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Author Topic:   Old Laws Still Valid?
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 137 of 303 (373451)
01-01-2007 3:03 PM
Reply to: Message 136 by iceage
01-01-2007 2:24 PM


Re: utter holiness
How can anyone believe this and then also believe that godly commanded genocide and rape was somehow inside the law and in step with compassion, love and mercy, etc and is sacred is truly unimaginable.
Can you explain why the enemies the Syrians refered to the kings of Israel as merciful kings?
"And his servants said to him, Look now, we have heard that the kings of the house of Israel are merciful kings. We beg you, let us put on sackcloth on our loins and ropes upon our heads, and go out to the kings of Israel. Perhaps he will preserve your life." (1 Kings 20:31)
Why did the Syrians refer to the reputation of the kings of Israel as being "merciful" if the Israelites were only known for rapes and genocide?
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 136 by iceage, posted 01-01-2007 2:24 PM iceage has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 138 by jar, posted 01-01-2007 3:06 PM jaywill has replied
 Message 142 by Coragyps, posted 01-01-2007 3:23 PM jaywill has replied

jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 139 of 303 (373456)
01-01-2007 3:11 PM
Reply to: Message 138 by jar
01-01-2007 3:06 PM


Re: The HeWho factor
Maybe because they knew that the kings of Israel could be merciful kings.
Maybe you have too many conspiracy theories in your imagination. LOL.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 138 by jar, posted 01-01-2007 3:06 PM jar has not replied

jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 140 of 303 (373458)
01-01-2007 3:14 PM


iceage,
What's your answer?
"And his servants said to him, Look now, we have heard that the kings of the house of Israel are merciful kings. We beg you, let us put on sackcloth on our loins and ropes upon our heads, and go out to the kings of Israel. Perhaps he will preserve your life." (1 Kings 20:31)
If all the Israelites were known for and their God was genocide and rape why did the Syrians hear that they were merciful kings?
I'm interested in your answer iceage. I heard from jar already.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 141 of 303 (373459)
01-01-2007 3:18 PM
Reply to: Message 138 by jar
01-01-2007 3:06 PM


Re: The HeWho factor
jar,
He who writes the history gets to spin the story.
So to "spin" thier history the Jews told us of their national leader David's murder and adultery and how much God was angry with them.
With spin like that who needs bad press, eh?
I mean look at all the positive "spin" for Israel in Isaiah, Jeremiah, and Ezekiel. What a continuous rosy picture the Jewish prophets "spun" about their nation, eh?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 138 by jar, posted 01-01-2007 3:06 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 143 by jar, posted 01-01-2007 3:24 PM jaywill has not replied

jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 145 of 303 (373464)
01-01-2007 3:28 PM
Reply to: Message 142 by Coragyps
01-01-2007 3:23 PM


Re: utter holiness
The obvious answer would be that flattery often works better that insults when one is trying to save one's neck.
That may work on the Internet when exchanging posts. But we're talking about real sharp swords here.
I don't think going out in sackcloth and ropes was done to flatter their Israelite captures.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 142 by Coragyps, posted 01-01-2007 3:23 PM Coragyps has not replied

jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 159 of 303 (373502)
01-01-2007 7:48 PM
Reply to: Message 158 by iceage
01-01-2007 7:34 PM


Re: The law is deadly... and Holy
Paul was wrong about other things. For example, Paul believed he was living in the "last days" and was clear about this repeatably.
Why do you say that? Can you prove it?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 158 by iceage, posted 01-01-2007 7:34 PM iceage has not replied

jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 160 of 303 (373503)
01-01-2007 7:54 PM


"And his servants said to him, Look now, we have heard that the kings of the house of Israel are merciful kings. We beg you, let us put on sackcloth on our loins and ropes upon our heads, and go out to the kings of Israel. Perhaps he will preserve your life." (1 Kings 20:31)
Iceage,
I don't think I have received an answer from you yet on why the Israelite kings had a reputation to the Syrians of being merciful.
Has someone else answered on your behalf? If so could you indicate whose answer I should count as your own?
Or if you just choose to ignore my question let me know also.
Thanks
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 162 of 303 (373505)
01-01-2007 8:06 PM
Reply to: Message 158 by iceage
01-01-2007 7:34 PM


Re: The law is deadly... and Holy
Paul believed he was living in the "last days" and was clear about this repeatably.
If the Apostle Paul believed that he was living in the last days then why does he warn Timothy about the "last days" yet to come?
"But know this, that in the last days difficult times will come. For men will be lovers of self, lovers of money, boasters, arrogant, revilers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy ... etc" (See Second Timothy 3:1,2)
If Paul believed he was living in the "last days" then why does he tell his co-worker about the "last days" which "will come"?
Iceage?
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 158 by iceage, posted 01-01-2007 7:34 PM iceage has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 172 by iceage, posted 01-01-2007 9:32 PM jaywill has replied

jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 165 of 303 (373511)
01-01-2007 8:24 PM
Reply to: Message 163 by jar
01-01-2007 8:13 PM


Re: Old laws still valid!
Usually, over time, we realize that morality is a bad source for laws.
So this must mean that your personal morality is a bad source of laws. This must mean that your personal morality that morality is a bad source of laws is ALSO not trustworthy.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 163 by jar, posted 01-01-2007 8:13 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 166 by jar, posted 01-01-2007 8:34 PM jaywill has replied

jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 167 of 303 (373519)
01-01-2007 8:44 PM
Reply to: Message 166 by jar
01-01-2007 8:34 PM


Re: Old laws still valid!
Not even up to platitude standards, but almost Jabberwocky.
Flush. Spray. As usual.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 166 by jar, posted 01-01-2007 8:34 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 168 by Rob, posted 01-01-2007 8:59 PM jaywill has not replied
 Message 169 by jar, posted 01-01-2007 9:02 PM jaywill has not replied

jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 185 of 303 (373626)
01-02-2007 7:40 AM
Reply to: Message 172 by iceage
01-01-2007 9:32 PM


Re: The law is deadly... and Holy
The use of "we" and "these last days" above is hard to reconcile.
On 1 Thess. 4:16-17:
No it isn't. Paul exspressed the oneness of the Body of Christ and the unity of the church as a collective entity repeatedly. The "we" usage only underscores this unity. Why shouldn't he say "we"?
The usage of "we" there is not proof that Paul was was "mistaken". In fact to the same congregation he outlines the events which must take place to signal that Christ's parousia is emminent. Particularly about the coming of the man of sin (the Antichrist). He was not in the middle of such happenings.
He certainly may have wanted the Lord Jesus to return as soon as possible. That is his longing and his desire. That is not his mistake.
He loved the Lord Jesus and of course like all the lovers of Christ longed for Him to come soon.
Concerning Hebrews chapter 1 "these last days" are exactly what they say - "these last days" and not necessarily the days of the second coming of Christ. "[T]hese last days" there refer more to His incarnation in which the living Word of God has become flesh (John 1:14) and therefore God has spoken to us in the Son.
You might have ground to say that from the incarnation of Christ to His second coming is one age. And you might have the ground to say that that age (from His incarnation to His second coming) is a last age. I would not object to that because the writer of Hebrews says:
"But now once at the consummation of the ages He has been manifested for the putting away of sin through the sacrifice of Himself .... So Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time to those who eagerly await Him ..." (See Heb. 9:26-28)
We call this the church age or the age of grace. But the fact that we may biblically call that one consummating age says nothing about the length of it. And it doesn't prove that the writer of Hebrews mistakenly thought Christ would return any day.
Paul and Peter and John all were very responsible and sober in preparing the future generations of Christians. They prepared the disciples for the long term. Paul's coaching of Timothy is with a soberminded realization that he, Paul, would soon not be around and Timothy would have to carry on the ministry.
Peter's tone is exactly the same. He prepared the recipients of his letters for the long term. He told them that with God one day was like a thousand years and a thousand years like one day.
All the apostles in the New Testament, though they longed for Christ to come soon, were not deceived to believe they had assurance that He would come before they expired. And they all responsibly prepared the future disciples. They prepared them for a sojourn in this unbelieving world for as long as it might take for Christ spread the gospel to the world and build His church.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 172 by iceage, posted 01-01-2007 9:32 PM iceage has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 186 by iceage, posted 01-02-2007 7:58 AM jaywill has replied

jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 187 of 303 (373633)
01-02-2007 8:06 AM
Reply to: Message 186 by iceage
01-02-2007 7:58 AM


Re: The law is deadly... and Holy
Now what does "Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air" mean to you?
The whole quote was provided and you ignored that and went on some other discourse that does not pertain.
It does pertain. Now to repeat. Paul is a part of the "we" as a member of the universal church. Paul is a part of the "we" as a consituent of the Body of Christ.
The church universal covers many years, even centries, and many geographic areas.
Paul saying "we" in that passage has no bearing whatsoever on his belief that he would be one of those left remaining or one of those alive at the time or having previously departed. He is only speaking in terms of the corporate unitfied "we" of the universal church.
In Ephesians 4 Paul writes "Until WE all arrive at the oneness of the faith and of the full knowledge of the Son of God, at a full grown man, at the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ" (EPh.4:13 my emphasis)
Don't say that this is not relevant. It is. Here again Paul is speaking about the eventual maturity of the church. She must grow into a full grown man someday. She must mature. Does he know it will happen in his lifetime? No he does not. But he is a part of the collective and aggregate "we".
The same applies in the Thesselonian passage.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 186 by iceage, posted 01-02-2007 7:58 AM iceage has replied

Replies to this message:
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 Message 189 by iceage, posted 01-02-2007 8:41 AM jaywill has replied

jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 188 of 303 (373636)
01-02-2007 8:15 AM
Reply to: Message 187 by jaywill
01-02-2007 8:06 AM


Re: The law is deadly... and Holy
I wrote:
Paul saying "we" in that passage has no bearing whatsoever on his belief that he would be one of those left remaining or one of those alive at the time or having previously departed. He is only speaking in terms of the corporate unitfied "we" of the universal church.
I mean that Paul did not know in which catagory he would be in at the time of the event.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 187 by jaywill, posted 01-02-2007 8:06 AM jaywill has not replied

jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 201 of 303 (373787)
01-02-2007 5:47 PM
Reply to: Message 189 by iceage
01-02-2007 8:41 AM


Re: The law is deadly... and Holy
Maybe the RCC was right the scripture should not be in the hands of the unwashed masses.
No, scripture should not be locked up so that only the clerical class of an unscriptural hierarchy may read God's oracles. Furthermore all believers in Christ are washed in the redemptive blood of Jesus and are not unwashed as you say.
I totally disagree with the idea of going back to the Dark Ages.
Since the literal reading of "we that are alive" explicitly and clearly refers to current generation and not some universal church.
Perhaps you simply don't understand the intimacy of Christian fellowship.
"And I do not ask concerning these only, but concerning those also who believe into Me through their word, that they all may be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us; that the world may believe that You have sent Me." (John 17:21)
"I in them, and You in Me, that they may be perfected into one ..." (17:23a)
"For also in one Spirit we were all baptized into one Body, whether we be Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and were all given to drink of one Spirit." (1 Cor. 12:13)
You simply don't rightly apprehend to universal oneness of Christ's church spanning over many years and many areas on the globe. All the believers are a part of the one corperate "we" for whom the apostles labored.
Why would godly inspired works be written so obtuse?
Do you think everything in the Bible can be comprehended upon first reading one time?
If there are levels of growth and maturity in the natural life accompanied by levels of understanding why would you assume a difference in the spiritual life?
Not everything in the Bible is as simple as "Jesus loves me this I know, for the Bible tells me so."
And I think that you are thinking as perhaps an outsider to the experience of the unity of the Holy Spirit, looking in and judging things according to a worldly way of thinking.
No Paul did not say "they will experience this and they will experience that" as you might expect. As a member of the one Body of Christ he said "we". And he did so in many many places.
Someone taught you "Aha, Paul made a mistake! He erroneously thought Jesus was coming back at any day. And since Paul goofed we need not be too serious about listening to, let alone believing, the New Testament."
I mean isn't that where you're going with this anyway? C'mon, isn't it? I mean something like "The Bible isn't that big a deal. After all the Apostle Paul goofed on the time of the second coming of Christ. Sooooo, relax. We don't have to take these teachings too seriously."
Read First and Second Timothy again. You see an apostle preparing his co-worker for the long distance race. Read Second Thessolonians again. Paul is balancing the Thessalonians from becoming irresponsible because of a giddy expectation that Jesus is coming right around the corner.
In the Second Thessalonian letter Paul is acting to warn the Thessalonians that they should not let the soon appearing of Christ cause them to live sloppily or irresponsibly.
Why? Because the words of Christ still stood. No one knows of the day or the hour of His second coming. Not even Paul. As Christians though we should live as if He could come again at any moment.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 189 by iceage, posted 01-02-2007 8:41 AM iceage has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 202 by jar, posted 01-02-2007 7:57 PM jaywill has replied
 Message 205 by iceage, posted 01-02-2007 9:26 PM jaywill has replied

jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 210 of 303 (373928)
01-03-2007 6:49 AM
Reply to: Message 202 by jar
01-02-2007 7:57 PM


Re: The law is deadly... and Holy
Which might be relevant if Paul had written 1st. & 2nd. Timothy. It's unlikely though that Paul wrote them and far more likely that they were early apologetics and attributed to Paul.
And the Magna Carta was Bullwinkle's Phd thesis.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 202 by jar, posted 01-02-2007 7:57 PM jar has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 212 by sidelined, posted 01-03-2007 7:01 AM jaywill has replied

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