Biblical Translation—Eden, 4

AM writes It has always been interesting to see how and why people believe that the words, Belief, Faith and Knowledge are "mutually exclusive", they are not. When I say the scriptures are a source for belief and faith I do not mean to imply they do not involve verifiable facts, they do. Even the simplest approach and understanding would reveal this "fact", no pun intended. Faith and belief can be supported or unsupported, both with things about life and "religion". "Moral codes of Behavior" as you call it should be accepted or rejected by thier supporting evidence,not what someone believes or disbelives about it. It should be the case that the scriptures and its moral code are either demonstratable as Gods word or not. Your baseless contention that the scriptures "as a whole are not a reliable source for historical fact", is simply incorrect as has been demonstrated through the course of this debate. Not only are they reliable as such, most if not all of the evidence that is excavated by archaeologists and historians corroborates the "facts" in the Bible and never seen to discredited it. This is a phenomenonhat cannot be ignored. It is to me one of the "proofs" ofits divine origin.Since you have still not yet produced and ancient text that can boast this type of accuracy, I will consisder you statement as unsupported and incorrect. There is simply to much supporting evidence of the scriptures accuracy, historical corroboration and scientific verification. This my friend is reality.religous faith does require fact and it has it to support it. This is an interesting statement here, it seems to ignore the fact that this is exacally what we have been discussing. I am contending and have been establishing my case that the scriptures DO establish the highest standard of morality. The scriptrues and thier content do establish themselves beyond any reasonable doubt as divine in nature and character. The "proof" you need has already been presented to you. The mere fact that you can ignore said truth, is not an indication that it does not exist.We have not been discussing two seperate issues. To discuss the existence of God, the Eden narrative, or any other religous, philosophical issue, these issues will naturally fall into place as a part of the discussion. I am contending that Faith, Belief and Knowledge can be so intertwined that at times they are indistinguisable. Sometimes however, they are distinctively different, but not always.D Bertot

bertot:Go here and read this:The Argument from the Bible » Internet InfidelsYou may find it interesting.All the best,
Ger

"How a refutation "might" be formulated"., Hmmmmm?AM, Mr Drange really needs to get out more. All of these alleged contradictions have been answered 1000 times over. I will provide you with sites that respond to these so-called inconsistencies.Furthermore did you notice how not a single example was offered from an archaeological standpoint to show how that the Bible is incorrect in its content and claims. All that is left is a misunderstanding of passages and doctrines in thier content. Archaeology always supports the Bible and never shows it to be in error.Most if not every single one of the alleged contradictions has been addressed 1000 times over.Thanks for the article though, to be completly objective though I will continue to review it.D BertotEdited by bertot, : No reason given.

bertot: Actually, it hasn’t! Mr. Snow said:

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Clearly, faith is still involved, because only a relatively small part of the Bible consists of already fulfilled prophecies and historical statements that can be compared against other records or archeological discoveries.

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The Bold font I have inserted indicates the portion of Mr. Snow’s statement I most want you to read and reply to. Actually, that is not an accurate statement! There is considerable archaeological and historical evidence that discredits the Exodus Narration. I will present it in another post. I have enough in the “Biblical Contradiction” phase of this post. Since you are reading the article on the website I the "Biblical Contradiction" phase out of this post. Again. Thanks for going to the website. To you it is one of the “proofs” of the Holy Bible’s divine origin. To me you have not yet made your case. By the way, what is the Hebrew word for “germs”? Surely God told them about “germs”. Please read Leviticus chapters 13 & 14 and tell me how this amounts to divine medical knowledge. You are really missing the point. You have to prove the Holy Bible’s errorless divine accuracy first, and you have not. I have found a Sumerian medical tablet that dates to around 3100 BC. However, before I share its translation with you I need you to help me locate the medical foreknowledge portions of Leviticus. That is not what Mr. Snow said:

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Clearly, faith is still involved, because only a relatively small part of the Bible consists of already fulfilled prophecies and historical statements that can be compared against other records or archeological discoveries.

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Mr. Snow states that “only a relatively small part of the Bible consists of...statements that can be compared against other records or archeological discoveries.” What part of Mr. Snow’s statement do you not understand?Thanks for taking a look at the website I listed. I am looking forward to reading the Christian point of view regarding it.All the best,
Ger

AM writesAs I pointed out before you are taking Mr. Snows statement out of context. When he says Faith is involved he does not mean to the discredidation of the scriptures. Nor is he saying that there is very little archeological information overall. His implication has to do with "historical statements" or claims, not with historical and archaelogical facts over all contained in the scripturessIt might also be helpful if you read the article I gave you on "arcaeology" and respond to some its contents, as I try to do for you. The arcaeological information contained therein is overwhelming and not "small" in any respect. Even if that is what Mr. Snow was saying he would be incorrect., but this is not what he is saying.Ill get to the rest of this post after work and any other thing you wish to present.D Bertot

AM here is a fine one to get us started on the "nature" of alleged contradictions.Page not found - Apologetics PressD Bertot

bertot:I have read the article you shared. It was helpful insofar as attaining a grasp of how you perceive and comprehend the biblical texts. I found it rather interesting that on one hand all the biblical texts are regarded as “God Breathed”, and on the other hand an acknowledgement of”“our inability to solve a difficulty does not mean that it cannot be solved. We simply may not have enough information at present””is given. My question is: Why would there be “a difficulty” in the text if the text were in fact “God Breathed”? It does not make any good sense that a “Holy Spirit Inspired” two thousand year old text would convey “a difficulty” that our present information and knowledge cannot solve. We are, after all, in the first decade of the twenty-first century AD.Theodore M. Drange cites twenty-nine examples of inconsistencies in the biblical texts. Below I cite #27 & #28.

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27. Did Jesus ascend to heaven from Bethany? Lu 24:50-51{yes); (From Mt. Olivet) Ac 1:9-12; (Jerusalem) Mk 16:14-19 {No).
28. Was Jesus the only one to ascend to heaven? John 3:13 {yes); (Enoch and Elijah too) Heb 11:5; 2Ki 2:11{No).

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Luke 24:50-51 states that Jesus ascended to heaven at Bethany, however, Mark 16:14-19 indicates Jerusalem, and Acts 1:9-12 states Mt. Olivet. These are three major inconsistencies in the Gospel Texts. What can account for these types of inconsistencies if indeed the Holy Spirit was guiding these different authors?John 3:13 states: “And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven...” Yet, Gen. 5:24 describes God “taking Enoch”, & Hebrews 11:5 states that Enoch did not see death but was taken {a.k.a. translated him}. 2nd Kings 2:11 also states that “Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.” Clearly there are inconsistencies in these biblical texts. Again, What can account for these types of inconsistencies if indeed the Holy Spirit was guiding these different authors?Let’s just take the two above examples of inconsistencies in the biblical texts and see if they can in fact be resolved in some fashion. Furthermore, I might point out that there is a Topic Heading for this kind of biblical examination; The Bible: Accuracy and Inerrancy. I was hoping to perform Biblical Translation - Eden, but I guess that was not to be. So be it.All the best,
Ger

John 11:18 says what about Jerusalem and Bethany ?"Now Bethany was near Jerusalem, about fifteen stadia away."I would figure that into the ascension location.Concerning Enoch: It is a good question however I don't think we are specifically told WHERE Enoch was taken. He was not found and God took him.Maybe God has more reserved places that we do not know about.Now we can assume that God has only one place to take them. But that is an assumption. Maybe God has more than one place He can whisk away a servant to.That Enoch was raptured is certain. To where he was taken we are not specifically told. We may assume the third heaven. But it may have been to another place that God has reserved about which we don't know much.2 Kings 2:11 says that Elijah was taken in a whirlewind to heaven.So Elijah may have been taken to Heaven. I don't know. Maybe it means he was taken up into the sky and taken somewhere.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

AM, there can be difficulties because of the lack of personal experience with God.Please do not make the assumption that everybody with a fairly keen mind will always understand the Bible. It simply is not like that.This is not a cope out. This is realism. An obedient person will often be more perseptive about the Bible than and disobedient person will. It is a fact of life.So the writing sometimes may be clear, but the proper understanding is more likely to be grasped by one who walks with God.Don't think just because a person is smart and can divide Romans up into sections and make an outline of Genesis that he will be clear about all things written therein.Wisdom in interpreting the word of God comes with walking with God in many instances. Growth and maturity of spiritual life have an effect. This is why we can learn from others.Would you like some examples from my own person life? That is passages that I understood only after some more maturity of spiritual growth.

The Amazing, debating, polemic AM responds, just kidding loser.AM writesAM I am glad you you read DR. Kearleys article, this however, is not the one to which I was refering.http://www.biblehistory.net/biblical_archaeology.htmThis is the one that I wanted you to examine. The one with all the wonderful data and presentation. It is filed with the archaeological info you seek.Dr. Kearley was a friend of my father. Now this is a perfect example of how alleged contradictions are often applied and misunderstood. If someone 1000 years from now was to look at what I said about Dr. Kearly, they would say, hey wait a minute that is a contradiction. The father to which I refer, his name was Jackson, not actually, but I dont want to give it away on a website. But lets say it was Jackson. Someone would say how could he be Bertots Father. When in fact he was my "foster Father", the last name is completly different. But in the Text I simply said he was my Father, both are which are true however. Sometimes it is a misunderstanding this simple that arouses a percieved contradiction in the mind of a skeptic. Enough about my nutty family.Am I am going to provide you with several websites to begin with, you are really going to love the first one. The principle behind doing this is to show you that my contention about these things being answered 1000 times over is true. Or we can play the ole, you set them up and Ill knock them down game, which could take forever and not enough threads. I will do that if you wish but I would rather not.There are literally hundreds and hundreds of books written on the topic as well to which I can refer you as well.Debate Topics: Apologetic
http://www.carm.org/bible_difficulties.htm
Page not found - Apologetics PressThese will get you started. The one about the ascension is in there as well. There are simple no alleged contradictions that cannot be resolved. Thousands of fine scholarly men and women over the years have eliminated all but the copists errors in explanation of the texts.More in a minuteD Bertot

Jaywill writes: Remember Jesus telling the thief on the cross, "today you will be with me in paradise". And at another time the scripture says in Acts chapter 2. "I will not leave my sons soul in Hell" (actually Hades in the Greek). But then on his ressurection he told Mary "do not touch me for I have not yet ascended to the Father"., and ofcourse the Father would be in heaven. So Christ "went and preached to the souls that were in prison" (hades).From Luke 16. Which we do not consder a parable but a true story we get an insight into the Hadean world. Paradise and a waiting torment. This is the only story where Jesus uses proper and specific names, indicating maybe this is real and not a parable. Abraham says there is a great gulf fixed. It is this place to which Christ refered when speaking to the thief on the cross and would explain his statment about not being touched because he had not yet ascended to the father. After his ascentision he then went to sit at the right hand of the father.Elijah however, was taken to the hadean world where Abraham his Spiritual father was also.There is no contradiction here either.I am sure I am not giving a person with your knowledge any new information, however. But I hope it helps. Or you simply may not agree. I would be interested to know, thanksD Bertot

bertot:

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Christians readily admit, however, that there have been 'scribal errors' in the copies of the Old and New Testament. It is beyond the capability of anyone to avoid any and every slip of the pen in copying page after page from any book, sacred or secular. Yet we may be sure that the original manuscript (better known as autograph) of each book of the Bible, being directly inspired by God, was free from all error. Those originals, however, because of the early date of their inception no longer exist.

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So, the original manuscripts {a.k.a. autographs, or originals} of each book of the Bible no longer exist, but they were all error free? How can anyone make such a claim with a straight face? We are not talking about “scribal errors”! {Which should not exist either if the English Holy Bible is to be regarded as Holy Spirit guided and/or inspired}. We are discussing at this point two separate examples of absolute “Textual Inconsistencies”! Again, they are as follows:

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AM wrote: Luke 24:50-51 states that Jesus ascended to heaven at Bethany, however, Mark 16:14-19 indicates Jerusalem, and Acts 1:9-12 states Mt. Olivet. These are three major inconsistencies in the Gospel Texts. What can account for these types of inconsistencies if indeed the Holy Spirit was guiding these different authors?

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AM wrote: John 3:13 states: “And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven...” Yet, Gen. 5:24 describes God “taking Enoch”, & Hebrews 11:5 states that Enoch did not see death but was taken {a.k.a. translated} him. 2nd Kings 2:11 also states that, “Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.” Clearly there are inconsistencies in these biblical texts. Again, What can account for these types of inconsistencies if indeed the Holy Spirit was guiding these different authors?

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It is incredibly obvious that Luke does not agree with Mark or Acts, in the first example, and that John does not agree with Gen. or Hebrews, or 2nd Kings, in the second example. Either God and/or the Holy Spirit made a number of grievous mistakes, or human beings made these “Textual Inconsistencies”. Either the English Holy Bible is “God Breathed” or it is not.Making up more superstitious stories will not resolve the two above examples of “Textual Inconsistencies” that exist in the English Holy Bible. Inventing or contriving a “supernatural” solution for these obvious “Textual Inconsistencies” is nothing more than an expression of one’s inability to resolve the above “Textual Inconsistencies” in a rational, reasonable, literate, and knowledgeable fashion. Either the English Holy Bible is blemish free or it is with blemish. It certainly appears as though the English Holy Bible is with more than one blemish. If God is without blemish and would not either inspire or guide the reproduction of a God-inspired literary document that was with blemish, then it appears as though human beings performed the “Textual Inconsistencies” we are currently examining. Thus, the English Holy Bible cannot honestly be said to be “God Breathed”!Let’s either resolve the above “Textual Inconsistencies” in a reasonable fashion or let’s admit that they exist.All the best,
Ger

The first thing I would encourage you to do is read the evidence provided in the articles and websites i provided, apearently you havent.
Secondly, I would ask you to adjust your attitude and stop acting so abusive and simply respond to the information providedThe answer I provided in the Gospels, Acts and Luke fully explain from a scriptural context that there was a place to which Elijah, Enoch, Lazarus and the rich man went that was not strickly heaven, but a place in the spirit world that would be considered a heavenly place."today you will be with me in paradise"
"Do not touch me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father"Since the father is clearly in heaven, it would follow that this is not where Christ went.
Again, Luke chapter 16 gives us a glimps of that hadean world. The greek word for "grave", 'Hades', the place of disembodied spirits, is the place to which these OT charaters were translated.
It should not concern anyone that the text says they went to heaven. the arthor is simply using the term to mean "all" of the spirit world, instead a specific part, AS FURTHER DESCRIBED IN THE NT SCRIPTURES.Peter says that "Christ went and preached to the spirits prison, that Were once disobedient in the time of Noah" I Peter 3:18-20After his ascension he sat at the right hand of the father, which is in heaven.Paul used the word "heaven" to desribe more than one specific place., I was caught up into the third heaven" 2Cor 12:2Looking into the NT and the information provided, it is understandable that it (NT) makes clearer and gives an better understanding that was not made known in the Old Testament. In this case it gives us a better understanding of the Spirit World.There is no contradiction about "no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that that came down from heaven". The NT makes it clear by the passages I provided that "pardaise" is not heaven (the exact dwelling place of the throne of God)itself, but a part of the spirit world that the OT and NT writes through inspiration of the Holy Spirit made known by specification and indirect implication of the statements and situations presented. There are certainly different locations in the universe, such as galaxies and space and time itself, why could there not be specific and different loccations in the heavenly or spiritual realms as well?Instead of crying "foul" and calling it "superstious stories" AM why not just deal with the argument I presented directly, show why my exegesis is incorrect in post 236.Here are others that answers the questions more specifically.It really would help if you respond to the arguments presented and stop crying foul.http://www.carm.org/questions/Jesus_go.htm
http://www.carm.org/diff/John3_13.htm.D BertotEdited by bertot, : No reason given.Edited by bertot, : Specific clarification, in the distinction of locations in a given area.

bertot:John 3:13 “and no one has gone up into the heaven {ouranon: the vaulted expanse of the sky with all the things visible in it; the region above the sidereal / starry heavens, the seat of an order of things eternal and consummately perfect, where God dwells and the other heavenly beings.”The Greek term employed in John 3:13 is essentially identical to the Hebrew term used in 2nd Kings 2:1 shamayim: dual of an unused singular; heavens {sky where birds fly & space where stars shine). As well as “the abode of God.”In either case, “one must ascend” to get there. In Acts 2:27 the Greek term for Hell {Aides or Hades: denotes the “underworld”, or “the nether world, the realm of the dead” “nether” means; lower or under”the very depths of the earth. In classical Greek Myths “infernal” also denotes the “underworld.”“One does not ascend to that which is nether.”Therefore, because Elijah is said to have “ascended” {Heb. — ’alah} with the LORD {Heb. YHWH into “the heavens” {Heb. ha shamayim} your above statement makes absolutely no sense what so ever.Heavens or Heaven denotes “above” and any description of Hades denotes “below”. The above is my response to post # 236. My attitude is not one of “acting abusive”. I am trying to respond to your posts and make my point in as straightforward a fashion as I can. My point remains the same. I sense that your superstition {not meant in an abusive way, but in stating the fact that facts are not contained in discussing the supernatural} does not allow you to respond in a rational or reasonable fashion. We really need to get the concepts of “above” and “below” clear in our minds; they are rational opposites.All the best,
Ger

AM, you simply are missing the point. Its from a scripturl point you are building your case against us, that naturally would involve the supernatural. If you wish to discuss it outside that context, that is a whole other debate. You are mixing oranges with appples. You cannot charge an allegation from a source and not expect a response form the same source. My responses have been scriptural and equal to your allegation. Try to atleast make logical sense. You are making no logical sense here. This kind of a response is completly silly, due to the fact "nether" could be anywhere or in any direction in the spiritual world. Jesus said "today you will be with me in paradise". Now since you have never been there what difference would it make how they got there. Atleast try and respond to the context of the argument without being so literal and silly. Who knows what direction or how one gets to Paradise, we only know from scripture that it was where Jesus went and it was NOT the exact place of the throne of God, yet still in the heavenly realms.You still have not answered any scriptural or logical sense the argument presented. It demonstrates there is no contradiction .in John and other versesI will get to the rest of your post after work tonite.D Bertot