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Author Topic:   Right Behavior Inherits Eternal Life
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 286 of 302 (266983)
12-08-2005 8:02 PM
Reply to: Message 283 by jaywill
12-08-2005 6:30 PM


Re: The case of Sheep v. Goats
jaywill writes:
You apparently don't want to draw a logical conclusion from your interpretation of the passage.
Let's look at the logic:
  1. All nations are called to judgement.
  2. The judgement separates the sheep from the goats.
  3. The goats are punished.
Clear enough so far?
  1. Everybody who does the will of God is Jesus' brother.
  2. The will of God is that we follow His commandments.
  3. The greatest commandments are:
    • Love God
    • Love your neighbour
Now we're ready to draw some conclusions.
  1. Everybody loves his neighbour at some time.
  2. Therefore, everybody is Jesus' brother.
  3. Therefore, some of Jesus' brothers will be punished.
I'm not "afraid" of the conclusion, as you imply. The conclusion is there in Matthew, in black and white.
... this is not the first Bible Study I ever had, Okay?
It's your first Bible Study here, which is why I've been trying to tell you that almost everything you have posted is off-topic. Please un-bunch your panties. There are people around here who aren't nearly as gentle as I am.
I think at this point, I would only want to ask you how seriously do you take the book of Revelation?
Start a new topic.
I believe that Matthew has something to do with Revelation and Daniel has something to do with the other two books.
Maybe so, but it looks to me like you're using a pet interpretation of Revelation and Daniel to contradict what Matthew says. Be very careful about going too far afield to find your context.
Do you want to isolate Matthew 25:31-46 from all other prophetic passages?
I don't look at Matthew 25 primarily as a prophetic passage. It's a passage that shows the difference between professing a belief and living a Christian life. You noted the preceding parables yourself. It's primarily a teaching passage. The fact that Jesus mentioned judgement doesn't make it central to the lesson.
I think the "Bible Study" should consider other portions of the Bible and how they relate together.
Only within the prescribed topic. You are pushing a pet interpretation about prophecy, which you will find some around here don't accept. A premise that your co-debaters don't accept is not going to contribute much to the discussion.
Are only the direct quotations of Jesus meaningful to you?
Certainly they are more meaningful. That whole Son of God thing, and all? He ought to have known what He was talking about, don't you think?
Do you feel that the surrounding comments of the gospel writers are error prone, faulty, full of mistakes....
Of course they are. Anything written by humans is bound to be imperfect.
We have lots of threads about that. Feel free to browse.
... and generally messed up what Jesus taught?
Now, that's a different question. Sure, it's possible that Jesus might not have been quoted accurately. But His teachings have to be looked at on their own, aside from the recoreded words.
Do they make sense? Does loving your neighbour sound like a good idea? How would our lives be improved if we were at constant warfare with our neighbours?
If the teachings make sense, if they work for us, then we can conclude that the teacher knew what He was talking about. We don't go at it backwards. We don't assume that the Bible is 100% true and what it says must be true, even if it doesn't work.
... what I quoted to you about "As many as received Him ..." in John's gospel. Does that comment of the Apostle John have no significance for you?
As I said before, those who truly "receive" Him will do His will - they will behave as He wants them to. If there is no outward manifestation of the "reception", then it is a sham.
Could you please show me the exact words by which you derive that the goats claimed to have received Him?
I did. Here they are again:
quote:
Mat 25:44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee hungry, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
They claimed that because they had not mistreated Him in person, they had done nothing wrong. They clearly had heard the teaching because they quoted it word for word. They must have thought they had complied with His wishes, else why would they think they didn't deserve punishment?
Where in the passage do they give "lip service" to the plan of God?
They believed that they had complied with God's plan and didn't deserve punishment. They believed that they only had to say "Lord, Lord" and He would be impressed. That is lip service. They believed that they only had to take care of Him if He came to thier door in person. But He made it plain that they were responsible for all of His brothers, all of their neighbours.
... if you try to develop a teaching that the disciples are never to discern anything about the motives of people....
We are all welcome to discern what we can about the motives of people. And one of the ways we do that is by how they behave, as opposed to what they profess. "By their fruits ye shall know them."
We are not allowed to judge who is in compliance with God's will and who is not. Therefore, we have to treat everybody as if they were Jesus Himself. That's practically the definition of the "brotherhood of man".
You seem to want to use "Judge not that you be not judged" as a means of destroying the boundary between those called out and those not called out.
I'm sorry if I haven't been clear. That is absolutely what I'm saying: We are not allowed to judge who is "called out" and who is not. For all practical purposes, ther is no boundary. We have to treat everybody as if they were Jesus Himself. No elitism. No special treatment for professing Christians. No separate "third group". Total equality under God.
So your Bible Study could be called "No Justification By Faith."
It isn't "my" Bible study, it's purpledawn's (and I expect a slap from her every time I post in it ).
If it was my Bible study, I'd call it "No Justification by Phony Profession of Faith - Only By Visible Deeds". Catchy, no?

People who think they have all the answers usually don't understand the questions.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 283 by jaywill, posted 12-08-2005 6:30 PM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 287 by jar, posted 12-08-2005 8:04 PM ringo has replied
 Message 288 by purpledawn, posted 12-08-2005 8:20 PM ringo has replied
 Message 297 by jaywill, posted 12-08-2005 9:30 PM ringo has not replied

jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 287 of 302 (266985)
12-08-2005 8:04 PM
Reply to: Message 286 by ringo
12-08-2005 8:02 PM


Re: The case of Sheep v. Goats
Please remember the second part of the two part Second Great Commandment. Love others, but also, love yourself.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 286 by ringo, posted 12-08-2005 8:02 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 289 by ringo, posted 12-08-2005 8:23 PM jar has not replied

purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 288 of 302 (266991)
12-08-2005 8:20 PM
Reply to: Message 286 by ringo
12-08-2005 8:02 PM


Re: The case of Sheep v. Goats
quote:
It isn't "my" Bible study, it's purpledawn's (and I expect a slap from her every time I post in it).
High five maybe.
I got worn out with iano, I think you are doing great with jaywill.
I have yet to see a supported presentation that on judgment day actions will not be judged for those with faith.

There are two ways of spreading light: to be the candle or the mirror that reflects it. -Edith Wharton

This message is a reply to:
 Message 286 by ringo, posted 12-08-2005 8:02 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 290 by ringo, posted 12-08-2005 8:24 PM purpledawn has not replied
 Message 293 by jaywill, posted 12-08-2005 8:58 PM purpledawn has not replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 289 of 302 (266992)
12-08-2005 8:23 PM
Reply to: Message 287 by jar
12-08-2005 8:04 PM


Re: The case of Sheep v. Goats
jar writes:
love yourself.
I don't forget, I just leave it out for brevity. I suppose I should learn to put it in, for the sake of others.

People who think they have all the answers usually don't understand the questions.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 287 by jar, posted 12-08-2005 8:04 PM jar has not replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 290 of 302 (266996)
12-08-2005 8:24 PM
Reply to: Message 288 by purpledawn
12-08-2005 8:20 PM


Re: The case of Sheep v. Goats
purpledawn writes:
I think you are doing great with jaywill.
Thank you very much. That means a lot coming from you. I have the greatest respect for you.

People who think they have all the answers usually don't understand the questions.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 288 by purpledawn, posted 12-08-2005 8:20 PM purpledawn has not replied

jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 291 of 302 (267005)
12-08-2005 8:32 PM
Reply to: Message 284 by jar
12-08-2005 6:33 PM


Re: The case of Sheep v. Goats
jar,
Revelations was very important, but refers to stuff that happened over a 1000 years ago, IMHO.
Are you a Preterist?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 284 by jar, posted 12-08-2005 6:33 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 292 by jar, posted 12-08-2005 8:35 PM jaywill has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 292 of 302 (267006)
12-08-2005 8:35 PM
Reply to: Message 291 by jaywill
12-08-2005 8:32 PM


Re: The case of Sheep v. Goats
Nah, just read what's there.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 291 by jaywill, posted 12-08-2005 8:32 PM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 294 by jaywill, posted 12-08-2005 9:16 PM jar has replied

jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 293 of 302 (267010)
12-08-2005 8:58 PM
Reply to: Message 288 by purpledawn
12-08-2005 8:20 PM


Re: The case of Sheep v. Goats
Purpledawn,
I have yet to see a supported presentation that on judgment day actions will not be judged for those with faith.
Before you break your arm patting yourself on the back -
I never said that actions will not be judged for those with faith. Not once did I say that.
In fact I gave five instances just prior to Matthew 25:31-46 in which I said the judgment of believers in Christ is indicated. That includes judgment upon their works.
I did say that there was more than one judgment. So the phrase "judgment day" needs the question "Which judgment?"
Ringo316,
As far as you being a gentlier kinder type? I can play hardball if you want.
But for the record, whatever others wrote here, I never said that the works of those justified by faith either do not matter or are not judged. So your favorite strawman won't work as far as I'm concerned.
There is one other thing I did say. I said that the judgment of the works of believers has nothing to do with their eternal redemption. It has to do with their reward or discipline during the 1,000 year millennial kingdom.
If you at all took Revelation seriously you would see that six times in chapter 20, PRIOR to the eternal age of the new heaven and new earth, it says that the saints of Christ will reign with Him 1,000 years.
In that intervening time BEFORE the eternal age spoken of in Revelation 21 and 22, the believers justified by faith are rewarded in varying degrees for how much Christ's life was able to be expressed from within them.
1.) The church age
2.) The Millennial age
3.) The eternal age
One error that you have is that you are applying a judgment of the living before the Millennial Age (#2) and interpreting it as the final judgment before the eternal age (#3).
Where are the dead mentioned in Matthew 25:31-46? Do you assume that "all the nations" includes those resurrected from the dead too? Why? What ground do you have to prove that this judgment is the LAST judgment?
No proof has been given that this is the last judgment. No proof has been given that the dead are inluded in this judgment. And in Revelation the LAST JUDGMENT is of the DEAD.
Now, where would you like to be slapped?
This message has been edited by jaywill, 12-08-2005 08:59 PM
This message has been edited by jaywill, 12-08-2005 09:00 PM
This message has been edited by jaywill, 12-08-2005 09:02 PM
This message has been edited by jaywill, 12-08-2005 09:02 PM
This message has been edited by jaywill, 12-08-2005 09:04 PM
This message has been edited by jaywill, 12-08-2005 09:05 PM
This message has been edited by jaywill, 12-08-2005 09:19 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 288 by purpledawn, posted 12-08-2005 8:20 PM purpledawn has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 296 by ringo, posted 12-08-2005 9:22 PM jaywill has replied

jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 294 of 302 (267011)
12-08-2005 9:16 PM
Reply to: Message 292 by jar
12-08-2005 8:35 PM


Re: The case of Sheep v. Goats
Nah, just read what's there.
I see. It all took place already?
Tell me when was Satan bound for 1,000 years so that he could not deceive the nations anymore (Rev.20:3)?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 292 by jar, posted 12-08-2005 8:35 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 295 by jar, posted 12-08-2005 9:18 PM jaywill has not replied

jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 295 of 302 (267013)
12-08-2005 9:18 PM
Reply to: Message 294 by jaywill
12-08-2005 9:16 PM


Re: The case of Sheep v. Goats
Poetic license.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 294 by jaywill, posted 12-08-2005 9:16 PM jaywill has not replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 296 of 302 (267015)
12-08-2005 9:22 PM
Reply to: Message 293 by jaywill
12-08-2005 8:58 PM


Re: The case of Sheep v. Goats
jaywill writes:
Before you break your arm patting yourself on the back
Look again. That ain't my arm.
I did say that there was more than one judgment.
And that would be, guess what... another topic.
We're only talking about one judgement in this topic.
As far as you being a gentlier kinder type? I can play hardball if you want.
Throw 'em as hard as you like. Shall I roll up my sleeves?
But for the record, whatever others wrote here, I never said that the works of those justified by faith either do not matter or are not judged. So your favorite strawman won't work as far as I'm concerned.
It's not a strawman. I'm saying that as far as judgement goes, there is no difference between "those justified by faith" and anybody else. One group, to be divided into two at the judgement.
I said that the judgment of the works of believes has nothing to do with their eternal redemption. It has to do with their reward or discipline during the 1,000 year millennial kingdom.
Yet another topic.
One error that you have is that you are applying a judgment of the living before the Millennial Age (#2) and interpreting it as the final judgment before the eternal age (#3).
Start a topic and back that up.
(I have to warn you though, I'm bored to tears with all that "millenium" stuff, so I likely wouldn't participate.)
Where are the dead mentioned in Matthew 25:31-46? Do you assume that "all the nations" includes those resurrected from the dead too?
I don't know of any nations where the dead are granted citizenship. Do you?
Why?
Does it ever occur to you that you might be taking the term "Judgement Day" a little too literally? It seems to me if I was God (though as far as you know I'm not ), I'd judge everybody as soon as they die instead of letting them rot in the ground for some arbitrary period of time. But that's just me.
Now, where would you like to be slapped?
Purpledawn can slap me. You haven't demonstrated that ability yet.

People who think they have all the answers usually don't understand the questions.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 293 by jaywill, posted 12-08-2005 8:58 PM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 298 by jaywill, posted 12-08-2005 9:36 PM ringo has replied
 Message 300 by jaywill, posted 12-08-2005 9:52 PM ringo has not replied

jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 297 of 302 (267016)
12-08-2005 9:30 PM
Reply to: Message 286 by ringo
12-08-2005 8:02 PM


Re: The case of Sheep v. Goats
Ringo,
Maybe so, but it looks to me like you're using a pet interpretation of Revelation and Daniel to contradict what Matthew says. Be very careful about going too far afield to find your context.
If the subject matter is "What occurs in the way of judgment when Christ 'comes in His glory and all the angels with Him' " other prophecies of the same theme are relevant to the context.
Thus the references to Daniel and Revelation.
Nice hip shot. But a little off target.
This message has been edited by jaywill, 12-08-2005 09:31 PM
This message has been edited by jaywill, 12-08-2005 09:31 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 286 by ringo, posted 12-08-2005 8:02 PM ringo has not replied

jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 298 of 302 (267019)
12-08-2005 9:36 PM
Reply to: Message 296 by ringo
12-08-2005 9:22 PM


Re: The case of Sheep v. Goats
Ringo,
Yet another topic
I see a patten developing.
Whatever brings out a weakness in your interpretation is "another topic."
Right!
This message has been edited by jaywill, 12-08-2005 09:37 PM
This message has been edited by jaywill, 12-08-2005 09:37 PM
This message has been edited by jaywill, 12-08-2005 09:38 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 296 by ringo, posted 12-08-2005 9:22 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 299 by ringo, posted 12-08-2005 9:44 PM jaywill has replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 299 of 302 (267021)
12-08-2005 9:44 PM
Reply to: Message 298 by jaywill
12-08-2005 9:36 PM


Re: The case of Sheep v. Goats
Whatever brings out a weakness in your interpretation is "another topic."
No. Another topic is another topic. And this one is about over.
Any weaknesses you see in my interpretations, you're welcome to "expose" in another topic.

People who think they have all the answers usually don't understand the questions.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 298 by jaywill, posted 12-08-2005 9:36 PM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 302 by jaywill, posted 12-08-2005 9:59 PM ringo has not replied

jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 300 of 302 (267023)
12-08-2005 9:52 PM
Reply to: Message 296 by ringo
12-08-2005 9:22 PM


Re: The case of Sheep v. Goats
Ringo,
Does it ever occur to you that you might be taking the term "Judgement Day" a little too literally? It seems to me if I was God (though as far as you know I'm not ), I'd judge everybody as soon as they die instead of letting them rot in the ground for some arbitrary period of time. But that's just me.
That's your style.
Now notice - Rev.20:4 speaks about a "judgment ... given" to the resurrected saints of God. Says it was "the first resurrection" (v.6).
Then Rev. 20:12 talks of another judgment, 1,000 years latter - "the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were completed" (v.5)
That is two resurrections and two judgments. They are separated by 1,000 years.
So when we say "day of judgment" or "judgment day" and you want to get specific you ask "Which judgment?"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 296 by ringo, posted 12-08-2005 9:22 PM ringo has not replied

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