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Author Topic:   What is the evolutionary advantage to religion?
contracycle
Inactive Member


Message 137 of 167 (174080)
01-05-2005 11:31 AM
Reply to: Message 136 by Quetzal
01-05-2005 10:50 AM


quote:
The most sexually oriented species on the planet, bar none. Also the least aggressive primate.
What about the dolphins? They seem to engage in a lot of sex-play too, to the point of "frolicking" with humans, according to some reports.

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Quetzal
Member (Idle past 5862 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 138 of 167 (174345)
01-06-2005 9:17 AM
Reply to: Message 137 by contracycle
01-05-2005 11:31 AM


Hi contra,
Quite a few species seem to "enjoy" sex. The reason I listed bonobos as the "most sexual" species is that the vast majority of their social interactions are sexual in nature. It is literally the main thread that weaves the society together. See, for example, any of Frans de Waal's work, some of which may be on-line. In fact, here's one: (a reprint of a Scientific American article by de Waal: Bonobo Sex and Society). Now, I don't agree with de Waal that bonobo society has much if anything to do with human behavioral evolution, but his look at bonobos is very interesting.

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 Message 139 by Andya Primanda, posted 01-06-2005 9:54 AM Quetzal has replied

  
Andya Primanda
Inactive Member


Message 139 of 167 (174358)
01-06-2005 9:54 AM
Reply to: Message 138 by Quetzal
01-06-2005 9:17 AM


are Bonobos still there?
OT, Quetzal, do you think bonobos still exist?
I thought I read recently in New Scientist/Scientific American that a recent thorough survey of the bonobos' home-range failed to find any of them.
If this is true then it is really disturbing...

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Quetzal
Member (Idle past 5862 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 140 of 167 (174423)
01-06-2005 12:30 PM
Reply to: Message 139 by Andya Primanda
01-06-2005 9:54 AM


Re: are Bonobos still there?
I "think" so, but I don't "know". The report you referenced concerned a survey of 1/3 of Salongo National Park (the only protected bonobo reserve) in Congo. No live bonobos were discovered. However, as of December last year, WWF believes there may be around 10,000 still living in other parts of the reserve and the country. Note: this may not be sustainable, even if they're not all extinct.
It would indeed be a great tragedy. Our nearest living relatives wiped off the face of the Earth through human ignorance and need. Part and parcel of the wonderful legacy we are leaving our children.

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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1395 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 141 of 167 (174555)
01-06-2005 11:35 PM
Reply to: Message 140 by Quetzal
01-06-2005 12:30 PM


Re: are Bonobos still there?
yes, I googled and found news@nature.com article on it
Bonobos face extinction | Nature
same information as you give
If the bonobo does die out completely, we will have to say goodbye to perhaps our closest animal relative. The news from Salonga comes 75 years after P. paniscus was officially recognized as a distinct species from the more widespread common chimpanzee (P. troglodytes).
sad.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
{{{Buddha walks off laughing with joy}}}

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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1395 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 142 of 167 (174570)
01-07-2005 12:49 AM


SUMMARY of on topic responses so far:
This is just a short list to try to condense the concepts discussed so far on the question

What is the evolutionary advantage to religion?

* For the purveyor of snake oil, the fruits of other peoples legitimate labours (Contracycle, #4)
* Religion is a quick and easy way to get a moral system going in order to have a working society.(Lam, #7)
* because he had many more offspring. IMO religion also an advantage in battle. (Gilgamesh, #9)
* we creat ways of comforting ourselves... so religion is a way for us to avoid that double bladed evolution. (PerfectDeath, #12)
* more tight-knit against a community with no common belief. In the days of bands, tribes, and city-states, this could be a large advantage. (Andya Primanda, #13)
* when those individuals are faithful and are working together cohesively, the group or society will be stronger and better protected from outside threats (Thor, #49)
* In the long run, it's not about belief. It's about being with people with similar views. (robinrohan, #63)
* (genocide good?) It is for the group that wins. (schrafinator, #67)
* Religion if anything provides justification for genocide. (Quetzal, #76)
* relatively stupid, unified people, fearing things and avoiding what they do not understand as opposed to taming them (in both physical and philosophical terms)may well be better equipped for the stoicism required for survival (Sisyphus, #82)
* males are dominant and aggressive and try to find ways to control the females ... some religions have formed ways to "control" females. (PerfectDeath, #92)
* If you control the female, you control who impregnates her, and therefore who's genes get passed on. (schrafinator, #97)
* in pre-scientific societies, the combination of religious and secular governance provides a very strong cohesive society. (Quetzal, #109)
* is there an evolutionary advantage to belief? Does it matter what belief is being professed? (Phatboy, #115)
* We have a predisposition to belief and faith due to the side effects of other evolved traits ... and ... Unscrupulous, self-interested people who ... get an easy ride off the rest of the people (RAZD, #120)
* we do NOT have to look at religion as if it had to provide a benefit to the whole society. It can prevail within the society even if it benefits only a minority group, if that minority group have sufficient social authority to establish and maintain it. (Contracycle, #126)
* people like to follow... mainly because we are cognitive misers... and because of that we almost cry out for a leader. (PerfectDeath, #127)
* Christians are often guilty of groupthink because nobody wants to rock the proverbial boat. (Ark?) (Phatboy, #130)
* sex usually works for me to reduce anxiety, (and maybe for the bonobos too?) ... one wonders how close "religious experience" is to sexual physionomic response ... (RAZD, #132)


I think we've generated som pretty good concepts here, and fairly congenially to boot.
What do you posters think are the more likely strong factors involved?

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
{{{Buddha walks off laughing with joy}}}

Replies to this message:
 Message 144 by EZscience, posted 05-15-2005 11:01 AM RAZD has not replied
 Message 145 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 05-17-2005 7:28 PM RAZD has replied
 Message 150 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 05-17-2005 9:33 PM RAZD has replied

  
AdminNosy
Administrator
Posts: 4754
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Joined: 11-11-2003


Message 143 of 167 (175575)
01-10-2005 4:39 PM


Thread moved here from the Biological Evolution II forum.

  
EZscience
Member (Idle past 5144 days)
Posts: 961
From: A wheatfield in Kansas
Joined: 04-14-2005


Message 144 of 167 (208345)
05-15-2005 11:01 AM
Reply to: Message 142 by RAZD
01-07-2005 12:49 AM


Re: SUMMARY of on topic responses so far:
I have already posted some of my thoughts on this subject here so I won't repeat them, but I see many contributors have made similar inferences.
One I might add is the following:
A species-level inferiority complex.
Perhaps humans, in creating religion, have found an intellectually appealing way to abdicate their responsibility for sustaining the biosphere. If there is a God who rules all things with a guiding purpose, then humans are not 'in charge' and maybe then not responsible for the fate of other living things and the planet as a whole.
The atheist would say that we are and then labor under that onerous responsibility.
This message has been edited by EZscience, 05-15-2005 10:01 AM
This message has been edited by EZscience, 05-15-2005 10:03 AM

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Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3038 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 145 of 167 (209142)
05-17-2005 7:28 PM
Reply to: Message 142 by RAZD
01-07-2005 12:49 AM


Re: SUMMARY of on topic responses so far:
RAZD: What is the evolutionary advantage to religion?
Are you insulting TEists or am I not understanding this ?
Ray M.

This message is a reply to:
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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1395 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 146 of 167 (209157)
05-17-2005 8:30 PM
Reply to: Message 145 by Cold Foreign Object
05-17-2005 7:28 PM


Re: SUMMARY of on topic responses so far:
no insult intended. the question comes down to if evolution is the cause behind the diversity of life, why do we have religion: what is the advantage that religion gives that ensures it's survival?
for the theistic evolutionist (I presume that is what you mean by TEist) the question is still valid: just because there is a hand behind the scenes on the evolution of species does not preclude the thoughts of the conscious individual.
what's your take?

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 Message 145 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 05-17-2005 7:28 PM Cold Foreign Object has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 147 by Sylas, posted 05-17-2005 8:54 PM RAZD has replied
 Message 148 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 05-17-2005 9:08 PM RAZD has not replied

  
Sylas
Member (Idle past 5250 days)
Posts: 766
From: Newcastle, Australia
Joined: 11-17-2002


Message 147 of 167 (209162)
05-17-2005 8:54 PM
Reply to: Message 146 by RAZD
05-17-2005 8:30 PM


Re: SUMMARY of on topic responses so far:
no insult intended. the question comes down to if evolution is the cause behind the diversity of life, why do we have religion: what is the advantage that religion gives that ensures it's survival?
My take is that this thread encapsulates a classic error. It effectively makes the ultra-adaptionist presumption that every feature has to convey some "advantage" for it to persist.
Many things effectively come along for the ride; and many features of organisms are not inherited. It's really dubious to presume that every feature must have an advantage if we just look hard enough, and its especially dubious to look for "evolutionary" advantages in cultural phenomena.
Cheers -- Sylas

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 Message 146 by RAZD, posted 05-17-2005 8:30 PM RAZD has replied

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Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3038 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 148 of 167 (209169)
05-17-2005 9:08 PM
Reply to: Message 146 by RAZD
05-17-2005 8:30 PM


Re: SUMMARY of on topic responses so far:
why do we have religion: what is the advantage that religion gives that ensures it's survival?
Existence of the Deity ?
RM

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Ben!
Member (Idle past 1389 days)
Posts: 1161
From: Hayward, CA
Joined: 10-14-2004


Message 149 of 167 (209173)
05-17-2005 9:12 PM
Reply to: Message 148 by Cold Foreign Object
05-17-2005 9:08 PM


Re: SUMMARY of on topic responses so far:
Are you saying that belief in a God that exists provides a selective advantage in this lifetime? By what mechanism?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 148 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 05-17-2005 9:08 PM Cold Foreign Object has replied

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Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3038 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 150 of 167 (209179)
05-17-2005 9:33 PM
Reply to: Message 142 by RAZD
01-07-2005 12:49 AM


Re: SUMMARY of on topic responses so far:
For the purveyor of snake oil, the fruits of other peoples legitimate labours (Contracycle, #4)
Secular rant.
Religion is a quick and easy way to get a moral system going in order to have a working society.(Lam, #7)
Show me a quick and easy religion ?
Unheard of cults do not count.
when those individuals are faithful and are working together cohesively, the group or society will be stronger and better protected from outside threats (Thor, #49)
Logical.
Religion if anything provides justification for genocide. (Quetzal, #76)
Then what excuse did the Marxists of the Soviet Union, China, and Southeast Asia have ? (100 million murdered in the 20th century)
Of course, Marxist is a euphemism in this case.
relatively stupid, unified people, fearing things and avoiding what they do not understand as opposed to taming them (in both physical and philosophical terms)may well be better equipped for the stoicism required for survival (Sisyphus, #82)
Predictible Darwinian rant.
males are dominant and aggressive and try to find ways to control the females ... some religions have formed ways to "control" females. (PerfectDeath, #92)
But if we descend from apes/gorillas.....
sex usually works for me to reduce anxiety, (and maybe for the bonobos too?) ... one wonders how close "religious experience" is to sexual physionomic response ... (RAZD, #132)
As old as the prostitutes who gave themself in the Temple of Diana.
RM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 142 by RAZD, posted 01-07-2005 12:49 AM RAZD has replied

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Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3038 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 151 of 167 (209180)
05-17-2005 9:35 PM
Reply to: Message 149 by Ben!
05-17-2005 9:12 PM


Re: SUMMARY of on topic responses so far:
Are you saying that belief in a God that exists provides a selective advantage in this lifetime? By what mechanism?
Define "selective" in this context ?
RM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 149 by Ben!, posted 05-17-2005 9:12 PM Ben! has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 157 by Ben!, posted 05-17-2005 9:59 PM Cold Foreign Object has replied

  
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