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Author Topic:   Old Laws Still Valid?
John 10:10
Member (Idle past 2996 days)
Posts: 766
From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA
Joined: 02-01-2006


Message 256 of 303 (374650)
01-05-2007 8:38 AM
Reply to: Message 252 by anastasia
01-04-2007 5:55 PM


Re: Still more off topic irrelevancies from John10:10
You quoted Rom 2:14, but did not qoute the rest of this message.
14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves,
15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them,
16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.
Jesus will judge the secrets of unbeliever's hearts, both word and deed. If one can live a perfect life, then their thoughts will defend them on this judgment day. If one cannot live a perfect life, then their thoughts will accuse them on this judgment day.
The Bible certainly declares there will degrees of rewards for those who are Jesus' "born again" children. I may be wrong about degrees of punishment for unbelievers who are not Jesus' children, but I believe the Hitlers, Saddams & Stalins of this world will receive greater punishment in the hereafter than those who reject the Lord's saving grace, but live relitively good lives and perform good deeds to their fellow man.
Yes, if the "un-born again" can perfectly keep the righteousness of the Law, then they will be counted as "born again." How well have you succeeded so far? For me, I need a Savoir.
Edited by John 10:10, : Added comment

The evil one comes to steal, kill and destroy; but I Jesus have come that you might have eternal Life and have eternal Life more abundantly - John 10:10

This message is a reply to:
 Message 252 by anastasia, posted 01-04-2007 5:55 PM anastasia has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 257 by ringo, posted 01-05-2007 10:38 AM John 10:10 has replied
 Message 265 by jaywill, posted 01-07-2007 3:21 AM John 10:10 has not replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 257 of 303 (374673)
01-05-2007 10:38 AM
Reply to: Message 256 by John 10:10
01-05-2007 8:38 AM


Re: Still more off topic irrelevancies from John10:10
John 10:10 writes:
If one can live a perfect life, then their thoughts will defend them on this judgment day. If one cannot live a perfect life, then their thoughts will accuse them on this judgment day.
Even your own quote says nothing about a "perfect life".

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 256 by John 10:10, posted 01-05-2007 8:38 AM John 10:10 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 258 by John 10:10, posted 01-05-2007 11:51 AM ringo has replied

John 10:10
Member (Idle past 2996 days)
Posts: 766
From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA
Joined: 02-01-2006


Message 258 of 303 (374686)
01-05-2007 11:51 AM
Reply to: Message 257 by ringo
01-05-2007 10:38 AM


Re: Still more off topic irrelevancies from John10:10
Mt 5:48
"Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect."

The evil one comes to steal, kill and destroy; but I Jesus have come that you might have eternal Life and have eternal Life more abundantly - John 10:10

This message is a reply to:
 Message 257 by ringo, posted 01-05-2007 10:38 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 259 by ringo, posted 01-05-2007 12:16 PM John 10:10 has replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 259 of 303 (374698)
01-05-2007 12:16 PM
Reply to: Message 258 by John 10:10
01-05-2007 11:51 AM


Re: Still more off topic irrelevancies from John10:10
John 10:10 writes:
Mt 5:48"Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect."
Context, me boy, context.
Back up a few verses:
quote:
Mat 5:43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbor, and hate thine enemy.
Mat 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
Mat 5:45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
Mat 5:46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
Mat 5:47 And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?
Mat 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
We are told to be perfect in the context of loving our neighbour. As I have been saying all along, Jesus told us to love our neighbour AS we love ourselves. That is the standard of perfection.
God loves all of us equally. We are told to love all of us equally too.
Are you ever going to address the topic? Are you ever going to explain why Jesus said that the whole of the law hangs on loving God and loving thy neighbour? Are you ever going to explain how eating shrimp effects my love for my neighbour?

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 258 by John 10:10, posted 01-05-2007 11:51 AM John 10:10 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 260 by John 10:10, posted 01-06-2007 2:11 PM ringo has replied

John 10:10
Member (Idle past 2996 days)
Posts: 766
From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA
Joined: 02-01-2006


Message 260 of 303 (374951)
01-06-2007 2:11 PM
Reply to: Message 259 by ringo
01-05-2007 12:16 PM


Re: Still more off topic irrelevancies from John10:10
Are you forever going to bound to the letter of the Old Covenant, and miss the New Covenant?
2 Cor 3:
5 Not that we are adequate in ourselves to consider anything as coming from ourselves, but our adequacy is from God,
6 who also made us adequate as servants of a new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
If you miss the New Covenant that is in the Person of the Lord Jesus Christ, then you miss it all, no matter how much to try to love your neighbor.

The evil one comes to steal, kill and destroy; but I Jesus have come that you might have eternal Life and have eternal Life more abundantly - John 10:10

This message is a reply to:
 Message 259 by ringo, posted 01-05-2007 12:16 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 261 by ringo, posted 01-06-2007 2:24 PM John 10:10 has replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 261 of 303 (374956)
01-06-2007 2:24 PM
Reply to: Message 260 by John 10:10
01-06-2007 2:11 PM


Re: Still more off topic irrelevancies from John10:10
John 10:10 writes:
If you miss the New Covenant that is in the Person of the Lord Jesus Christ, then you miss it all, no matter how much to try to love your neighbor.
What I am missing is any sign of any content whatsoever in your posts that addresses either my posts or the topic in general.
You blather on about the "New Covenant" but you ignore the question of the topic: How does the New Covenant relate to the Old?
Are the Old Covenant laws (like the prohibition on eating shellfish) still applicable or not? Just answer the question.
If they Old Covenant laws are still applicable, how do they relate to the New Covenant? Just answer the question.
I have shown what Jesus Himself said about the New Covenant: the whole of the law hangs on loving thy neighbour as thyself. If the Old Covenant laws are still valid, how do they hang on loving thy neighbour as thyself? Just answer the question.

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 260 by John 10:10, posted 01-06-2007 2:11 PM John 10:10 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 262 by arachnophilia, posted 01-06-2007 2:30 PM ringo has replied
 Message 263 by John 10:10, posted 01-06-2007 8:46 PM ringo has replied

arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1344 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 262 of 303 (374959)
01-06-2007 2:30 PM
Reply to: Message 261 by ringo
01-06-2007 2:24 PM


Re: Still more off topic irrelevancies from John10:10
If the Old Covenant laws are still valid, how do they hang on loving thy neighbour as thyself? Just answer the question.
oo oo i got dibs if he doesn't know.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 261 by ringo, posted 01-06-2007 2:24 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 268 by ringo, posted 01-07-2007 11:01 AM arachnophilia has replied

John 10:10
Member (Idle past 2996 days)
Posts: 766
From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA
Joined: 02-01-2006


Message 263 of 303 (375019)
01-06-2007 8:46 PM
Reply to: Message 261 by ringo
01-06-2007 2:24 PM


Re: Still more off topic irrelevancies from John10:10
Since you consider the New Covenant "blather," you must also consider Jesus and His words blather as well. Jesus said this in Luke 22:20,
And in the same way He took the cup after they had eaten, saying, "This cup which is poured out for you is the new covenant in My blood.
For those who have entered into the New Covenant relationship with Jesus that is in His blood, the Old Covenant laws are wonderful for converting the soul (Psalms 19:7-14), but they are not binding.
Gal 5:22-23, "But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law."
Now have I spoken plainly to you?
Edited by John 10:10, : No reason given.

The evil one comes to steal, kill and destroy; but I Jesus have come that you might have eternal Life and have eternal Life more abundantly - John 10:10

This message is a reply to:
 Message 261 by ringo, posted 01-06-2007 2:24 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 264 by ringo, posted 01-06-2007 9:51 PM John 10:10 has replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 264 of 303 (375033)
01-06-2007 9:51 PM
Reply to: Message 263 by John 10:10
01-06-2007 8:46 PM


Re: Still more off topic irrelevancies from John10:10
John 10:10 writes:
For those who have entered into the New Covenant relationship with Jesus that is in His blood....
The problem with that is that Jesus wasn't talking to "those who have entered into the New Covenant":
quote:
Mat 22:34 But when the Pharisees had heard that he had put the Sadducees to silence, they were gathered together.
Mat 22:35 Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked him a question, tempting him, and saying,
Mat 22:36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
Mat 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
Mat 22:38 This is the first and great commandment.
Mat 22:39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.
Mat 22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
He was talking to the Pharisees.
The New Covenant is not germane to the issue. Jesus' interpretation of the Old Covenant was that "thou (Pharisee) shalt love thy neighbour as thyself".
Notice that the lawyer didn't disagree with Him. Jesus' interpretation of the law was no real change from the Jewish interpretation of the law.
... the Old Covenant laws are wonderful for converting the soul (Psalms 19:7-14), but they are not binding.
So, in what way is not eating shellfish "wonderful for converting the soul"?
And how does not eating shellfish relate to loving thy neighbor?

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 263 by John 10:10, posted 01-06-2007 8:46 PM John 10:10 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 266 by John 10:10, posted 01-07-2007 8:27 AM ringo has replied

jaywill
Member (Idle past 1942 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 265 of 303 (375077)
01-07-2007 3:21 AM
Reply to: Message 256 by John 10:10
01-05-2007 8:38 AM


Degrees of Reward and Discipline
The Bible certainly declares there will degrees of rewards for those who are Jesus' "born again" children.
There will be also degrees of punishment or discipline to believers.
Many Bible teachers recognize degrees of rewards to those eternally redeemed. But for some reason they do not also see the degrees of discipline to believers during the millennial kingdom after the second coming of Christ.
Degrees of greatness or reward may be illustrated by this passage:
"Therefore whoever annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be the least in the kingdom of the heavens; but whoever practices and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of the heavens." (Matt. 5:19)
Obviously, practicing and teaching the commandments of Christ will result in a higher degree of honor in the kingdom of the heavens then annulling His teaching.
Since only believers in Christ comprise the kingdom of the heavens this is just one example of many showing degrees of reward in that kingdom.
Now for degrees of punishment in the kingdom we can site one clear example:
"And that slave who knew his master's will and did not prepare or do according to his will, will receive many lashes;
But he who did not know, yet did things worthy of stripes, will receive few lashes. But to every one to whom much has been given, much will be required from him; and to whom much has been committed, they will ask of him all the more." (Luke 12:37,38)
The context of this conclusion is clearly the watching and faithfulness of the servants of Christ for His second coming (Luke 12:35-48).
If we notice degrees of reward we have to also notice degrees of punishment. The slave who knew better what her master expected and did not prepare will receive "many lashes". Lashes here are lashes of discipline of course. And conversely the slave who was less informed as to what her master expected and acted unworthily will receive a less punishment in the form of "few lashes"
Unbelievers are not the slave of the Lord Christ. So the passage can only be talking aboout His disciples. To whom much has been revealed much will be expected from him in the second coming of Christ. This of course shows that there are different levels of consciousness of the what Christ wants from those who were saved. That could be because of the kind of shepherding and teaching they were under.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 256 by John 10:10, posted 01-05-2007 8:38 AM John 10:10 has not replied

John 10:10
Member (Idle past 2996 days)
Posts: 766
From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA
Joined: 02-01-2006


Message 266 of 303 (375093)
01-07-2007 8:27 AM
Reply to: Message 264 by ringo
01-06-2007 9:51 PM


Re: Still more off topic irrelevancies from John10:10
Yes, I perceive I must be talking to a Pharisee. They rejected Jesus' message just as you reject Jesus' message.
For those who enter into the New Covenant relationship with Jesus, He gives a new commandment to us in John 13:34-35,
"A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you, that you also love one another. By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another."
If you want to know how much Jesus loves you, then look at His hands and feet the next time you see Him.

The evil one comes to steal, kill and destroy; but I Jesus have come that you might have eternal Life and have eternal Life more abundantly - John 10:10

This message is a reply to:
 Message 264 by ringo, posted 01-06-2007 9:51 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 267 by ringo, posted 01-07-2007 10:58 AM John 10:10 has replied
 Message 269 by ReverendDG, posted 01-07-2007 2:32 PM John 10:10 has replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 267 of 303 (375100)
01-07-2007 10:58 AM
Reply to: Message 266 by John 10:10
01-07-2007 8:27 AM


Re: Still more off topic irrelevancies from John10:10
John 10:10 writes:
Yes, I perceive I must be talking to a Pharisee. They rejected Jesus' message just as you reject Jesus' message.
You keep parroting the false accusation that I "reject" Jesus' message - but you are the one who has been ignoring Jesus' message in this thread.
I have quoted several times what Jesus said about the law: that the whole of the law hangs on loving God and loving they neighbor as thyself. You don't seem to have anything to say about that.
For those who enter into the New Covenant relationship with Jesus, He gives a new commandment to us in John 13:34-35
As I said, Jesus' statement about the law was not for those in the New Covenant, it was for those in the Old Covenant. Loving thy neighbor as thyself is the common bond between the old and the new.
You have agreed that some of the old laws are no longer "binding". Is that going to be the only substantial statement you make in this thread?

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 266 by John 10:10, posted 01-07-2007 8:27 AM John 10:10 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 271 by John 10:10, posted 01-07-2007 5:41 PM ringo has replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 268 of 303 (375101)
01-07-2007 11:01 AM
Reply to: Message 262 by arachnophilia
01-06-2007 2:30 PM


Re: Still more off topic irrelevancies from John10:10
arachnophilia writes:
If the Old Covenant laws are still valid, how do they hang on loving thy neighbour as thyself? Just answer the question.
oo oo i got dibs if he doesn't know.
Since John apparently has no interest in the thread topic, I (for one) would be interested in your answer.

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 262 by arachnophilia, posted 01-06-2007 2:30 PM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 270 by ReverendDG, posted 01-07-2007 2:36 PM ringo has not replied
 Message 279 by arachnophilia, posted 01-07-2007 6:59 PM ringo has not replied

ReverendDG
Member (Idle past 4111 days)
Posts: 1119
From: Topeka,kansas
Joined: 06-06-2005


Message 269 of 303 (375126)
01-07-2007 2:32 PM
Reply to: Message 266 by John 10:10
01-07-2007 8:27 AM


Re: Still more off topic irrelevancies from John10:10
Yes, I perceive I must be talking to a Pharisee. They rejected Jesus' message just as you reject Jesus' message.
uh huh, this seems less than christian to me to judge someone for disagreeing with you
For those who enter into the New Covenant relationship with Jesus, He gives a new commandment to us in John 13:34-35,
theres no new covenant, theres just a restatement of the old
"A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you, that you also love one another. By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another."
do you bother reading what you post? it says he gives a commandment to love others as ourselves, which is just a restatement of the torah and talmud
If you want to know how much Jesus loves you, then look at His hands and feet the next time you see Him.
i'd rather read and understand what he said, i'm not sure you really do

This message is a reply to:
 Message 266 by John 10:10, posted 01-07-2007 8:27 AM John 10:10 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 272 by John 10:10, posted 01-07-2007 5:46 PM ReverendDG has replied

ReverendDG
Member (Idle past 4111 days)
Posts: 1119
From: Topeka,kansas
Joined: 06-06-2005


Message 270 of 303 (375127)
01-07-2007 2:36 PM
Reply to: Message 268 by ringo
01-07-2007 11:01 AM


Re: Still more off topic irrelevancies from John10:10
for christians it seems some of them do, like all the sexual laws and the blasphemy ones and the big 10, but it seems the murder ones don't have meaning since some of the crazier ones have no problem killing people who disagree with them
but the old laws don't really matter i guess since they have to do with getting closer to god in this life and not in the next really.
sheol is just there after all.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 268 by ringo, posted 01-07-2007 11:01 AM ringo has not replied

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