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Author Topic:   Biblical Translation--Eden, 2
Dawn Bertot
Member (Idle past 108 days)
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


Message 271 of 315 (463146)
04-12-2008 3:05 PM
Reply to: Message 270 by autumnman
04-12-2008 3:01 PM


Re: Biblical Heb. Transliteration Convention
With any luck I'll receive a "Reply Notification" when you reply to this response.
I {perhaps, we} are right where you left us. I am more than ready to continue with Gen. 2:21 and the "Deep Sleep."
I'll wait for your reply.
that is great, I will going to work but I have printed off the last two pages so I can catch up. proceed with your argumrnt and I am sure the others will jump in.
D Bertot

This message is a reply to:
 Message 270 by autumnman, posted 04-12-2008 3:01 PM autumnman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 272 by autumnman, posted 04-12-2008 10:11 PM Dawn Bertot has replied

autumnman
Member (Idle past 5038 days)
Posts: 621
From: Colorado
Joined: 02-24-2008


Message 272 of 315 (463192)
04-12-2008 10:11 PM
Reply to: Message 271 by Dawn Bertot
04-12-2008 3:05 PM


Re: Biblical Heb. Transliteration Convention
bertot: I am still not receiving any "Reply Notifications." You might try emailing me, and let me know you are on line.
Deep Sleep
Gen. 2:21 begins with two extremely important clauses: 1). God causes a thardemah=deep sleep to fall upon the human archetype, & 2). And it {the human archetype} yashan=sleeps.
It is my contention that this “deep sleep” or “ethereal realm” continues until God makes garments of “skin” for the two human archetypes in Gen. 3:21.
The kind of “deep sleep” to which the Hebrew feminine noun thardemah refers is most often brought about by God”Gen 15:12 when God speaks to Abram; 1st Samuel 26:12, a deep sleep from yhwh; Job 4:13 thoughts from visions...when deep sleep falls on mortals; & 33:15 In a dream, in a visions...when deep sleep falls on mortals.
This thardemah=deep sleep which God causes to fall upon the human archetype in Gen. 2:21 is one of thoughts, visions, and dreams. Within the Ethereal Realm of Deity where the consciousness of mankind and God reside, the creation of ha>adam in God’s image and likeness is completed. From the final clause of Gen. 2:21 where yhwh God closely joins the creative side of Himself to the human consciousness of dam=blood, through Gen. 3:21 where humankind is again clothed in “skin” yhwh God creates the separate “mind and heart” of Man.
I will stop here for now, as it is late, and you can study what I have written above so tomorrow we can begin exploring the Hebrew Eden Text which pertains to The Ethereal Realm of God.
All the best,
Ger

This message is a reply to:
 Message 271 by Dawn Bertot, posted 04-12-2008 3:05 PM Dawn Bertot has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 273 by Dawn Bertot, posted 04-13-2008 1:15 AM autumnman has replied

Dawn Bertot
Member (Idle past 108 days)
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


Message 273 of 315 (463203)
04-13-2008 1:15 AM
Reply to: Message 272 by autumnman
04-12-2008 10:11 PM


Re: Biblical Heb. Transliteration Convention
Autumnman writes
Within the Ethereal Realm of Deity where the consciousness of mankind and God reside, the creation of ha>adam in God’s image and likeness is completed. From the final clause of Gen. 2:21 where yhwh God closely joins the creative side of Himself to the human consciousness of dam=blood,
AM I understand where you are coming from a word definition standpoint, but wouldnt you call this portion I have qouted from you above, a bit of commentary and conjecture. Not to be facitous but it sounds as though you are making this part up to fit your theory. What do you say.
What I really need is exacally what the BHS text says, verbatum, word for word in readable english. Do you see what I am saying? In other words does the BHS text really say or imply what I have quoted above.
the creation of ha>adam in God’s image and likeness is completed.
In other words I might agree with the deep sleep part of the definiton, but the addition of, saying that some sort of completion of Adams make-up is completed, seem a bit of a strech of the text. Is that really what the text is saying or are you interpreting it from your positon that way.
More in the morning.
D Bertot

This message is a reply to:
 Message 272 by autumnman, posted 04-12-2008 10:11 PM autumnman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 274 by autumnman, posted 04-13-2008 8:40 AM Dawn Bertot has not replied
 Message 275 by autumnman, posted 04-13-2008 9:38 AM Dawn Bertot has replied
 Message 276 by autumnman, posted 04-13-2008 10:25 AM Dawn Bertot has not replied

autumnman
Member (Idle past 5038 days)
Posts: 621
From: Colorado
Joined: 02-24-2008


Message 274 of 315 (463210)
04-13-2008 8:40 AM
Reply to: Message 273 by Dawn Bertot
04-13-2008 1:15 AM


Re: Biblical Heb. Transliteration Convention
bertot: You asked me to "dumb it down" a number of times, so what I have tried to do is first give you a glimpse in lay terms of what I personally perceive the text as conveying. I am more than happy to translate exactly what the BHS text is conveying.
You wrote:
AM I understand where you are coming from a word definition standpoint, but wouldnt you call this portion I have qouted from you above, a bit of commentary and conjecture. Not to be facitous but it sounds as though you are making this part up to fit your theory. What do you say.
What I really need is exacally what the BHS text says, verbatum, word for word in readable english. Do you see what I am saying? In other words does the BHS text really say or imply what I have quoted above.
That is what will now follow. I'm trying to take this project one step at a time. I am glad that you
might agree with the deep sleep part of the definiton
That was the principal part of my previous post.
I again did not receive a "Reply Notification". At the bottom left of this post there is an Email access. Drop me an Email so I can see if I can at least receive "Notification" of that.
I'll get back to you in a little while with what you have requested. Remember, I will take it one or two verses at a time so we can discuss you concerns and insights.
All the best,
Ger
Edited by Admin, : Test edit.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 273 by Dawn Bertot, posted 04-13-2008 1:15 AM Dawn Bertot has not replied

autumnman
Member (Idle past 5038 days)
Posts: 621
From: Colorado
Joined: 02-24-2008


Message 275 of 315 (463216)
04-13-2008 9:38 AM
Reply to: Message 273 by Dawn Bertot
04-13-2008 1:15 AM


Re: Biblical Heb. Transliteration Convention
bertot: Here is a literal translation of Gen. 2:21 & 22.
We will first tackle Gen. 2:21 and 22.
Literally, Gen. 2:21 {BHS} reads:
quote:
And He caused to fall { vayapel abbreviated form of naphal) yhwh God, deep sleep upon the human archetype. And it slept. And He took {vayiqach abbreviated form of laqach) one from His sides {mitzale0othayv) and He closely joined {vayisegor: as a fog or mist) flesh beneath her {thachethenah literally, thachath=underneath, beneath, only in a “transferred sense: in place of, in stead of.
Literally, Gen. 2:22 (BHS} reads:
quote:
And He builds {vayiben abbreviated (apocopated) form of banah) yhwh God, together with {>eth-) the side {hatzela0 definite article prefixed form of tzela0=side never used to denote a “rib” of man or beast) that He took {laqach) on account of {min preposition: from, on account of) the human archetype, into a support {le>ashah substantive: a support, to heal, solace; compare to “helper”), and He brings her unto the “ego of blood” {ha>dam= ha=the, > = first person pronoun prefix “I” {Heb. “anokiy”; Greek/Latin “ego”) of dam= “blood”).
Let’s take these two verses and work through them. I am certain you have a number of questions.
All the best,
Ger
Edited by autumnman, : ah changed to a0

This message is a reply to:
 Message 273 by Dawn Bertot, posted 04-13-2008 1:15 AM Dawn Bertot has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 277 by Dawn Bertot, posted 04-13-2008 11:01 AM autumnman has not replied
 Message 279 by Dawn Bertot, posted 04-14-2008 1:17 AM autumnman has not replied
 Message 281 by Dawn Bertot, posted 04-15-2008 1:19 AM autumnman has replied

autumnman
Member (Idle past 5038 days)
Posts: 621
From: Colorado
Joined: 02-24-2008


Message 276 of 315 (463219)
04-13-2008 10:25 AM
Reply to: Message 273 by Dawn Bertot
04-13-2008 1:15 AM


Re: Biblical Heb. Transliteration Convention
bertot:
I've got to be gone from today (Sunday) until Tuesday or Wednesday.
This will give you a few days to digest what I have shared with you.
Hopefully Admin will have the Bible Study Topic Foum repaired by the time I get back.
I hope your interest in what I am sharing remains with you.
Have a good one,
Ger

This message is a reply to:
 Message 273 by Dawn Bertot, posted 04-13-2008 1:15 AM Dawn Bertot has not replied

Dawn Bertot
Member (Idle past 108 days)
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


Message 277 of 315 (463220)
04-13-2008 11:01 AM
Reply to: Message 275 by autumnman
04-13-2008 9:38 AM


Re: Biblical Heb. Transliteration Convention
AM writes
Let’s take these two verses and work through them. I am certain you have a number of questions.
All the best,
Thanks for setting this out, you have given me alot to consider. I am hoping that one of these other very gifted individuals that has been following this and that has knowledge of the Hebrew will, jump in here as well, ie, ICANT, Jaywill, IAJ. In the mean time I think, I can decifer it and present some interesting questions nonetheless.
I hope you have a good trip. It must be nice to gallivant about here and there, wtih no worries, some of us have actual jobs., Ha Ha.
D Bertot

This message is a reply to:
 Message 275 by autumnman, posted 04-13-2008 9:38 AM autumnman has not replied

Admin
Director
Posts: 13029
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 278 of 315 (463233)
04-13-2008 5:33 PM
Reply to: Message 270 by autumnman
04-12-2008 3:01 PM


Re: Biblical Heb. Transliteration Convention
Okay, I fixed it again, let's keep our fingers crossed.
I've created a new thread for technical issues, please post over there if the problem recurs and I'll poke around in the database: Windsor castle

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
 Message 270 by autumnman, posted 04-12-2008 3:01 PM autumnman has not replied

Dawn Bertot
Member (Idle past 108 days)
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


Message 279 of 315 (463242)
04-14-2008 1:17 AM
Reply to: Message 275 by autumnman
04-13-2008 9:38 AM


Re: Biblical Heb. Transliteration Convention
AM writes
Let’s take these two verses and work through them. I am certain you have a number of questions.
I think my first question would be, does the rest of the BHS text set out the narrative of Adam and Eve in pretty much the same manner as these two verses. I know you want to focus on these two verses first and that is fine. The reason I am asking for the rest of the narrative from the BHS text, is, that it might shed a whole lot of light on these two verses in connection with them being actual events verses a poem with no actual connection with reality.
I think you said in another post that only the Septugiant mentions the Eden narrative. So my question would be that above. How much and to what extent are they similar. You postd a website once I believe that would allow me to read it for myself, but I have misplaced it, as I know it would be to much trouble to type it all out. I simply would like to see them both in thier entirety before we look at specfic verses and definitions of words out of isolated verses, if this is not to much trouble.
Is that agreeable to you?
D Bertot

This message is a reply to:
 Message 275 by autumnman, posted 04-13-2008 9:38 AM autumnman has not replied

Dawn Bertot
Member (Idle past 108 days)
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


Message 280 of 315 (463278)
04-14-2008 10:51 PM
Reply to: Message 265 by jaywill
04-12-2008 8:15 AM


Re: Biblical Heb. Transliteration Convention
Jaywill, I hope this is not an interuption . I was hoping yourself and maybe IANO could take a look at the last posts on the Eden thread of myself and Autumnman, specifically our discourse on Gen 2:21-22. He is away now, but I was hoping you fellas could see anything in the verses that I was missing and what he is specifically getting at. An examination of them by yourselves, could help me see maybe what I am missing and what he might be getting at and your view points. Thanks in advance if you can do this. I know what he is getting at, but you insights would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks
D Bertot

This message is a reply to:
 Message 265 by jaywill, posted 04-12-2008 8:15 AM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 284 by jaywill, posted 04-16-2008 2:01 PM Dawn Bertot has replied

Dawn Bertot
Member (Idle past 108 days)
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


Message 281 of 315 (463296)
04-15-2008 1:19 AM
Reply to: Message 275 by autumnman
04-13-2008 9:38 AM


Re: Biblical Heb. Transliteration Convention
AM quotes
And He took {vayiqach abbreviated form of laqach) one from His sides
What do you {AM} understand this statement to mean, "one of His sides"
and He closely joined {vayisegor: as a fog or mist) flesh beneath her {thachethenah literally, thachath=underneath, beneath, only in a “transferred sense: in place of, in stead of.
Alittle more explanation here as well.
And He builds {vayiben abbreviated (apocopated) form of banah) yhwh God, together with {>eth-) the side {hatzelah definite article prefixed form of tzelah=side never used to denote a “rib” of man or beast) that He took {laqach) on account of {min preposition: from, on account of) the human archetype, into a support {le>ashah substantive: a support, to heal, solace; compare to “helper”),
Do you conclude from this portion, and it, in its context of the two verses, that he is refering indirectly to mans ability to reason and that is its meaning, that God, here means to convey in poetic form? If so, what brings you directly to that conclusion. I dont really see that aspect of mans attributes implied here. But I could be missing something ofcourse though. Will the rest of the narrative reveal this without any real shadow of a doubt.
Is this the conclusion that very many people have come to, is it a widely held view?
[qs]and He brings her unto the “ego of blood” {ha>dam= ha=the, > = first person pronoun prefix “I” {Heb. “anokiy”; Greek/Latin “ego”) of dam=
"Her", here being an attribute of God that he wants to give to man not a literal female, in your view, correct?
Is this the meaning of Adam? "ego of blood". If not what exacally does that mean and what is its application.?
Maybe the rest of the narrative from the BHS, will clear some of what you have tried to translate here, Ill wait for your return. I clearly have much to understand from your point of view.
Thanks
D Bertot

This message is a reply to:
 Message 275 by autumnman, posted 04-13-2008 9:38 AM autumnman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 282 by autumnman, posted 04-15-2008 11:09 PM Dawn Bertot has replied

autumnman
Member (Idle past 5038 days)
Posts: 621
From: Colorado
Joined: 02-24-2008


Message 282 of 315 (463389)
04-15-2008 11:09 PM
Reply to: Message 281 by Dawn Bertot
04-15-2008 1:19 AM


Re: Biblical Heb. Transliteration Convention
bertot:
I am back from helping a friend finish roofing a house.
Tomorrow I'll respond to your previous posts. You asked some very good questions.
I am still hoping that Admin will fix the problems with this thread.
Talk to you in the morning,
Ger

This message is a reply to:
 Message 281 by Dawn Bertot, posted 04-15-2008 1:19 AM Dawn Bertot has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 283 by Dawn Bertot, posted 04-16-2008 1:04 AM autumnman has replied
 Message 286 by Dawn Bertot, posted 04-16-2008 2:57 PM autumnman has replied

Dawn Bertot
Member (Idle past 108 days)
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


Message 283 of 315 (463396)
04-16-2008 1:04 AM
Reply to: Message 282 by autumnman
04-15-2008 11:09 PM


Re: Biblical Heb. Transliteration Convention
AM writes
I am back from helping a friend finish roofing a house.
Yeah right,roofing? When I am goofing off I say I was helping someone Sod thier yard, but you call it what you want, Ha Ha, see you in the morning.
D Bertot

This message is a reply to:
 Message 282 by autumnman, posted 04-15-2008 11:09 PM autumnman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 287 by autumnman, posted 04-16-2008 3:36 PM Dawn Bertot has replied

jaywill
Member (Idle past 1966 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 284 of 315 (463420)
04-16-2008 2:01 PM
Reply to: Message 280 by Dawn Bertot
04-14-2008 10:51 PM


Re: Biblical Heb. Transliteration Convention
Jaywill, I hope this is not an interuption . I was hoping yourself and maybe IANO could take a look at the last posts on the Eden thread of myself and Autumnman, specifically our discourse on Gen 2:21-22. He is away now, but I was hoping you fellas could see anything in the verses that I was missing and what he is specifically getting at. An examination of them by yourselves, could help me see maybe what I am missing and what he might be getting at and your view points. Thanks in advance if you can do this. I know what he is getting at, but you insights would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks
Volumes could be written on Genesis 2:21-22. I will comment briefly and suggest where others can read more if they choose.
The building of Eve from Adam, the wife from the husband, is a little window into the entire divine revelation of the Bible. It is a little prototype of the eternal purpose of God.
In order for God to produce a compliment for Himself as a "romantic" partner, God first became a man - "And the Word became flesh and tabernacled among us" (John 1:14) Romans says that Adam "was a type of Him who was to come" (Rom. 5:14). Therefore the first created man typifies the incarnation of God to be a man.
In Genesis 2:21-22 the deep sleep used for the production of Eve, Adam's counterpart and wife typifies Christ's death on the cross for the producing of the chrch as His counterpart:
Husbands, love your wives even as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself up for her that He might sanctify her, cleansing her by the washing of the water in the word, That He might present the church to Himself glorious, not having spot or wrinkle or anysuch things, but that she wouold be holy and without blemish ... For no man ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, even as Christ also teh church,
Because we are members of His Body.
For this cause a man shall leave his father and his mother and shall be joined to his wife, and the two shall be one flesh. This mystery is great, but I speak with regard to Christ and the church.
See Eph. 5:25-32
Through Christ's death the divine life within Him was released, and through His resurrection His released divine life was imparted into His believers to transform and build them up into the Bride and Wife of Christ, His church, and ultimately the New Jerusalem.
The drawing out of the rib from Adam typifies the drawing out of the divine life from the Son of God. In both instances a wife for the one from whom a part was taken, was built. So we see that in Christ is the second man. He is the last Adam. He is the new Adam and the Head of a new humanity of God-men. The divine life came from Him to produce His counterpart the eternal New Jerusalem which is the enlarged and consummated church.
John 19 shows that the disciple witnessed blood and water coming from the side of Jesus when the soldier pierced His side. If the readers are able to receive it:
1.) The blood signifies redemption.
2.) The water signifies life impartation.
As the rib was extracted from Adam to build for Adam a wife, so blood and water came from the God-man Jesus Christ to both provide redemption and divine life impartation to produce His Wife, the church and ultimately the New Jerusalem in eternity future.
Adam slept. Jesus died. The deep sleep of Adam symbolizes the redemptive life releasing death of Christ.
Through the process of His death and resurrection Christ is wrought into man with His life and nature so that man can be the same as God in life and nature in order to match God as His counterpart.
Furthermore, the rib taken from Adam's opened side typifies the unbreakable, "indestructible" eternal life of Christ.
[Christ] ... appointed according to the power of an indestructible life. (Heb. 7:16)
This indestructible life flowed from the pierced side of Jesus in the blood and water. Out of the wounded side of the Son of God came that which produces and builds up the church as His complement.
God in Christ dies and resurrects to produce and build up a romantic match for Himself. In this way the producing of Eve from Adam is a little window into the producing of the eternal human / divine city of God for eternity future as God's counterpart.
Another point is that the Bible does not say that Eve was created but that she was built. The church is built through transformation from the old nature into the new. Redemption and new birth is only the first step. The mighty prayer of Jesus shows that there is the PROCESS through which the church is perfected into oneness within and with the Triune God:
" That they all may be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us; that the world may believe that You have sent Me.
And the glory which You have given Me I have given to them, that they may be one, even as We are one;
I in them, and You in Me, that they may be PERFECTED into one, that the world may believe that You have sent Me and have loved them even as You have loved Me." (See John 17:21-23 my emphasis)
The full deified collective and corporate entity which God desires to obtain is PERFECTED into one. She is not created automatically mature in this regard. She must pass through the process of being perfected. The perfecting is akin to the building of the woman from the rib of Adam.
On one hand this Mrs. Christ collective is one in Spirir by birth. On the other hand she needs to be perfected that she may "ARRIVE" at a practical oneness. So says the Apostle Paul:
"Be diligent to keep the oneness of the Spirit in the uniting bond of peace" (Eph. 4:4)
" ... the perfecting of the saints unto the work of ministry, unto the BUILDING UP of the Body of Christ, until we all ARRIVE at the oneness of the faith and of the full knowledge of the Son of God, at a full-grown man, at the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ ..." (Eph. 4:12-13)
So we can see that the producing of the wife of Eve included God building a woman from the rib. This was a process rather than instantaneous creation.
And the BUILDING UP of the church to be PERFECTED and to ARRIVE is also a process. This process takes place as the imparted Christ encreases and grows within the born again believers, building them up together and transforming them into the image of Christ from one degree of glory to another degree of glory:
But we all with unveiled face, beholding and reflecting as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, even as from the Lord Spirit. (2 Cor. 3:18)
Christ gets into man as the life giving Spirit in order to transform them with His resurrection and divine eternal life to be like Him. This is to produce a great corporate and aggregate counterpart to match God in life and in nature. Only in the Godhead does God remain the Source and Head of the divine marriage relationship.
The producing of Eve from Adam typifies the producing of the New Jerusalem from the God incarnate Jesus Christ.
With Adam and his wife the one became two. And then the two became one. With Christ and the church it is the same. She comes out of Christ and is brought back to Christ.
She will be presented to Christ without spot, blemish, sin, defect of any kind. The process of building and perfecting cannot be stopped and will produce the outcome that God wills.
Revelation 19:7 and Ephesians 5:27 speak of God';s redeemed people in Christ being brought to Christ for marriage. Surely, the marriage of Adam and his wife typifies this great truth.
The spousal relationship between God and Israel is a part of this development that God works out over the ages.
In Genesis (Heb) Ishsah (2:22,23) is the increase of Adam. The church is the encrease of Christ [b](John 3:29-30). John the Baptist regarded himself as a friend of the bridegroom Christ. He who has the Bride is the bridegroom. Jesus Christ is the Bridegroom. And the coming of the bride to Him is the encrease of Christ. "I must decrease, but He must encrease."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 280 by Dawn Bertot, posted 04-14-2008 10:51 PM Dawn Bertot has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 285 by Dawn Bertot, posted 04-16-2008 2:52 PM jaywill has replied

Dawn Bertot
Member (Idle past 108 days)
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


Message 285 of 315 (463422)
04-16-2008 2:52 PM
Reply to: Message 284 by jaywill
04-16-2008 2:01 PM


Re: Biblical Heb. Transliteration Convention
Jaywill thank you for spending so much time on my request that was very insightful and very impressive. If your not writing for someone, you crtainly should be. I know you are busy around this website and with other things. Thanks a bunch.
D Bertot

This message is a reply to:
 Message 284 by jaywill, posted 04-16-2008 2:01 PM jaywill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 305 by jaywill, posted 04-17-2008 12:05 PM Dawn Bertot has replied

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