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Author Topic:   Is it Rape or Not
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 241 of 260 (374678)
01-05-2007 10:44 AM
Reply to: Message 233 by Jazzns
01-04-2007 12:59 AM


Re: God Allowed Rape?
When it becomes too difficult for the biblical innerrantist to shoehorn God into the image they so desperately need to feel righteous they turn and run. What is worse is that they turn from biblical inerrantist to biblical god-is-what-i-want-him-to-be-no-matter-what-the-bible-actually-says-ists.
I have long graduated from the point of expecting that everything in the Bible has to give me a warm fuzzy. I like the fact that there are things in the Bible which I do not yet understand fully or agree with.
I know by this that the Holy Spirit is still working in my life. At one point I didn't like any of it. So the fact that there are still chapters or passages that I need to place on the "back burner" doesn't bother me at all.
I barely have time to explore the unsearchable riches of God's word and expecially the glory and splendour of God incarnate Jesus Christ in the New Testament. I am not being called to be a Israelite Jew with sword and sling conquering the land of Canaan. I am in the New Testament age where my task is to let Christ the real promise land spread throughout my being.
There's no rape in Numbers 31.
No command to rape there.
Some treacherous women were judged.
A greater number of young girls were saved and absorbed into the conqueror's society.
Some men were executed for their deceptive treachery.
And some others were slain.
I may have chosen not to include aspects of this account in the Bible had I been asked to write it. But I'm glad for the candidness of it. And I'm glad that it is included in the history of Israel.
And you Jazzns, and Voltaire, and Thomas Paine, and Bertrand Russell,and Carl Sagan, and all the other would be exterminators of the Bible will have long turned into dust and gone off to your varied rewards, whatever they are to be, and the splendid Holy Bible will still be here. Its translated into thousands of languages and still enlightens hearts and leading people to salvation.
So do your best. Do your very best with the little season you have to chop it, dice it, cut it, chip away at it, criticize it... etc. etc.
Do your best now.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 233 by Jazzns, posted 01-04-2007 12:59 AM Jazzns has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 242 by jaywill, posted 01-05-2007 10:56 AM jaywill has not replied
 Message 243 by ringo, posted 01-05-2007 11:18 AM jaywill has not replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 242 of 260 (374679)
01-05-2007 10:56 AM
Reply to: Message 241 by jaywill
01-05-2007 10:44 AM


Re: God Allowed Rape?
I don't know who it was. But someone titled this series of headings "God Allowed Rape?" Someone is looking through the Turkey Feast for bones to choke on.
AS far as Numbers 31 is concerned the facts are:
1.) What God allows is not necessarily what God teaches.
2.) There is no record that God allowed rape in the 31rst chapter.
3.) On the contrary the whole incident was a divine reaction to sexual excess and lust in which He punished 24,000 Jewish men for thier lewdness with the Midianite women.
4.) What the Bible records as having happened is not always what God sets as our example to follow or example of what He teaches anyway.
5.) The vaster majority of the innocent females who did not take part in the mass state sponsored seduction of Israel were mercifully spared and absorbed at Israel's cost into the society.
6.) A seven day purification and cleansing outside the camp is hardly the atmosphere or appropriate time for soldiers of Israel to have an orgy.
Critics need to move on and find another bone to choke on in the midst of this rich meaty feast called the Word of God.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
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ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 243 of 260 (374682)
01-05-2007 11:18 AM
Reply to: Message 241 by jaywill
01-05-2007 10:44 AM


Re: God Allowed Rape?
jaywill writes:
There's no rape in Numbers 31.
There are no trees in the forest.

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This message is a reply to:
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jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 244 of 260 (374688)
01-05-2007 11:51 AM


I don't read from or talk to Ringo.
In Genesis 15 God told Abraham that He would not bring Israel into the promise land of Canaan because the Amorites were not bad enough yet. The iniquity of the Amorites was not yet complete.
God saw the downward slide into degradation. It was however too soon for such a severe retribution to take place.
After the 400 years of the Jew's captivity God was ready to
1.) Give Israel the inheritance and
2.) Judge the Canaanite nations.
Even then He still allowed another 40 years to pass. The Jews were seen wandering from station to station in the wilderness. The Canaanites had another 40 years of seeing what was coming and repent, disperse, stop their evil practices.
I believe that the hardest of the hard were left there to face the conquest of Israel. It is clear that in some cities as in Jericho the people were afraid of the approaching doom. They knew what the God of the Jews was capable of.
I don't like everything I read in the Old Testament. I think we probably do not fathom how low these societies had sunk into immorality.
Even though their judgment was harsh Christ indicated that compared to the towns which turned away the acts and teachings of the Son of God, what some of those societies did would be more tolerable in the last judgment.
I try to encompass the whole Scripture everything in context. God reserved one entire book called Jonah dedicated to the revelation of His reluctance to judge a nation. And that even though His prophet was eager for it to happen.
Christ scolded His disciples John and James for wanting to call fire down from heaven to burn the cities that mocked, jeered, and rejected the ministry of Jesus.
He said He came to save mens' lives and not destroy them. The single worst crime in the entire Bible is man's crucifying Christ. It is funny that here is a place where we have ground to be morally outraged if ever.
Lastly, today we are not called to go back to the Law of Moses or behave in a way as they did in the conquest of Canaan. We are called to the gospel of faith and love in Christ.
It is necessary that we see the awfulness of retribution in order to appreciate that justice fell upon Christ on the cross on behalf of all the world's sinners, that we who believe might receive eternal redemption.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Replies to this message:
 Message 245 by Brian, posted 01-05-2007 12:01 PM jaywill has replied
 Message 247 by ringo, posted 01-05-2007 1:20 PM jaywill has not replied

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 245 of 260 (374691)
01-05-2007 12:01 PM
Reply to: Message 244 by jaywill
01-05-2007 11:51 AM


I think we probably do not fathom how low these societies had sunk into immorality.
Does this include the Israelites?
Brian.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 244 by jaywill, posted 01-05-2007 11:51 AM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
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iceage 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5915 days)
Posts: 1024
From: Pacific Northwest
Joined: 09-08-2003


Message 246 of 260 (374695)
01-05-2007 12:15 PM
Reply to: Message 240 by jaywill
01-05-2007 6:19 AM


More Straining on the Gnat
jaywill writes:
they point out that one chapter in the Bible covers a harsh judgment of a nation by God.
You don't know your bible very well do you. Keep in mind here are talking about a harsh judgment on children (you own source mentioned average age of 5).
Let's open our bible to a new chapter.
Deuteronomy 20:10-14 writes:
As you approach a town to attack it, first offer its people terms for peace. If they accept your terms and open the gates to you, then all the people inside will serve you in forced labor. But if they refuse to make peace and prepare to fight, you must attack the town. When the LORD your God hands it over to you, kill every man in the town. But you may keep for yourselves all the women, children, livestock, and other plunder. You may enjoy the spoils of your enemies that the LORD your God has given you.
Now tell me what does enjoy your plunder mean when that plunder includes women? Now just who is straining at a gnat but swallows a camel.
Further....
Judges 5:30 writes:
They must be dividing the spoils they took: there must be a damsel or two for each man, Spoils of dyed cloth as Sisera's spoil, an ornate shawl or two for me in the spoil.
This will give some background on the normal spoils of war at the time and it is not the strained fairy tale in the apologetic you provided. I am sure they took damsels (little girls?) to feed them, care for them and train them.
In Zechariah 14 it tells how a god will punish Jerusalem by making "all nations" invade and the "women will be ravished". What is the hymn about "all things are in your hands"?
I am sure you know the story of the host offering his own virgin daughter and a concubine to a mob of perverts to protect his guest. This may also further clarify the social norms concerning the raping of women.
Further in Deuteronomy do you know what the penalty was for raping a unbetrothed virgin? Severe. Required a monetary transaction to the father and you 'have' to marry the victim. A twist on victim rights.
There is more but I get tired of writing.
Now earlier you mentioned that Jesus clarified the attitude towards women and sexual sin. No I would say, contradicted not clarified. Unless you take a different meaning to "love your enemies" than I do.
Did you ever get the feeling that maybe the OT might just be some stories and description of a bronze age people and not necessarily the "word of god". I always thought it was blasphemous to attribute this to the creator of the universe but that is what your simplistic spoon-feed religious world view demands.
Edited by iceage, : No reason given.
Edited by iceage, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 240 by jaywill, posted 01-05-2007 6:19 AM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 248 by jaywill, posted 01-05-2007 8:38 PM iceage has replied
 Message 257 by jaywill, posted 01-06-2007 8:41 AM iceage has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 247 of 260 (374719)
01-05-2007 1:20 PM
Reply to: Message 244 by jaywill
01-05-2007 11:51 AM


jaywill writes:
I don't read from or talk to Ringo.
Thanks for mentioning me in every second post though.
Any publicity is good publicity.

Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC

This message is a reply to:
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jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 248 of 260 (374817)
01-05-2007 8:38 PM
Reply to: Message 246 by iceage
01-05-2007 12:15 PM


Re: More Straining on the Gnat
Deuteronomy 20:10-14 writes:
As you approach a town to attack it, first offer its people terms for peace. If they accept your terms and open the gates to you, then all the people inside will serve you in forced labor. But if they refuse to make peace and prepare to fight, you must attack the town. When the LORD your God hands it over to you, kill every man in the town. But you may keep for yourselves all the women, children, livestock, and other plunder. You may enjoy the spoils of your enemies that the LORD your God has given you.
Now tell me what does enjoy your plunder mean when that plunder includes women? Now just who is straining at a gnat but swallows a camel.
How do I know you are not simply reading latter day modern promiscuity into the word “enjoy”? Are you reading the word “rape” in the place of the word “enjoy”?
Go learn what this verse means - (Titus 1:15)
Such “enjoy[ment]” has to be taken in context of all of God’s commandments. The ones you conveniently disregarded should be taken into account to see what parameters were put on this “enjoyment”.
When you go out to fight against your enemies and Jehovah your God delivers them into your hands and you take them captive, and you see a beautiful woman among the captives and desire her and would take her to yourself as a wife; You shall bring her within your house, and she shall shave her head, trim her nails, and take her cloths of captivity away from her. And she shall dwell in your house and mourn her father and mother for a full month.
And afterwards you shall go in unto her and be her HUSBAND, and she shall be a WIFE to you.
And if after a time you do not delight in her, you shall let her go wherever she wishes. But you must not sell her for money; you shall NOT deal with her as a SLAVE, because you have humbled her.
(Deuteronomy 21:10-14)
For one full month you provide for her in your household. For one month you allow her to mourn for her family and have some closure. Then you are to marry the woman. She is not your slave or concubine but rather your wife.
If you found you didn’t really love her she is given freedom in full and not to be marketed away as a slave.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 246 by iceage, posted 01-05-2007 12:15 PM iceage has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 249 by DrJones*, posted 01-05-2007 8:50 PM jaywill has replied
 Message 253 by iceage, posted 01-06-2007 1:34 AM jaywill has replied
 Message 254 by iceage, posted 01-06-2007 1:43 AM jaywill has replied

  
DrJones*
Member
Posts: 2284
From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 08-19-2004
Member Rating: 6.8


Message 249 of 260 (374825)
01-05-2007 8:50 PM
Reply to: Message 248 by jaywill
01-05-2007 8:38 PM


Re: More Straining on the Gnat
Then you are to marry the woman.
What if she doesn't want to marry you?

Just a monkey in a long line of kings.
If "elitist" just means "not the dumbest motherfucker in the room", I'll be an elitist!
*not an actual doctor

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 251 by jaywill, posted 01-05-2007 8:57 PM DrJones* has replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 250 of 260 (374826)
01-05-2007 8:50 PM
Reply to: Message 245 by Brian
01-05-2007 12:01 PM


Does this include the Israelites?
What do you think? Did you read the Old Testament?
Like the little Jewish boy who said, "I know we are God's chosen people. But I wish He'd pick on somebody else."
Didn't He cast them out of the good land and say that they had become worst than the nations? He let others back into the good land and sent Jewish law teachers to teach Gentile nations how to serve Yahweh.
All this is covered in the Old Testament books.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
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jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 251 of 260 (374830)
01-05-2007 8:57 PM
Reply to: Message 249 by DrJones*
01-05-2007 8:50 PM


Re: More Straining on the Gnat
What if she doesn't want to marry you?
Next time I take a trip back in my time machine and am faced with that delemma, I'll let you know.
Seriously, more research into customs and mores of the ANE would have to be consulted.
Anyway, she clearly was not to be a sex slave.
And you don't really have to worry about that now even though I did put the example in the present sounding context.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This message is a reply to:
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DrJones*
Member
Posts: 2284
From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 08-19-2004
Member Rating: 6.8


Message 252 of 260 (374832)
01-05-2007 8:59 PM
Reply to: Message 251 by jaywill
01-05-2007 8:57 PM


Re: More Straining on the Gnat
Anyway, she clearly was not to be a sex slave.
Really? So you're saying that the women forced into this marriage would be allowed to refuse her husband when it comes time to consumate the forced marriage?

Just a monkey in a long line of kings.
If "elitist" just means "not the dumbest motherfucker in the room", I'll be an elitist!
*not an actual doctor

This message is a reply to:
 Message 251 by jaywill, posted 01-05-2007 8:57 PM jaywill has not replied

  
iceage 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5915 days)
Posts: 1024
From: Pacific Northwest
Joined: 09-08-2003


Message 253 of 260 (374870)
01-06-2007 1:34 AM
Reply to: Message 248 by jaywill
01-05-2007 8:38 PM


Re: More Straining on the Gnat
jaywill writes:
How do I know you are not simply reading latter day modern promiscuity into the word “enjoy”? Are you reading the word “rape” in the place of the word “enjoy”?
Jay I don't think anybody can really be that naive? When the OT says “to know” does that mean really good conversation.
For review...
quote:
"But all the young girls who have not known man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves"
"keep for yourselves all the women, children, livestock, and other plunder. You may enjoy the spoils of your enemies"
"They must be dividing the spoils they took: there must be a damsel or two for each man"
Answer me this. What forms of enjoyment do you think was in mind within the given context?
Go learn what this verse means - (Titus 1:15)
You can put away your self-righteousness. This is not my corrupted mind, we are talking about. You know nothing of me so do not assume some righteous superior position, thanks.
such “enjoy[ment]” has to be taken in context of all of God’s commandments. The ones you conveniently disregarded should be taken into account to see what parameters were put on this “enjoyment”.
The NT was centuries into the future when these command were given.
Explain how this all dovetails with - love your enemy, if you really believe that NT philosophy should be considered here.
I gave you plenty of contemporary background scriptures which you have completely and conveniently ignored.
Further your twisted vision of god is commanding burn-to-the-ground genocide (sucklings, toddlers, aged, pregnant women, etc) and you think that raping the enemy was somehow out of context?
If your commander in chief is sending men-of-war to battle with the guidelines to "enjoy the women" do you think they might misunderstand that really you meant take them in, feed them, care for them and train them.
Edited by iceage, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 248 by jaywill, posted 01-05-2007 8:38 PM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
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iceage 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5915 days)
Posts: 1024
From: Pacific Northwest
Joined: 09-08-2003


Message 254 of 260 (374874)
01-06-2007 1:43 AM
Reply to: Message 248 by jaywill
01-05-2007 8:38 PM


Re: More Straining on the Gnat
Regarding Deuteronomy 21:10-14
jaywill writes:
For one full month you provide for her in your household. For one month you allow her to mourn for her family and have some closure. Then you are to marry the woman. She is not your slave or concubine but rather your wife.
One month to find closure over the extremely traumatic life event of having her parents, brothers and sisters killed. Keep in mind the age of the person we are considering. Now try to empathize a little here, can you see yourself in the position of these young girls?
Do you see yourself finding closure and ready to marry the guy who just hacked your little brother within the time span of month.
And if she does not want to marry - what are her options?
jaywill writes:
If you found you didn’t really love her she is given freedom in full and not to be marketed away as a slave.
And this would be fate probably worse than death. What are the prospects of a women in those days, passed the flower of her youth, no family, no property, no rights, no children, nothing.
Edited by iceage, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 248 by jaywill, posted 01-05-2007 8:38 PM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 256 by jaywill, posted 01-06-2007 8:17 AM iceage has not replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 255 of 260 (374887)
01-06-2007 7:56 AM
Reply to: Message 253 by iceage
01-06-2007 1:34 AM


Re: More Straining on the Gnat
Explain how this all dovetails with - love your enemy, if you really believe that NT philosophy should be considered here.
That would have to be done by opening up another discussion. That discussion would be on how the New Testament Christian can apply the Old Testament typology of the conquest of the Good Land of Canaan.
It necessitates a new thread for certain. And it necessitates the time and labor of someone who feels it would be profitable to explain many things.
I'd like to do it. And I could do it. But the audience here is basically hostile and I'm not sure I would be just wasting my time.

This message is a reply to:
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