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Author Topic:   Right Behavior Inherits Eternal Life
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 256 of 302 (266513)
12-07-2005 5:10 PM
Reply to: Message 255 by jaywill
12-07-2005 4:49 PM


Re: Purpose of the law
It seems that you were addressing your post to Carico, but you clicked my reply button by mistake.
Anyway, you're over-complistificating the whole thing.
I think that people emphasize the "evil" of sin too much. Adam wasn't "evil". All he did was eat some fruit. He screwed up, but not maliciously.
For the most part, sin is just that: screwing up, imperfection. The story of "the Fall" is just an explanation of why humans are imperfect, why we screw up. You don't need a multi-step "God's plan" to fix it. You just need to be aware of it. Try to avoid screwing up and try to fix what you do screw up.
Sin isn't mainly about mass-murder and orgies. Sin is stepping over the tramp in the doorway instead of trying to help him.
That's what Matthew 25 is all about. The sheep, those who looked after the least of their brothers, are rewarded. The goats, those who merely paid lip service to "God's plan" are punished.
It really is that simple.

People who think they have all the answers usually don't understand the questions.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 255 by jaywill, posted 12-07-2005 4:49 PM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 260 by jaywill, posted 12-08-2005 10:34 AM ringo has replied

AdminNWR
Inactive Member


Message 257 of 302 (266520)
12-07-2005 5:24 PM
Reply to: Message 255 by jaywill
12-07-2005 4:49 PM


Re: Purpose of the law
A suggestion for you, jaywill:
When you want to reply to a message, go to the bottom right of that message and click on the "reply" button.
At present you seem to be looking at the top right. Just above the top right is a reply button for the preceding post. Several of your posts have shown up as a reply to the post that preceded the one addressed by the contents of your message.
If you get the reply right, then the person to whom you are replying may receive an email indicating a reply. Also, the text to which you are responding appears on your screen below your edit window.
Thanks.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 255 by jaywill, posted 12-07-2005 4:49 PM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 259 by jaywill, posted 12-08-2005 10:18 AM AdminNWR has not replied

iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 258 of 302 (266774)
12-08-2005 9:58 AM
Reply to: Message 246 by jar
12-06-2005 11:59 PM


Re: Purpose of the law
jar writes:
In fact, a reading of Matthew 25 shows that the goats will be followers of Jesus, Christians while the sheep will most likely be Atheists, Agnostics and other assorted Pagans.
From the Clergy thread:
jar writes:
I happen to be a Christian.
jar writes:
Sure. If someone claims to be a Christian, then He is a Christian.
Thus you are a Christian. Thus you are a goat?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 246 by jar, posted 12-06-2005 11:59 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 265 by jar, posted 12-08-2005 12:02 PM iano has replied

jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 259 of 302 (266787)
12-08-2005 10:18 AM
Reply to: Message 257 by AdminNWR
12-07-2005 5:24 PM


Re: Purpose of the law
This is a test.
Thanks Admin.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 257 by AdminNWR, posted 12-07-2005 5:24 PM AdminNWR has not replied

jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 260 of 302 (266794)
12-08-2005 10:34 AM
Reply to: Message 256 by ringo
12-07-2005 5:10 PM


Re: Purpose of the law
Ringo,
======================
Anyway, you're over-complistificating the whole thing.
======================
I am beginning to have questions about the level of your bias.
A little story:
An astronomer and a theologian were talking. The astronomer says "I appreciate theology. I think the whole thing comes down to 'Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.'"
The theologian responds "Hmmm. I also appreciate astronomy. I think the whole thing boils down to 'Twinkle, twinkle, little star.'"
The nature of this forum calls for short and concise posts. I can't write a chapter here.
Some things are not so simple in interpretation. In application though, one may say "I gather this spiritual lesson from this passage. I should be kind to those suffering."
In application there is sometimes no need to consider other things which interpretation call for. Such as:
1. What is the throne of Christ's glory?
2. When will the nations be gathered before Him?
3. what events preceeded this event?
4. What events follow this event?
==============================
I think that people emphasize the "evil" of sin too much. Adam wasn't "evil". All he did was eat some fruit. He screwed up, but not maliciously.
===========================
I agree with some of this. After all, the tree that he ate from was not the tree of evil. It was the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
It seems that good as well as evil was represented by the tree.
The dichotomy there was not between good and evil. It was between God's life and the knowledge of good and evil.
========================
Sin isn't mainly about mass-murder and orgies. Sin is stepping over the tramp in the doorway instead of trying to help him.
That's what Matthew 25 is all about. The sheep, those who looked after the least of their brothers, are rewarded. The goats, those who merely paid lip service to "God's plan" are punished.
=========================
It good to get to a point where your pet peeves don't cloud you comprehension of the Bible.
I sense that you still have your axes to grind and they color very much what you want to see in the Scripture.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 256 by ringo, posted 12-07-2005 5:10 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 261 by ringo, posted 12-08-2005 10:53 AM jaywill has replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 261 of 302 (266797)
12-08-2005 10:53 AM
Reply to: Message 260 by jaywill
12-08-2005 10:34 AM


Re: Purpose of the law
jaywill writes:
I am beginning to have questions about the level of your bias... I sense that you still have your axes to grind and they color very much what you want to see in the Scripture.
This is the Bible Study forum and the Right Behaviour Inherits Eternal Life thread - not the "Lets psychoanalyze Ringo" thread.
Do you have anything to say about the topic? Particularly Message 256?
It seems pretty clear that all nations will be divied into two groups - sheep and goats - based on their behaviour. If you have a different interpretation, please support it Biblically.

People who think they have all the answers usually don't understand the questions.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 260 by jaywill, posted 12-08-2005 10:34 AM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 264 by jaywill, posted 12-08-2005 12:01 PM ringo has replied

jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 262 of 302 (266811)
12-08-2005 11:23 AM
Reply to: Message 253 by jar
12-07-2005 4:12 PM


Re: Purpose of the law
Tell me how do you put the quotes into a nice box, somebody?
Jar,
=====================
True, he may do so on an ongoing basis. IMHO, probably does
=====================
Yes. There is more than one judgment. And guess what? "For it is time for judgment to begin from the house of God; and if first from us ... ?" (1 Peter 4:17)
=============================
But that still has nothing to do with the passage from Matthew 25.
=============================
How so?
===========================
In there he gathers all the nations together. And divides them in two groups. Not three, two.
===========================
Well, it is true that it only mentions that He divided into TWO groups.
But there must be another group related to the teaching. That is the Lord's brothers down to the least of them.
Physically, I have no ground in that particular passage, to point them out. Logically though, they can not be either the sheep or the goats.
Now if I wanted to identify this third logical group, I could refer to a number of places in Scripture related to Christ's second coming. One place which I might refer you to is Daniel 7:9-10 which says:
"I watched Until thrones were set, And the Ancient of Days sat down. His clothing was like white snow, And the hair of His head was like pure wool;
His throne was flames of fire. A stream of fire issued forth And came out from before Him. (Dan.7:9,10a)
Now here's the clencher.
"Thousands of thousands ministered to Him, And ten thousands of ten thousands stood before Him.
The court of judgment sat, and the books were opened" (v.10b)
Now, here in this prophetic vision, you must admit that there are those who minister to the Divine One and those who stand before Him.
Now if those who minister to Him are the brothers down to the least, then this would be that third group. And of course those tens of tens of thousands which stand before Him, could be divided up into those to perish and those to be saved, ie. goats and sheep.
That is three groups. Am I right?
Everything seems to be there. The throne, the burning flame, those of His elect who minister to Him, and those to be judged standing before Him.
Now compare with Matt. 25 and see if a correspondence is way off or plausible.
===================================
The sheep are surprised that they were selected. Now if the groups contain belivers, then why the surprise? The sheep did not expect to be among the saved, they had no idea of why they were chosen, respond, "Are you sure?"
The goats though are surpised that they are being excluded. They expected to be among the saved. They are shocked that they are not included and respond "Say What?"
====================================
Though you draw a distinction between the reaction of the sheep verses the reaction of the goats, I detect none.
It seems that thier reaction, as recorded in the passage, is exactly the same. The results and destiny only differ.
If you compare verses 37 through 39 (the sheep) to verse 44 (the goats) there is no difference except some elimination of some words. I don't think you have strong ground to point out any difference in the reaction of the sheep verses that of the goats.
And the reaction of both is "When have we ... ?". Nothing much more is said then that.
=====================================
He then goes on to talk about how the decision on separation is made, and it's on behavior.
====================================
I agree. As I have before stated. Works is the key factor in this particular judgment.
===========================================
There is no direct mention of belief, but one very important alusion to it.
===========================================
There is an underlying belief to the two types of actions. But it is not recorded in this passage. I can show you where the underlying belief structure which gives rise to the works lies, perhaps latter.
Digest these thoughts to see if they make any sense.
This message has been edited by jaywill, 12-08-2005 11:23 AM
This message has been edited by jaywill, 12-08-2005 11:32 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 253 by jar, posted 12-07-2005 4:12 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 263 by ringo, posted 12-08-2005 12:01 PM jaywill has replied
 Message 266 by AdminNWR, posted 12-08-2005 12:02 PM jaywill has replied
 Message 269 by jar, posted 12-08-2005 12:25 PM jaywill has replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 263 of 302 (266817)
12-08-2005 12:01 PM
Reply to: Message 262 by jaywill
12-08-2005 11:23 AM


The case of Sheep v. Goats
That is three groups. Am I right?
I can only guess that you are suggesting that those who are "ministering" to the King are believers who have been "raptured"? That's a whole other topic, and I'm sure there are some around here who are willing to set you straight on that score.
If that is what you are suggesting, then only the "ministers" are Jesus' brothers? The sheep are the ones who treated believers properly and the goats are the ones who mistreated them?
Sooo... what you seem to be saying with your "three groups" is that you can get eternal life either by being a believer (minister) or by being nice to believers (sheep). Or you can get punished for mistreating believers (goat).
Quite frankly, that's the most bizarre idea I've heard in a while.

People who think they have all the answers usually don't understand the questions.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 262 by jaywill, posted 12-08-2005 11:23 AM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 270 by jaywill, posted 12-08-2005 12:33 PM ringo has replied

jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 264 of 302 (266818)
12-08-2005 12:01 PM
Reply to: Message 261 by ringo
12-08-2005 10:53 AM


Re: Purpose of the law
Ringo,
=================================
That's what Matthew 25 is all about. The sheep, those who looked after the least of their brothers, are rewarded. The goats, those who merely paid lip service to "God's plan" are punished.
It really is that simple.
=================================
I think you'll have to shoot a little straighter than that, gunfighter.
1.) Christ said as you did to the least of these "My brothers." He said nothing about "[your] brothers."
You are reading into the passage that He said to the sheep "Inasmuch as you did it unto the least of these [YOUR] brothers, you have done it to Me."
Doesn't say that. Then your second shot:
2.) The goats say absolutely nothing about God's plan. If God's plan is mentioned at all it is by Christ Himself:
"Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world" (v.34).
The goats don't pay any "lip service" to this at all in the passage. Neither group does.
And I also refer you to Daniel 7:9-10.
"Thousands and thousands ministered to Him" (v.10b) who was sitting on the throne of fire. And "ten thousands of ten thousands stood before Him, the court od judgment sat, and the books were opened" (10c).
If we divide the ten thousands of ten thousands standing before the Judge into those to be saved and those to be condemned, we get two groups. That would take care of sheep and goats.
Aside from these, the thousands of thousands who minister to the One on the throne, could be the brothers of the Christ, down to the least of them. They all minister to thier Lord.
That would be three groups.
With the fact that judgment in Matthew 25:31-46 is based upon thier works, I have no dispute.
When I said before that your explanation was erroneous, in that regard it is not. To that extent that was a miss speaking. Sorry.
To the extent that there is no third logical group in the passage, I have pointed out that there must be. And the related prophetic vision of Daniel certainly indicates that there is.
This message has been edited by jaywill, 12-08-2005 12:03 PM
This message has been edited by jaywill, 12-08-2005 12:06 PM
This message has been edited by jaywill, 12-08-2005 12:11 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 261 by ringo, posted 12-08-2005 10:53 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 268 by ringo, posted 12-08-2005 12:17 PM jaywill has not replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 265 of 302 (266819)
12-08-2005 12:02 PM
Reply to: Message 258 by iano
12-08-2005 9:58 AM


Re: Purpose of the law
Very possible, likely even.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 258 by iano, posted 12-08-2005 9:58 AM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 271 by iano, posted 12-08-2005 12:36 PM jar has replied

AdminNWR
Inactive Member


Message 266 of 302 (266820)
12-08-2005 12:02 PM
Reply to: Message 262 by jaywill
12-08-2005 11:23 AM


Re: Purpose of the law
Tell me how do you put the quotes into a nice box, somebody?
You can do that with:
[qs]Tell me how do you put the quotes into a nice box, somebody?[/qs]
The "peek" button allows you to see how other people format their messages. When replying, the "dBCodes On (help)" link to the left of the edit window will give you access to various options.
This message has been edited by AdminNWR, 12-08-2005 11:03 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 262 by jaywill, posted 12-08-2005 11:23 AM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 267 by jaywill, posted 12-08-2005 12:08 PM AdminNWR has not replied

jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 267 of 302 (266821)
12-08-2005 12:08 PM
Reply to: Message 266 by AdminNWR
12-08-2005 12:02 PM


Re: Purpose of the law
Test.
You can do that with:
Thanks Admin.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 266 by AdminNWR, posted 12-08-2005 12:02 PM AdminNWR has not replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 268 of 302 (266823)
12-08-2005 12:17 PM
Reply to: Message 264 by jaywill
12-08-2005 12:01 PM


Re: Purpose of the law
jaywill writes:
Christ said as you did to the least of these "My brothers." He said nothing about "[your] brothers."
If you are suggesting that Jesus' brothers are not my brothers, you are going to have to back that up. Jesus was the Son of man, was He not? Well, so am I. Hence, we have the same brothers. QED.
The goats don't pay any "lip service" to this at all in the passage. Neither group does.
On the contrary, the goats say, in verse 38, "When did we see you a stranger and not take you in?" They thought that they could win salvation by simply proclaiming their belief. They thought they were off the hook because Jesus had never come to their door Himself.
Jesus made it plain that they were expected to do what He told them to do - i.e. "Love thy neighbour as thyself". But all they did was profess their faith. Lip service, not real service.
(Just to confuse you, I've discussed the rest of your post in my reply to your reply to jar. )
With the fact that judgment in Matthew 25:31-46 is based upon thier works, I have no dispute.
And that's the only subject of this thread.

People who think they have all the answers usually don't understand the questions.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 264 by jaywill, posted 12-08-2005 12:01 PM jaywill has not replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 269 of 302 (266824)
12-08-2005 12:25 PM
Reply to: Message 262 by jaywill
12-08-2005 11:23 AM


Re: Purpose of the law
The easiest way to see how someone does something, such as the quote boxes, is to click on peek, lower right corner of a post, when reading. It will open up another window that will show all the formatting controls. Also, on the left when responding you can find help. Click on help for either db code or html to see what we use for formatting.
And now back to our discussion.
I read the Bible quite differently than you and hold a completely different view of Christianity.
In Matthew 25 there is still only two, not three groups. The phrase "the least of these my brothers" does not seem to imply a third group but to the members of both the sheep and goats.
Daniel, one of the more classic tales in the Bible, seems to be refering to the angels, those who minister to him, and humans, those gathered before him. So it's still but two groups, in that case, angels and humans.
Though you draw a distinction between the reaction of the sheep verses the reaction of the goats, I detect none.
How can you possibly read Matthew 25 and not see the difference in the reactions?
sheep writes:
37Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
The sheep are shocked. They did not expect to be among the saved. Now that is not the reaction that you'd expect from a follower of Christ.
goats writes:
44Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
And the goats too are shocked, shocked that they are not included. That is the response you'd expect from a believer, one who thinks that because they are a Christian, they will get to rule over others, to be among the elect.
'Taint necessarily so though. They, like so many Christians today, simply didn't get the message, the message that it's not what you profess, but what you do. To show a modern example, they would be the folk that support the Defence of Marriage Act and other similar oppressive legislation.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 262 by jaywill, posted 12-08-2005 11:23 AM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 274 by jaywill, posted 12-08-2005 1:12 PM jar has not replied

jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 270 of 302 (266829)
12-08-2005 12:33 PM
Reply to: Message 263 by ringo
12-08-2005 12:01 PM


Re: The case of Sheep v. Goats
Ringo316,
I can only guess that you are suggesting that those who are "ministering" to the King are believers who have been "raptured"? That's a whole other topic, and I'm sure there are some around here who are willing to set you straight on that score.
Well, I didn't mention the rapture. I don't think it really matters here.
I think the ministering to the Lord is akin to what we are told in Acts 13:2 The prophets and teachers in the church in Antioch were seeing to the the interests of Christ:
"And as they were ministering to the Lord ..." (Acts 9:2a)
The brothers of the Lord are caring for the interests and plans of the Lord. It is the same in Daniel 7:10. There is a lot to do to rule with Christ over the saved sheep nations.
If that is what you are suggesting, then only the "ministers" are Jesus' brothers? The sheep are the ones who treated believers properly and the goats are the ones who mistreated them?
That is correct.
But as I said before I think Christians and Jews are the Lord's brothers in the passage. That would be a remnant of preserved Jews who become the saved Israel at the end of this age.
I have passages to back this up. But won't include them now.
Sooo...
Oh no. Here it comes.
what you seem to be saying with your "three groups" is that you can get eternal life either by being a believer (minister) or by being nice to believers (sheep). Or you can get punished for mistreating believers (goat).
Before, I said that this passage probably does not refer to anyone present at this time reading this discussion.
But in the transitional time, about three and one half years before the second coming of Christ, some people will be saved and transfered into the kingdom established by Christ on the earth, because they were considerate to the persecuted brothers of the Lord Jesus.
And I also previously warned that it would be foolish at this time to expect to be redeemed because of that today, that is IF one has no intention of believing in Christ the Lord and Savior.
This message has been edited by jaywill, 12-08-2005 12:39 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 263 by ringo, posted 12-08-2005 12:01 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 273 by ringo, posted 12-08-2005 12:53 PM jaywill has replied

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