quote:
So your argument that they used him to get rid of "morally defunct" laws fails due to the culture of the time
Follow me here. I do not think that is my argument. I will tell you the walls my personal research and experience has caused me to build over the last 5 years. This is lengthy because I need you to understand the process my mind takes me through and how I arrived where I am!
If Jar were here he might call this trite drivel - like he used to in chat. I assure you filling up the forum with trite drivel is not my intention. I am fairly confident NJ answered part "X" of my question, "Why do christians no longer follow old law."
quote:
(christians) used jesus to get rid of the old laws.
Nor do I is it acceptable to retract that comment? I need you to PM me in private if you have difficulty following here - I will explain.
It is my opinion until 300 years ago 98% of the christian population felt the bible was the error free word of God. They felt he played a direct role in writing this book and stamped it with his seal of approval. They also assumed a clear cut picture of creation was listed in the bible. I have quite a few books on my shelf from 1800-1952 that say the flood is a fact. I've heard in several states until the 1980s the bible was read and 'taught' in public school. I've heard quite a few people tell me it was once believed the earth was the center of the universe. I've heard more people tell me that witches had to be burned and tortured. Can you follow? I've read once a very very famous church father said, "I believe it because it is impossible". Although this reference was to Jesus I will still call upon it here. In high school I am confident I've read numerous examples where puritans or other religious people called upon the scripture to justify their need for slavery. I could call upon thousands of examples I have came across which demonstrate to me christians (98-99%) accepted every word in the bible as true and error free. I am very receptive to being proven wrong.
WHY SHOULDN'T THEY? If a god exists and god is omnipotent , omniscience and as well omnibenolevenant he had to have played a hand(THE HAND). God knew this book was going to exist - he had to. God allowed it to exist. If god does in fact exist this is his autobiography, correct? God clearly interacted with people 2,000 ago - the bible tells me so. People to this degree had an opportunity to interview god. If you can talk with something, interact with it and see it in the flesh, well, this strengthens rapport. I am a recruiter - I make cold calls all day long. I am damn good at what I do. However, I assure you in person I could be 60% better. My point those who were allowed personal interaction with God wrote this book. God knew they were going to write it. God knew what it was going to say. God knew all the changes it would go through from 1500 BCE - 2007 CE. GOD KNEW - to argue this point is to challenge god is it not?
(I touch on this later. If god did not write it and it is just a book of the times how do we know anything in it is true? How do we know which parts are true?)
So, before it was ever written god knew. The majority of the world before 200-300 years ago was 100% convinced this was the absolute truth without any question.
BUT, but, but - the bible contains some vile stuff. The god of the OT was a ruthless, shameless, vengeful being. Worship him, bow down or there was an AXE to be grinded (in your head). Anyone recall the punishment for disobeying any of the 10 commandments (well 9 of them?) - go ahead let us know. Sounds like Beth. I will also site some other atrocities of the bible in closing. One I'd like to consider now is the hardening of the pharos’s heart and the plagues. God is all powerful, all seeing, all knowing and can do anything. He could have done anything, anything. I’ve even seen Christian attempts to justify it. The fact remains he hardened the heart to make everyone suffer he also choose to plague the earth. He killed the fish! He killed the livestock and other living innocent animals. Then what did the brutal beast do? MURDERED EVERY 1st born.
These had nothing to do with morals of 'olden days'. The bible until recently was Gods word. God smiled upon its writing. God knew about its writing. The people who wrote it had gods blessing, interaction and approval. In many cases the bible seems to imply god assisted in the writing - at very least the writers were under this impression. They would know - they had better rapport. I argue if the bible is not a timeless book like the majority of gods followers/readers have thought since it first came into play it looses much of its meaning. Before you think to comment please finish reading. If you feel the bible is just a book of times and the evil is justified because of morals of the day. I think then you agree with me. . . .
Now a days if an author writes lies about a person in their autobiography the person sues. The person demands the work be retracted, changed, stopped or apologized for - RIGHTFULLY SO. Slander or character deformation is bad. . . I do not know god. Nor have I ever know any gods. However, I must assume a god would think the same way. God knew well in advance all the evil which would be justified using the bible (let's not digress I know there is good too - I am not an idiot, stay with me). If god did not like it he should have sued. God did not act.
How could so many people have believed a lie for so long? 89% of the living world, I bet? I know I know band wagon fallacy, you caught me.
Do you understand where I am coming from though?
The bible is free of contradiction or it is not. The bible is error free or it is not. The bible is full of evil (I will prove this in a moment) or it is not. The bible is a book of the times or it is timeless. The bible is a good place for moral values or it is not. The bible is the word of god or it is not. We are talking about god here not an average 'theory'. There is little room for error. The steaks are hot and the stakes are high - are they not?
If you disregard the laws as morals of the day and not timeless laws how do you know Jesus rose from the dead? If you regard the burning bush as 'just a story' how do you know 'Israel' was enslaved in Egypt?
You do not - you can not. God knew, god allowed and it was so! The bible is something or it is nothing.
HOWEVER, Christians are not idiots, right? They recognized much of the violence, hate, vile behavior and down right rottenness in the OT. They needed a way to distance themselves from it. One way is to simply ignore it - never talk about it. Another way is to try to justify it. The problem there is each individual and each denomination has their own spin own way. HOW DO WE KNOW WHICH IS RIGHT?. Or similar to the first example the final way is to ”cherry pick’ verses, sayings and sentences. I think this is called discounting the bad, correct?
There are numerous verses NJ and I will discuss over the next few days which if taken word for word demand the bible not be changed - I think. They demand the law is still 100% effective. However, intelligent christians realized by any human moral standard much of the OT was unacceptable. They needed to find a method in which much of the OT could be wiped out or ignored. Jesus was this way. Jesus was not invented for this purpose. However, he was used for this purpose.
Now taking it to the extreme we have people like Jar (they are the very small minority) saying the bible isn't too important. He recognizes the bible is full of contradictions, evil, impossible things and vile behaviour. He simply dismisses it altogether - what could be safer? The more moderate example like Purple Dawn establishes rules for reading the bible. This part is untrue, this part is true, this part might be true, read about this part with an open mind. . . WHAT sort of BS is that? That is known as demystifying, I think. It recently became very popular because science and technology has demonstrated much of the bible is impossible.
*Back to a point if I may. I think people who wrote the bible were convinced they were writing gods word and it was true. - possibly they were. If this is the case people who established all these rules for reading the bible are in for a special treat, “Gods Wraith”!
** I know, I know they feel it is their faith. The problem is one person is right and the other is wrong. Faith based on this seems to be nothing more than a hopeful dreamy opinion which is often based on the situation or needs of an individual. Faith is not and it must not be off limits from attack. Faith is not above or beyond reason.
Is was once believed by all god lived in the sky. Until man traveled above the clouds the theist used the argument was, "PROVE IT! YOU CANT!". It was once believed that hell was below our feet! The argument was prove it! You can't! It was once believed the earth was the center of the universe. You know the argument? Well, we have proved it so religion retreats into the veil of faith. We(non theists) have demonstrated much of the bible if taken literal is drivel, silly and childish. So, theists dismiss, invent methods to read it properly, ignore parts of it or jump through hoops to justify it. The problem is these hoops and methods are never static. They depend upon the individual and the mood of the pastor at that moment.
44% of Christians in this country still accept the bible as the error free word of God. I say with great confidence they have not read it. The others have read it. They understand much of the bible is too far fetched to be true. So, just like JC was used to rid themselves of laws which were too far fetched special methods of reading the bible must be introduced.
I wonder why that is really necessary? For the better part of human existence (according to many theists) Christians simply accepted the bible as true. If there is a God why shouldn't the?
If this law here is no longer to be followed how about this law? If this is a parable here left up to individual interpretation how about this one? If this was a BAD mistranslation how about this? If god is real. . . GOD IS GOD. His law is to be followed and obeyed, period - like it or not. EVERY LAW to the T.
Christians go through insane lengths to attempt to rescue their book from the bible. More often than not they use the saying, "you can't disprove it, it must be true". Much has been disproved, this is true. Intelligent theists must now admit much of the bible is a story. Theists everywhere must admit god does not dwell in the clouds.
So, in closing I thank NJ for his response. I will review it and reply to it. However, can ya'll see my point? Why I am confused or made a smidgen mad?
Do you see my point? This is a very big reason I am troubled by religion. There are 500 demonitions of Christianity. All with their own spin and take. Come-on give me a break. Everyone has their own personal method of attempting to justify the filth of the bible. If someone can explain this to me I may be receptive to lowering a wall or two atheism has created. For your reading pleasure from evilbible.com some of the filth:
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Deuteronomy 3:1-7, 1 Kings 18:36-40, Numbers 5:11-21, 2 Kings 15:16, Leviticus 20:9, 2 Kings 6:28-29, Leviticus 26:30
Genesis 22:9 & 10 “And they came to the place which God had told him of and Abraham built an altar there, and laid the wood in order, and bound Isaac his son, and laid him on the altar upon the wood. And Abraham stretched forth his hand, and took the knife to slay his son.” It matters not that god let Abraham get out of murdering Isaac. To put a knife up to your son’s throat is child abuse.
I Kings 3:24-25 “And the king said, Bring me a sword. And they brought a sword before the king. And the king said, Divide the living child in two, and give half to the one, and half to the other." This test was of course given to see who the real mother of the child was. Christians view this king as a wise man.
Proverbs 13:24, 19:18, 22:15, 23:13-14 & 29:15 God commands repeatedly that you beat your children.
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In the book of Lev and EX examples of this nature are far too common. Shall I present them so you can counter them and make excuses. They are what they are! Sexism, racism, violent, immoral, evil, rude and spiteful
Please keep any response to this message in line with the OP.
AdminPD
Edited by AdminPD, : Warning
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