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Junior Member (Idle past 6056 days) Posts: 21 From: Brownsburg, Indiana, USA Joined: |
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Author | Topic: Old Laws Still Valid? | |||||||||||||||||||||||
truthlover Member (Idle past 4087 days) Posts: 1548 From: Selmer, TN Joined: |
BTW - Please give reference to the predictions you mentioned. Jer 31:31-34; Ez 36:26,27
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arachnophilia Member (Idle past 1371 days) Posts: 9069 From: god's waiting room Joined: |
Would I be amiss in saying that you have to ask these questions, because Romans 7 is not something that you believe? The whole subject of whether the Law can be kept is at issue here, I think. Paul's response to Romans 7 is "What the Law could not do, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, as a sin offering, to condemn sin in the flesh" (Rom 8:3,4). other parts of the bible depict people who are justified by the law. and even christian theology holds that christ himself was perfect. is that not an example we should follow? faced with paul saying no man can be perfect, and the other parts of the bible that say we can (and even tells us how), and parts that describe god's graces, how can we accept both? clearly they are contradictory. the reason i do not chose pauline christianity here is that it seems to be rather clearly and profoundly misrepresenting the law. the law is not a burden that we carry under punishment. the law is not something that charges us as being sinful. if one actually, i dunno, reads all of that boring stuff in exodus and leviticus, it's quite plainly obvious that most of the law is a system for atoning for sins. the law itself justifies man with god -- that's what it's for. edit: or rather, i don't think paul HIMSELF is neccessarily misrepresenting the law. the verse above clearly says the law is failed system for atonement. i might even agree to that statement, but this is not the way most christians understand the theological basis for their religion.
What's blowing up is people & society. Christ has a better way for people to live: where conflict between teenagers and their parents is not the norm; eh eh not so fast there!
quote: sounds like jesus thinks christianity will a source of great conflict in families. and in my experience, he's absolutely right.
where every third death among young people is not suicide; i dunno, i'd be willing to bet that the christian guilt complex is a leading factor in suicide cases for teenagers. but hey, that's still better than martyrdom, which christ goes on to talk about in the verses after the one above. Edited by arachnophilia, : No reason given.
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arachnophilia Member (Idle past 1371 days) Posts: 9069 From: god's waiting room Joined: |
you'll find that many christian faiths are subconciously scared of the bible. there is a lot of stuff in it that is just plain difficult to rectify, especially with their particular subset of beliefs. many people lose their faith entirely when faced with the realities of the text. This is an irony which I have mentioned elsewhere, one which if there is a devil probably really makes him laugh. sometimes i suspect that satan himself had more hand in writing the bible than god.
I hope I do not! I admit I would despair without faith, but let's just say that all men would despair without hope of some kind, and what they are hoping for varies; from success, to world peace, to eternal life, to love, to gay marriage. I dont so much need religion to answer questions about the life-here-after, as to give joy to my present day. Maybe that is a crutch, but a crutch is an implement to achieve a goal, and my faith is the goal itself...I don't know. no, i think that's a reasonably healthy attitude. strangely, i kind of feel the same way. i don't care much for thoughts of the afterlife... actually, i'm kind of scared by the prospects of eternity. i don't want to live for ever. anyways, this stuff's pretty off-topic now, but it's been interesting.
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arachnophilia Member (Idle past 1371 days) Posts: 9069 From: god's waiting room Joined: |
It can be hard, being stereotyped or identifying with something you aren't. i don't really mind being identified as jewish, it's just kind of odd.
I'm still thinking on how Luther's doctrine of 'justification by faith' works, but only because it is a recurring sticking point when I talk to other christians. i think faith and works must go hand-in-hand, so it's got to be a point of emphasis thing. as told by most christians, it doesn't even make sense. our faith saves us, regardless of our deeds -- but when someone does something truly abhorent in the name of christ, they proclaim them to be "not true christians." clearly, the deeds must matter somehow. outside of christianity, "faith" is a word that is used to describe fidelity, such as in marriages. actions matter there -- one is not faithful to their wife if he sleeps around. perhaps we should think about faith as inclusive of actions.
The life of Jesus includes his death, He would not have been man if He had not died, and becoming man was the sacrifice IMO. yes.
If Jesus was a minor prophet His life was effectual enough to tell us a message from God. If he were a martyr who died for a cause His death would add further emphasis to His message. If He rose from the dead, well, death would have a whole new meaning. there are instances of the dead rising earlier in the bible, though. the most prominent one at jesus's own command. also, it's not much of a sacrifice if you get it back, is it? just saying.
But...if Jesus is God, His death gives us hope; it becomes symbolic of sin and suffering, personal and world-wide, and the promise of delivery from it. A man's death doesn't do this. it just seems kind of odd to me. how does god's death give us hope? shouldn't we have hope because god is alive? in a rather prominent volumne of the torah, god delivers an entire nation, en masse, from suffering, according to his promise -- he didn't have to die to do that. why should god need to kill himself to satisfy himself, thus saving us from himself? it just... it doesn't make sense to me anymore.
I know that is more like preaching, and nothing new to you. It is the fundemental though, of all christianity. Thinking of Jesus in terms of a prophet alone doesn't answer the question rightly. i can't find a better term for myself than "christian" and i'm not entirely sure what i believe anymore. perhaps i am one of those people that faced with the bible has lost their faith, and i am simply in denial. i'm not atheist; i still believe in god. and i believe in this god. but why can't someone who follows the teachings of one called "christ" be called "christian?" it's not my fault the fundamental precepts of what has become modern christianity are a little more dogmatic than this.
Well, the prophets didn't 'come' in the way Jesus did. They were born of men and used by God. jesus walks around calling himself "son of man." that literally means "born of men," and is a prophetic title. and in all fairness, it doesn't seem to be a big point in the gospels. it's told in luke and matthew, but mark and john simply ignore it or fail to include it. and matthew takes a verse from isaiah horrendously out of context and mistranslates the important word...
I said that if the prophets had not come and stirred up faith every now and again, it may have withered away so much so that no one would have expected or sought a messiah; the Jewish laws of passover and such were so vital in preserving the remembrance of God's promise. well, as a side note, when people say "the law and the prophets" they are usually referring to two sections of the hebrew bible (which go by those names, torah and nevi'im). but if one reads the messianic prophecies, many seem to have little to do with jesus. most read a lot like, well, what revelation says will happen in the second coming of christ. that's the messiah the prophets seem to be predicting. jesus himself, on the other hand, largely seems to be trying to provide focus and clarity to judaism at the time. revitalize it with purpose and intent, over letter and loophole. anyways, merry christmas!
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anastasia Member (Idle past 5980 days) Posts: 1857 From: Bucks County, PA Joined: |
arach writes: anyways, merry christmas! Christos Razdajetsja! I have not seen you around awhile, but nice to have you always. Since it is Christmas I will hold off writing. I just got a program with the Bible in Hebrew and Greek, so hopefully it will be interesting.
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Origen Member (Idle past 6319 days) Posts: 52 Joined: |
This is a topic that takes a considerable amount of Biblical knowledge to understand. The reason being is that there has been so much confusion spread about this topic.
Jesus did not called the law evil or deny the prophets. Jesus was there when the law was given to Moses on Mt.Sinai and thus is the reason for the law in the first place. The law was given to Israel so that they would keep themselves holy in the eyes of the LORD and be pure enough to fulfill the prophecy of Gen.3:15 that first tells us that the Messiah would be born of a woman. Well, this woman cannot be a whore and prostitution was a violation of the law of Israel and thus the punishment was death to those who had sex before marriage. The reason for this is that God had to be the Father of the manifestation of what would be God in the flesh--Jesus Christ/Yeshua Messiah. The law was there to preserve the nation that would carry the seed of the Messiah. Jesus came and fulfilled this mission and now we are no longer condemned by the law because Jesus become the curse for our sins. We are saved by our faith, and by this faith we naturally grow in the fruits of the spirit and works come natural; but faith is the seal of salvation sense the Holy Spirit is the sealer(Eph.1:13). The Holy Spirit is the teacher and instructor. The law is still holy, but it no longer has the power to condemn us if we walk in the faith of Christ. The New Testament covers this issue in greater depth and most people can understand Paul (for the exception of Seventh Day Adventists).
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John 10:10 Member (Idle past 3023 days) Posts: 766 From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA Joined: |
Psalma 19,
7 The law of the LORD is perfect, restoring the soul; The testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple.8 The precepts of the LORD are right, rejoicing the heart; The commandment of the LORD is pure, enlightening the eyes. 9 The fear of the LORD is clean, enduring forever; The judgments of the LORD are true; they are righteous altogether. The ultimate goal during our days of time is for the Lord to write His law upon our hearts through the new birth (Eze 36:26-27, John 3:3-7). In eternity when the Lord gives us our resurrection bodies, we will leave behind all our imprefections and enjoy Him forever. Blessings The evil one comes to steal, kill and destroy; but I Jesus have come that you might have eternal Life and have eternal Life more abundantly - John 10:10
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jar Member (Idle past 422 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
What in the world does any of that stuff have to do with the thread or topic?
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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John 10:10 Member (Idle past 3023 days) Posts: 766 From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA Joined: |
Maybe you just don't get it?
Since God's laws are perfect, His laws are still valid, no matter whether they are old or new? Now do you get it? The evil one comes to steal, kill and destroy; but I Jesus have come that you might have eternal Life and have eternal Life more abundantly - John 10:10
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jar Member (Idle past 422 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Since God's laws are perfect, His laws are still valid, no matter whether they are old or new? So stoning folk that work on the Sabbath is okay. Tell me, can I just do it on my own or should I call all the neighbors over? Should we have a BBQ at the event and if so, who should pay for it? Our church recently held a football game and during half time the Priest held a service. Many of the people taking communion, including the Priest were unclean since they handled the football. What actions should we take? Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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John 10:10 Member (Idle past 3023 days) Posts: 766 From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA Joined: |
Maybe you should start with this one and work your way into the others.
Deut 6:5 "You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your might." Then you should be able to handle this one: Col 2:16-17 "Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day-- things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ." To whom much is given, much is required. God required much more from His people in the OT in regards to honoring the Sabbath day. The Israelites themselves agreed to these commandments from God and vowed to keep them. God still takes it very seriously when we make vows to God and agree to obey His commandments. It's much better to allow God to write His laws on our hearts so that we do His will by nature rather than by duty. Edited by John 10:10, : added clarification The evil one comes to steal, kill and destroy; but I Jesus have come that you might have eternal Life and have eternal Life more abundantly - John 10:10
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jar Member (Idle past 422 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Nice jabberwocky but you did not answer any of my questions.
One problem is that all too often Christians simply spout platitudes. Unfortunately, that also means they stop thinking at that point and don't even realize that the platitude is simply spin with no real meaning. Thus we get stuff like "God's Law is perfect", or "It's much better to allow God to write His laws on our hearts so that we do His will by nature rather than by duty." What the hell does that mean? Write Laws on ones heart? Better to do His will by nature rather than duty? Those are just buzz phrases, designed to sound important but really having no meaning whatsoever other than allowing someone to think they have come across an answer. Edited by jar, : an Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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John 10:10 Member (Idle past 3023 days) Posts: 766 From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA Joined: |
Maybe if you were "born again" as Jesus declared in John 3:3-7, you would know what it means to allow God to write His laws upon your heart (Heb 8:10 buzz phrase).
"FOR THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD: I WILL PUT MY LAWS INTO THEIR MINDS, AND I WILL WRITE THEM ON THEIR HEARTS. AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD, AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE." As for God's law being perfect, these are God's words, not mine (Psalms 19:7). The evil one comes to steal, kill and destroy; but I Jesus have come that you might have eternal Life and have eternal Life more abundantly - John 10:10
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jar Member (Idle past 422 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Maybe if you were "born again" as Jesus declared in John 3:3-7, you would know what it means to allow God to write His laws upon your heart (Heb 8:10 buzz phrase). Yet more platitudes designed to stop thinking. Now you proclaim that I am not "Born Again". Another jabberwocky. That is what is so wrong with so much of Christianity, all that exists is some shell of platitudes with no substance, no reason, no value, no worth. Instead of actually answering questions, all you and so many Christians seem able to do is to retreat into the realm of glib catch phrases and quotemining. It is as though a requirement of Christianity was to check the brains at the door. Christianity is NOT the Bible. It is not quotemining. It is not the glib parody that is the Hallmark of the Televangelist. The Devil quotes scripture. Christianity is action, doing. Christianity is helping someone reach the package on the high shelf. Christianity is kneeling down to talk to kids so you are at their eye level. Christianity is a smile and a wave when the man picks up the trash. Christianity is opening doors for folk and helping unload their shopping cart and taking the shopping carts back to the collection area. Christianity is trying to do what is right, trying not to do what is wrong, honestly looking at your performance and when you fail, admitting it and trying to do better next time. Christianity is NOT words, it is doing. Edited by jar, : more appalin spallin Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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John 10:10 Member (Idle past 3023 days) Posts: 766 From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA Joined: |
If you are "born again" as Jesus declares in John 3:3-7, you would not be offended that I brought up the subject. Since you seem to be offended, the shoe seems to fit.
You are right. Christianity is not the Bible, but it is Christ living within the lives of His "born again" children - "Christ in you, the hope of glory" (Col 1:27). Christianity is action, doing. Let us walk in the good works God has prepared for us. Eph 2:8-10 "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them." The evil one comes to steal, kill and destroy; but I Jesus have come that you might have eternal Life and have eternal Life more abundantly - John 10:10
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