descendents God cut off from EVER being able to sit on that throne.
Here is where we come to Solomon's blood descendent, Jeconiah.
The prophet Jeremiah, speaking the word of God, stated that no descendent of Jeconiah would be on the throne of David.
"Is this man Coniah [Jeconiah] a despised, shattered container? Or is he a vessel no one delights in? Why are he and his seed thrown away and cast into a land which they do not know?
O land, land, land, Hear the word of Jehovah:
Thus says Jehovah, Write down this man childless, a man who will not prosper in his days: For none of his seed will prosper by sitting on the throne of David or by ruling again in Judah." (Jer. 22:28-30)
According to the prophecy in Jeremiah 22:28-30, NONE of Jeconiah's descendants would inherit the throne of David. If Jesus Christ HAD been a direct descendant of Jeconiah (in the bloodline of Solomon (Matt. 4:7-11), He would not have been entitled to the throne of David.
Although Jeremiah 22:28-30 says that all the descendants of Jeconiah are excluded from the throne of David, Jeremiah 23:5 says that God would raise up a Shoot to David, a King who woiuld reign and prosper.
God could keep His word to David yet not be bound to do it through Solomon - Jeconiah bloodline. The Shoot raised up to David to be King is Jesus. This prophecy confirms that Christ would be a descendant of David, although not a direct descendant of Jeconiah of Solomon's bloodline, and that this Shoot wuld inherit the throne of David.
"Indeed, days are coming, declares Jehovah, When I will raise up to David a righteous Shoot; And He will reign and act prudently and will execute justice and righteousness in the land.
In His days Judah will be saved, And Israel will dwell securely; And this is His name by which He will be called, Jehovah our righteousness." (Jer. 23:5,6)
You must be careful assuming that God's prophecy ties His hands. If there is a conditional on His prophecy, He can change His mind without changing His will. If Solomon and then Jeconiah prove to be unworthy recipients, He is still wise enough to seek another avenue to make His word come true.
Mary, was the virgin woman, a descendant of David, not through Solomon's bloodline, but through David's other son Nathan. . God traversed down another line coming from David. Therefore, Matthew's Gospel truthfully and not erroneously informs us that it is -
"The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham" (Matt. 1:1)
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This message is a reply to:
 Message 75 by Brian, posted 03-30-2009 7:58 AM Brian has not replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4919 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 78 of 109 (504561)
03-31-2009 1:35 AM
Reply to: Message 76 by Brian
03-30-2009 8:04 AM


Re: Two Messiahs
Brian writes:
And since Joseph was not Jesus' father, unless we rule out the Virgin Birth, then Joseph's line is of no use.
that is not necessarily true for the reason that 'sons in law' were legally viewed as 'sons' of the brides father.
It still gives Jesus the 'legal' right to take the throne of David.
quote:
"...it will certainly become no one’s until he comes who has the legal right, and I must give it to him." Ezekiel 21:27.
Brian writes:
Apart from Mary's line being of no use, if it is her geneology that is given it goes through Nathan which is equally of no use.
Why do you say that?
Nathan was a son of David by his wife Bath-sheba.
quote:
1Chronicles 3:1 And these became the sons of David that were born to him ...in Jerusalem: Shim′ea and Sho′bab and Nathan and Sol′omon, four of Bath-she′ba the daughter of Am′miel
The natural lineage of Messiah is traced, from David through Nathan and his descendants down to Jesus, via Marys father Heli.
Brian writes:
A little problem is that the Bible does not give Mary's geneology does it, and even if it did the bloodline never goes through females.
you are greatly mistaken because if we know mary's fathers genealogy, then we know Mary's genealogy.
Edited by Peg, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by Brian, posted 03-30-2009 8:04 AM Brian has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 79 by Brian, posted 03-31-2009 3:06 AM Peg has replied

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 4949 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 79 of 109 (504563)
03-31-2009 3:06 AM
Reply to: Message 78 by Peg
03-31-2009 1:35 AM


Re: Two Messiahs
that is not necessarily true for the reason that 'sons in law' were legally viewed as 'sons' of the brides father.
Even if that is true it still doesn't do for Jesus. He has no earthly father, if we accept the Virgin Birth, hence there is no bloodline.
You need to get this Mary thing out of your head as a female's geneology has no bearing on the bloodline.
It still gives Jesus the 'legal' right to take the throne of David.
Apart from the fact that it doesn't, we also have the added problem that Jesus was never crowned King, He simply was not the Messiah. It is difficult to accept that Jesus was the Messiah who would take the 'throne of David' when Jesus died 2000 years ago and was never crowned. A little bit of a problem that.
Why do you say that?
Nathan was a son of David by his wife Bath-sheba.
For the millionth time, the Messiah is to come from the blood of David through SOLOMON, how many times do you need to be told this?
The natural lineage of Messiah is traced, from David through Nathan and his descendants down to Jesus,
Why are you ignoring the prophecy in 2 Samuel, is it too vague for you?
Maybe 1 Chron. 28 is easier for you to understand?
And of all my sons, (for the LORD hath given me many sons,) he hath chosen Solomon my son to sit upon the throne of the kingdom of the LORD over Israel.
6 And he said unto me, Solomon thy son, he shall build my house and my courts: for I have chosen him to be my son, and I will be his father.
7 Moreover I will establish his kingdom for ever, if he be constant to do my commandments and my judgments, as at this day.
Forget Nathan, the kingdom to be established is Solomon's, hence Nathan's bloodline is of no use.
via Marys father Heli.
Where does the Bible say that Mary's father was Heli?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by Peg, posted 03-31-2009 1:35 AM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 80 by Peg, posted 03-31-2009 4:22 AM Brian has not replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4919 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 80 of 109 (504569)
03-31-2009 4:22 AM
Reply to: Message 79 by Brian
03-31-2009 3:06 AM


Re: Two Messiahs
Brian writes:
Even if that is true it still doesn't do for Jesus. He has no earthly father, if we accept the Virgin Birth, hence there is no bloodline.
You need to get this Mary thing out of your head as a female's geneology has no bearing on the bloodline.
Jesus does not need to have an earthly father to be the Messiah...he merely needs to be born in the line of King David... and he was. Both thru his mothers family and his step fathers.
It only matters that Mary's father is Heli who is of the priestly tribe. Female genealogy is very tightly linked with the fathers.
Brian writes:
Apart from the fact that it doesn't, we also have the added problem that Jesus was never crowned King, He simply was not the Messiah. It is difficult to accept that Jesus was the Messiah who would take the 'throne of David' when Jesus died 2000 years ago and was never crowned. A little bit of a problem that.
Your comment shows a misunderstanding of the role of the Messiah much like the JEws of Jesus day. Jewish sources agree with Luke 2:38 that the people at that time were waiting for Jerusalem’s deliverance. The Jewish Encyclopedia says "They yearned for the promised deliverer of the house of David, who would free them from the yoke of the hated foreign usurper, would put an end to the impious Roman rule, and would establish His own reign of peace." (1976, Vol. VIII, p. 508)
The account in John 6:15 says that they tried to make him an earthly king but when he did not fulfill their expectations, they rejected him....hence why they mockingly wrote 'king of the jews' on his torture stake.
But there are scriptures that show that the messiah was supposed to suffer and die...the hebrew scriptures were very clear about that even mentioning his burial. Isaiah 53 is a good place to start.
Brian writes:
For the millionth time, the Messiah is to come from the blood of David through SOLOMON, how many times do you need to be told this?
and again i'll say that he does...thru his adoptive father Josephs family as is seen from Mathews genealogy.
You seem to be ignoring the fact that Joseph was the legal father of Jesus...it does not matter that he was not the biological father, he was the legal father of Jesus.
Brian writes:
Why are you ignoring the prophecy in 2 Samuel, is it too vague for you?
Maybe 1 Chron. 28 is easier for you to understand?
And of all my sons, (for the LORD hath given me many sons,) he hath chosen Solomon my son to sit upon the throne of the kingdom of the LORD over Israel.
6 And he said unto me, Solomon thy son, he shall build my house and my courts: for I have chosen him to be my son, and I will be his father.
7 Moreover I will establish his kingdom for ever, if he be constant to do my commandments and my judgments, as at this day.
Forget Nathan, the kingdom to be established is Solomon's, hence Nathan's bloodline is of no use.
The blessing on Solomon was conditional though.. .Vs 9 says "And you, Sol′omon my son, know the God of your father and serve him with a complete heart... but if you leave him, he will cast you off forever"
Did Solomon leave God? YES. And when he did, like all other kings who did, he no longer had Gods favor. So why would you assume that Solomon would still be given that blessing if he didnt maintain his loyalty?
but that aside, the family line of Jesus thru his adoptive father Joseph is from Solomons family line as i said.
Brian writes:
Where does the Bible say that Mary's father was Heli?
M’Clintock and Strong’s Cyclopaedia (1881, Vol. III, p. 774): "In constructing their genealogical tables, it is well known that the Jews reckoned wholly by males, rejecting, where the blood of the grandfather passed to the grandson through a daughter, the name of the daughter herself, AND COUNTING THAT DAUGHTERS HUSBAND FOR THE SON OF THE MATERNAL GRANDFATHER "
This is why Luke says that Joseph was the "son of Heli."
quote:
Luke 3:23"Furthermore, Jesus himself, when he commenced [his work], was about thirty years old, being the son, as the opinion was,of Joseph,[son] of He′li,..."
Now if Joseph was the husband of Mary, but Josephs father is Jacob (as Mathew's genelogical table shows) then obviously Josesph's father is not Heli...rather Heli is his father in law because Mary is Josephs wife.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by Brian, posted 03-31-2009 3:06 AM Brian has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 81 by John 10:10, posted 04-15-2009 7:18 AM Peg has not replied
 Message 82 by Huntard, posted 04-15-2009 9:14 AM Peg has replied

  
John 10:10
Member (Idle past 2985 days)
Posts: 766
From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA
Joined: 02-01-2006


Message 81 of 109 (505674)
04-15-2009 7:18 AM
Reply to: Message 80 by Peg
03-31-2009 4:22 AM


Re: Two Messiahs
Some seem to miss the "if" in 1 Chron 28:7,
"I will establish his kingdom forever if he resolutely performs My commandments and My ordinances, as is done now."
The Messianic line through Solomon was cut off because many of the kings that followed after Solomon were evil and departed from the ways of the Lord. Therefore, the Messianic line came through Nathan to Mary, fulfilling the prophesy of Gen 3:15,
"And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her seed; He shall bruise you on the head, and you shall bruise him on the heel."
Men have seeds, but women have eggs, and God was the Father of Jesus as the Word became flesh (John 1:14), and was not created (Phil 2:5-11).
Edited by John 10:10, : No reason given.
Edited by John 10:10, : added reference

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Huntard
Member (Idle past 2285 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 82 of 109 (505679)
04-15-2009 9:14 AM
Reply to: Message 80 by Peg
03-31-2009 4:22 AM


Re: Two Messiahs
Peg writes:
It only matters that Mary's father is Heli who is of the priestly tribe.
To help Brian out a bit, I would like you to answer me this one question: Where in the bible does it say Heli was Mary's father?

I hunt for the truth

This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by Peg, posted 03-31-2009 4:22 AM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 83 by Peg, posted 04-16-2009 6:28 AM Huntard has replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4919 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 83 of 109 (505748)
04-16-2009 6:28 AM
Reply to: Message 82 by Huntard
04-15-2009 9:14 AM


Re: Two Messiahs
Huntard writes:
Where in the bible does it say Heli was Mary's father?
Only indirectly.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by Huntard, posted 04-15-2009 9:14 AM Huntard has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 84 by Huntard, posted 04-16-2009 7:07 AM Peg has replied

  
Huntard
Member (Idle past 2285 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 84 of 109 (505751)
04-16-2009 7:07 AM
Reply to: Message 83 by Peg
04-16-2009 6:28 AM


Re: Two Messiahs
Huntard writes:
Where in the bible does it say Heli was Mary's father?
peg writes:
Only indirectly.
In other words, it doesn't. Thanks for clearing that up.

I hunt for the truth

This message is a reply to:
 Message 83 by Peg, posted 04-16-2009 6:28 AM Peg has replied

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 Message 85 by Peg, posted 04-17-2009 6:04 AM Huntard has not replied
 Message 86 by jaywill, posted 04-20-2009 7:26 AM Huntard has not replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4919 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 85 of 109 (505791)
04-17-2009 6:04 AM
Reply to: Message 84 by Huntard
04-16-2009 7:07 AM


Re: Two Messiahs
you're welcome

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jaywill
Member (Idle past 1931 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 86 of 109 (505923)
04-20-2009 7:26 AM
Reply to: Message 84 by Huntard
04-16-2009 7:07 AM


Re: Two Messiahs
In other words, it doesn't. Thanks for clearing that up.
In other words perhaps Huntard prefers this: analysis and detective work may always be used to cast doubts on the veracity of Scripture but never to aid in the confirming of its veracity.
Heli the father-in-law of Joseph, thus Mary's father - perhaps according to case of Numbers 27:1-8 and 36:1-12 in which a regulation was made by God that if any parents had only daughters as heirs, the inheritance would go to the daughters, who would then have to marry a man of their own tribe in order to keep their inheritance within that tribe.
If one believes as many Christians do, that all Scripture is a record of the Bible's central focus, Jesus Christ, then it is easy to see that even this divinely recorded regulation was related to Christ's geneology.
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jaywill
Member (Idle past 1931 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 87 of 109 (505927)
04-20-2009 7:40 AM


Why do the inventors of "Two Christs" theory not also concoct a theory of "Two or More Yahwehs?"
In the Old Testament the God of Isreal shows multiple aspects of His actions and personality.
On just as valid grounds could they say that the Hebrew Bible must be speaking of more than one Yahweh?
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

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 Message 88 by John 10:10, posted 04-20-2009 8:00 AM jaywill has replied

  
John 10:10
Member (Idle past 2985 days)
Posts: 766
From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA
Joined: 02-01-2006


Message 88 of 109 (505928)
04-20-2009 8:00 AM
Reply to: Message 87 by jaywill
04-20-2009 7:40 AM


Why do the inventors of "Two Christs" theory not also concoct a theory of "Two or More Yahwehs?" The one and only Christ of the Bible answered this quite clearly in John 5:39-40,
"You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me; and you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have eternal life."
Those who are unwilling to come to this Christ will concoct all kinds of reasons why this Christ is not to be believed, let alone receiving the gift of eternal life He gives to those who are willing to repent of their sins.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 87 by jaywill, posted 04-20-2009 7:40 AM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 89 by jaywill, posted 04-20-2009 1:05 PM John 10:10 has replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1931 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 89 of 109 (505950)
04-20-2009 1:05 PM
Reply to: Message 88 by John 10:10
04-20-2009 8:00 AM


It is true. But Many skeptics actually do not search the Scriptures for life. In fact they may not search the Scripture at all themselves. They consult books that pose supposed biblical problems. Repeating these criticisms do give an impression that they have searched the Scripture and stumbled upon some difficulty.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 88 by John 10:10, posted 04-20-2009 8:00 AM John 10:10 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 90 by John 10:10, posted 04-20-2009 3:03 PM jaywill has not replied
 Message 91 by Peg, posted 04-21-2009 3:34 AM jaywill has replied

  
John 10:10
Member (Idle past 2985 days)
Posts: 766
From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA
Joined: 02-01-2006


Message 90 of 109 (505957)
04-20-2009 3:03 PM
Reply to: Message 89 by jaywill
04-20-2009 1:05 PM


As Jesus explained in John 5:39-40, the gift of eternal life is found in a Person, not in the Scriptures themselves. The Scriptures are given to us by God for the purpose of leading us to this Person - the Lord Jesus Christ. When sinners are willing to repent and ask the God of the Bible to reveal Himself to them, then they are on their way to enter into God's salvation through the blood of Jesus.
Keep up the great work of presenting the true Christ of the Bible who saves, delivers us from the power of sin, and empowers us with the gift of God's Spirit enabling us to live as we ought to live.
Blessings

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 Message 89 by jaywill, posted 04-20-2009 1:05 PM jaywill has not replied

  
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